Gods

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Gods
« on: December 21, 2009, 10:38:28 AM »
I have read the bible cover to cover. Is there anything in it that actually says there is only one god? The commandment says you can't worship any other gods but I didn't see anything that about believing in them. in short can you be a Christin and believe in other gods as long as you don't pray to them?
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Jack1704

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Re: Gods
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 10:44:05 AM »
I really want to read the bible but there are more realistic works of fiction that i would persevere with.
Stop all this nonesense and bring on the lapdancers.
I understand Jack1704. It's a Brit thing.

Re: Gods
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 10:47:58 AM »
I really want to read the bible but there are more realistic works of fiction that i would persevere with.
I used to have to go to a religion class every Wednesday. believe it or not the bible was more entertaining then listening to the teacher talk about how all our animals don't have souls so aren't in heaven and how if we are evil god will destroy our soul because he loves us to much to torture us. it was in 4th grade though so I may have missed something in it.
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parsec

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Re: Gods
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 10:51:58 AM »
Did you browse through any of the pages between the covers?

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Jack1704

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Re: Gods
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 10:55:59 AM »
I really want to read the bible but there are more realistic works of fiction that i would persevere with.
I used to have to go to a religion class every Wednesday. believe it or not the bible was more entertaining then listening to the teacher talk about how all our animals don't have souls so aren't in heaven and how if we are evil god will destroy our soul because he loves us to much to torture us. it was in 4th grade though so I may have missed something in it.
Apologies for my sarcastic tone. I personally do not beieve in god but due to the time of year my childrens school TELLS them about Jesus and God etc. Now i would never dream of telling my kids what to believe or imposing my views on them but i have to put up with it from their teachers.

Once again apologies and sorry if i have derailed this slightly.
Stop all this nonesense and bring on the lapdancers.
I understand Jack1704. It's a Brit thing.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Gods
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2009, 11:00:13 AM »
:)

"I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour."
[The Bible, Isaiah 43:11]
        
"I am Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 45:5]
        
"I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 46:9]
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

Re: Gods
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2009, 01:31:45 PM »
thank you for the quick response just a couple things
:)

"I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour."
[The Bible, Isaiah 43:11]
        
This one I see more he is saying that nothing can save you. that could mean that other gods just wouldn't help us right?
:)


       
"I am Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 45:5]
       
Just checked a few different translations of this. some say beside me. which could mean that nothing is working with him.

:)

       
"I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 46:9]
this one however I have been looking up and I think is as irrefutable as anything can be from a translated text. thank you for the research.
 :)
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theonlydann

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Re: Gods
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2009, 01:40:45 PM »
Well... not to be nitpicky... but that could just mean he is a unique God... kind of like Zues Hades etc were all Gods, but werent alike.

I dunno.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gods
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2009, 10:14:37 PM »
If he is the one true god and creator of everything, than why is he only concerned with the israelites in the OT?  I never got that personally.  He apparently condoned the israelites to slaughter other people without mercy, rape their women and children, etc.  Why would he condone such actions against his own creations?

My conclusion is that God was used as a justification of their own immorality, ie: it was okay for them to do these terrible things because they believed that God was on their side.

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Mykael

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Re: Gods
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2009, 10:47:22 PM »
My conclusion is that God was used as a justification of their own immorality, ie: it was okay for them to do these terrible things because they believed that God was on their side.
Change "was" to "is", and this pretty much describes the American Religious Right. I like.

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Optimus Prime

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Re: Gods
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2009, 12:25:49 AM »
My only problem with that whole argument is that there are too many references throughout the bible, especially in it's 'beginnings' where God refers to himself as "We" or "Us" or some other variant of a pluralistic nature.

Yeah yeah I know all the different theories about how he must just be referring to himself as the Holy Trinity, therefore 'We' would fit... I can't buy that in all the different ways it is used.

I think it speaks for itself - if not, I'm happy to break out my big pretty bible here and look up the passages if I have to.

Anyway - something to ponder as far as the singular God .. or is he?

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Gods
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2009, 08:26:37 AM »
'You shall have no gods before me, for I am a jealous god.'


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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gods
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2009, 10:33:17 AM »
'You shall have no gods before me, for I am a jealous god.'

"for I am a jealous god" implies that there are other gods that may not be jealous. 

Re: Gods
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2009, 10:37:03 AM »
'You shall have no gods before me, for I am a jealous god.'


exactly. this quote seems to imply that you can't have any gods in a higher place then him. you can still believe in them just not put them above him.
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parsec

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Re: Gods
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2009, 10:41:13 AM »
I have read the bible cover to cover. Is there anything in it that actually says there is only one god? The commandment says you can't worship any other gods but I didn't see anything that about believing in them. in short can you be a Christin and believe in other gods as long as you don't pray to them?

I Googled other gods in bible and this was the first website on the list:


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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Gods
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2009, 10:42:29 AM »
'You shall have no gods before me, for I am a jealous god.'


exactly. this quote seems to imply that you can't have any gods in a higher place then him. you can still believe in them just not put them above him.

Notice the later in the chronology of the Bible you go the less polytheistic it seems to be? Perhaps it represents a changing attitude in theology in the area at the time?

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Gods
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2009, 11:17:46 AM »
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This one I see more he is saying that nothing can save you. that could mean that other gods just wouldn't help us right?

That's true, that's what that God is saying, so no matter how many gods we believe in and how much we pray to them they wouldn't help most likely because according to that god they are "Not Gods" or "False Gods" thus in the day of judgment only God is the right and true god is there others can't save us. Also it could mean that those status people were used to worship they can't save you nor hurt you it's only him who can do that.

The quotes I brought simply is giving us the message that there is only one "True God" and that One God there nothing like him. That concept of God actually is the right concept of God because naturally we as a human we wouldn't worship a god where there can be many other beings like him or in par with that god, also if there was more than One True God we humans would be in a mess. Because each god will ask the servant a certain thing so instead of making the life of humans a happy life it would only make his life a miserable one.

If Christian are believing believe in that above God, as the only "True God" where there is nothing like him then I join them in that believe that I am a believer of that god. However, the problem is that Christians might be confused because they read such clear statements from their gods then in some other pages he reads something that contradicts that concept.

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My only problem with that whole argument is that there are too many references throughout the bible, especially in it's 'beginnings' where God refers to himself as "We" or "Us" or some other variant of a pluralistic nature.

Well if you know the original language of the book then it's not a problem. I am an Arabian and in the Arabic Language, a King or a great man when he talks he says: "We" or "Us"...etc Arab use that when referring to great king and not to a group of people.

Quote
exactly. this quote seems to imply that you can't have any gods in a higher place then him. you can still believe in them just not put them above him.

I am not going to say I understood what that od truly meant but I think he said jelous meaning don't worship anyone beside me that's why used the word jealous. For example if I was a jelous person and wanted my friend to love me only, I wouldn't accept her/him to love another person I want him to give all his attention and focus to me only. Another example can be used is that if I was your king and you are my servant, I gave you everything you needed and you are saying thanks to another person it would anger me, because it's only me who deserve thanks because its me who gave you everything why you are thanking someone else.

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If he is the one true god and creator of everything, than why is he only concerned with the israelites in the OT?

That's because the Old Testament (Turah) is the book revealed to Prophet Moses peace be upon him, and Moses was sent to Israelis so it's natural it's focused on them. However God do only "Godly" things, if you found anything in the OT that's not godly be sure it's not a God's words or actions.

Peace
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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Optimus Prime

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Re: Gods
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2009, 12:51:17 PM »
Well if you know the original language of the book then it's not a problem. I am an Arabian and in the Arabic Language, a King or a great man when he talks he says: "We" or "Us"...etc Arab use that when referring to great king and not to a group of people.

What exactly does that have to do with god using the same terminologies? Are you inferring that god is specifically Arabian? I ask in all seriousness I am not trying to be coy here. If it is supposed to be a literal translation - then I do not see the correlation. If it is officially admitted that it is entirely speculative interpretation... then I can see the similarities as god is viewed as the 'king of kings'.

Thank you,
- Optimus

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Gods
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2009, 01:09:44 PM »
Quote

What exactly does that have to do with god using the same terminologies? Are you inferring that god is specifically Arabian? I ask in all seriousness I am not trying to be coy here. If it is supposed to be a literal translation - then I do not see the correlation. If it is officially admitted that it is entirely speculative interpretation... then I can see the similarities as god is viewed as the 'king of kings'.

Thank you,
- Optimus


Yes I am saying God when he is speaking to Arab he will use their language, when he speak to Israel's ppl he will use their language, when he talks to Hindu he will speak their language. Naturally when we want to guide or warn someone we will use the language they understand. I am not saying he is Arabian or English or Israeli...etc As for the translation of God's words some translators take benefits of that and they try to change God's words and what he meant. The base is that Almighty God only says "Godly Words" or "Godly Actions" if you found ungodly words be sure it's not originally the word of God. Like some words used in the Bible we feel ashamed to let our wife or daughters to even read them for example the sexy language in Ezekiel and the disgusting command to Ezekiel and many more.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 01:21:57 PM by AbdulAziz »
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Gods
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2009, 04:56:07 AM »
Hang on, Abdul. That's the 'no true scotsman' fallacy applied to god. Define 'godly behaviour' until you've done that you have just admitted that the holy books are up to personal interpretation.

For instance I wouldn't consider the creation of Hell to be godly, you would.

By what measure do you decide what was god's word and what wasn't?

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Gods
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2009, 10:03:48 AM »
Hang on, Abdul. That's the 'no true scotsman' fallacy applied to god. Define 'godly behaviour' until you've done that you have just admitted that the holy books are up to personal interpretation.

For instance I wouldn't consider the creation of Hell to be godly, you would.

By what measure do you decide what was god's word and what wasn't?

Chris the base is that anything we human can't accept for ourselves or any of the other creatures we shouldn't accept that to God. Any perfection a human have God is first one to have that perfection. God telling a lie, being unjust, making a mistake, forgetting things, or having any such human failings. Similarly God can do injustice if He chooses to, but He will never do it because being unjust is an ungodly act.

In almost every Holy Scripture in the world we find one concept of God, The One and Only. the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten And there is none like unto Him. These same attributes you will find it in OT, NT, Quran, Hindu's scriptures in Zoroastrianism...etc

So once we see a God needs sleep & rest we know that's not a true god or someone is trying to insult that god. Once we find a God contradicting himself we immediately know that he is not a true God and so on.

As for what's right and what's not right I described in my previous posts. Now everyone knows killing for no reason is not a good act, if you ask scholar, student, young, old, women they all agree it's a wrong act. There are things in this world no human have different opinion if he is sane. So same thing goes for Hell, Heaven, Punishment, Reward...etc Just because some ignorant does having a different opinion it doesn't mean the whole world will have different opinions.

Ask your kids if you have any and tell them if someone killed your brother for no reason, shall we give him a good reward or we should punish him!?

Peace
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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Optimus Prime

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Re: Gods
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2009, 12:05:51 PM »
Quote

What exactly does that have to do with god using the same terminologies? Are you inferring that god is specifically Arabian? I ask in all seriousness I am not trying to be coy here. If it is supposed to be a literal translation - then I do not see the correlation. If it is officially admitted that it is entirely speculative interpretation... then I can see the similarities as god is viewed as the 'king of kings'.

Thank you,
- Optimus


Yes I am saying God when he is speaking to Arab he will use their language, when he speak to Israel's ppl he will use their language, when he talks to Hindu he will speak their language. Naturally when we want to guide or warn someone we will use the language they understand. I am not saying he is Arabian or English or Israeli...etc As for the translation of God's words some translators take benefits of that and they try to change God's words and what he meant. The base is that Almighty God only says "Godly Words" or "Godly Actions" if you found ungodly words be sure it's not originally the word of God. Like some words used in the Bible we feel ashamed to let our wife or daughters to even read them for example the sexy language in Ezekiel and the disgusting command to Ezekiel and many more.


So what does any of that have to do with confirming whether or not the bible is *written* from an Arabian perspective or not? That was my question as I am not a biblical scholar - did god speak to those who wrote the bible in Arabic? Or I guess I should ask, were the people who wrote the bible Arabian, and therefore would have written down god's word in such a pluralistic fashion?

Thank you,
- Optimus
Dyslexics are teople poo!

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Re: Gods
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2009, 12:12:18 PM »
God didn't speak to people in Arabic. He spoke in Hebrew and some Arabian merchant in the seventh century decided it would be a good idea to translate the Old Testament into Arabic and unite the Beduin tribes in a strong empire under the excuse they are fullfilling God's will.

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Optimus Prime

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Re: Gods
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2009, 12:22:53 PM »
God didn't speak to people in Arabic. He spoke in Hebrew and some Arabian merchant in the seventh century decided it would be a good idea to translate the Old Testament into Arabic and unite the Beduin tribes in a strong empire under the excuse they are fullfilling God's will.

Thank you. That is what I was looking for, especially the part in bold because that is what I thought, but I didn't want to go blabbing without any kind of peer information on this topic.

Therefore my original comment still stands because it is not just the 'King James' version of the bible, but even those that have supposedly directly translated from the Hebrew texts (How do I know? I don't - I can only take the word of those who can translate. So if it's a lie then it is. Pick your potion) There is still a pluralistic nature to god's commentary in a few spots in the bible inferring that he is either not the only god, but is stressing the people treat him as singular; or at the very least is not alone in some fashion. What that is I surely cannot say, but it raises questions in my opinion.

Take care,
- Optimus
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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Gods
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2009, 01:20:46 PM »
You're all wrong. God speaks English, like all civilised men.
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babsinva

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Re: Gods
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2009, 07:04:20 PM »
To Parsec, Abdul, Optimus, and Chris ...  I guess it depends on what religion you are and what you believe; however, still much of this is incorrect.

That's because the Old Testament (Turah) is the book revealed to Prophet Moses peace be upon him, and Moses was sent to Israelis so it's natural it's focused on them. However God do only "Godly" things, if you found anything in the OT that's not godly be sure it's not a God's words or actions.

Yes I am saying God when he is speaking to Arab he will use their language, when he speak to Israel's ppl he will use their language, when he talks to Hindu he will speak their language. Naturally when we want to guide or warn someone we will use the language they understand. I am not saying he is Arabian or English or Israeli...etc

God didn't speak to people in Arabic. He spoke in Hebrew and some Arabian merchant in the seventh century decided it would be a good idea to translate the Old Testament into Arabic and unite the Beduin tribes in a strong empire under the excuse they are fullfilling God's will.

Abdul ... the Old Testament is NOT called the Turah.  The correct spelling is Torah, and you are still incorrect, because the Torah is only the 1st 5 books of the OT.  It is a Jewish term along with the "Books of Moses," or some even call it "Chumash."  The Tanuch or Tanakh is the the entire Old Testament for Jews - not the Torah.  You are confused. 

To others ... Also the Tanakh or the entire OT was mostly written in Hebrew, with the latter parts of the OT being written in Aramaic, not Arabic.   The OT to Christians is properly termed the Hebrew Scriptures.  The entire OT, when first translated, (in another language) was in Greek - not to be confused with the Greek Scriptures.  This first translation was called the Septuagint.  Originally, The New Testament however, was mostly written in Greek, but a few books were still written in Hebrew.  The NT is properly termed The Greek Scriptures for Christians.

With that being said, the book of Islam for Muslims have also had several translations - the English one being the Alcoran, but the first translation from Arabic to Persian was called the Koran.  ( I hope I have those spellings correct.)  True purists of the religion use the original called the Qur'an, which is still in the original language - Arabic.       

To Parsec ...  God did NOT speak to people - other than Adam having a direct 2 way conversation with God, and Moses was able to hear God, but others were visited by an angel or in a dream - with NO real communication directly from God.  Even the writers of the OT, and NT were inspired by God to write, but again, God did not speak to them.  (This is for Christianity and Judaism of course)

To Abdul ...  Other than the cases which I described above (those exceptions), Christianity and Judaism does not have God speaking verbally or audibly so one can hear.  Perhaps in your religion you feel that he does.  However Abdul, many Muslims believe in the Bible as well as the Qur'an, but Muslims believe the bible has been changed, whereas their Qur'an has not.  With that being said, since many Muslims do believe in the bible also - you should also know yourself that God does not speak to others. 
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AbdulAziz

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Re: Gods
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2009, 08:32:31 PM »
Quote
did god speak to those who wrote the bible in Arabic? Or I guess I should ask, were the people who wrote the bible Arabian, and therefore would have written down god's word in such a pluralistic fashion?

I am sorry for confusing you because I don't know how to use the English language as I can use the Arabic so the words I am trying to use I can't find it in English, thanks to Babsinva he corrected my mistake God don't speak to humans with few exceptions.

What I meant the language of the "Torah" was the language Moses and his followers, the Language of "Enjeel/Injeel" was the language of Jesus. The Language of Quran is the language of Mohammed and the people he was sent to. Now why the We, Us...etc because this is used in both Arabic and Hebrew when someone great is talking, it's used in different languages and also the closest language to Arabic is the Hebrew that's why they say sister language.

Quote
Abdul ... the Old Testament is NOT called the Turah.  The correct spelling is Torah, and you are still incorrect, because the Torah is only the 1st 5 books of the OT.  It is a Jewish term along with the "Books of Moses," or some even call it "Chumash."  The Tanuch or Tanakh is the the entire Old Testament for Jews - not the Torah.  You are confused.

You are absolutely right and when I used the Torah as example because there are many ppl call the Torah (Old Testament) and of course I never said the Torah was written in Arabic it was originally written in a language where Moses and his ppl can understand that was my point.

Quote
To Abdul ...  Other than the cases which I described above (those exceptions), Christianity and Judaism does not have God speaking verbally or audibly so one can hear.  Perhaps in your religion you feel that he does.  However Abdul, many Muslims believe in the Bible as well as the Qur'an, but Muslims believe the bible has been changed, whereas their Qur'an has not.  With that being said, since many Muslims do believe in the bible also - you should also know yourself that God does not speak to others. 

Well you are right, God don't speak to people and they cannot hear his words and even in my religion he don't except the exceptions you mentioned. As for the believe, believing in the books God revelead in the past to his prophets is a base, if a Muslim don't believe in the Torah, Enjeel, Zaboor...etc he is not a Muslim. We Muslims believe that God revealed Torah to Prophet Moses, Enjeel to Prophet Jesus peace be upon them However we also believe that the current Torah, Enjeel has been corrupted by Jews & Christians that's why not everything in these two books are correct, there are things that are correct, there are things that are not correct and there are things we Muslims don't know if it's correct or not except God. This is our believe regarding the books.

However I am not saying ppl might use translations to change God's words just because our believe that they have been changed but because "Contradiction" in God's word is impossible, so when someone give us a book saying this is the book revealed to us by God then we found countless contradictions and countless ungodly action we logically answer: "This can't be the words of God". For example all humans who believe in the existence of Almighty God, they agree he is All Mighty, All Powerful so if he was weak, he was defeated by human or angel or something like that we say: "This is not the true All Mighty God".

As for contradiction, alot of ppl make fun of ppl who contradicts themselves in their books even though they are humans they are not perfect! Than why we are happy when God contradicts himself!?

Thanks again Babsinva for the correction :)
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

Re: Gods
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2009, 12:36:04 AM »
Abdul, the thing you said about right and wrong; right and wrong, evil and good are completely relative no matter what. Nothing in life can you say is always going to be that way, because of all the contexts. Everything in the universe is somehow relative (including god, if he exists), and everything evolves. (IMO)

Now when you say "any sane person can see that killing for no reason is bad" well first I'll change that to just killing in general, because as you should know not a lot of sane people kill for NO reason, there is usually a reason. So one would say the idea of killing another human being immoral universally. However, I can pullout various societies throughout history who saw glory in killing and being killed (ie sacrifice). For you to call them all insane would simply be ignorant.

Re: Gods
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2009, 07:13:54 PM »
Oh, this is a fun one!  ;D

Nope you can not worship ANYTHING other than God/Jahwe/Allah/theOne/...
However, because of freewill you CAN believe in the easter bunny, Santa Claus, the great spaghetti monster, hey, even a puddle of snot.

The horror begins when you believe AND worship those things.
An example of such things: praying to Jezus, Mohammed, a random saint.  Or swearing on bibles,Thora's, Qurans...  for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience!
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