Any way to tell Longitude by sun/stars?

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passanger

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Any way to tell Longitude by sun/stars?
« on: November 18, 2016, 11:41:11 AM »
It pretty easy to tell approximately what latitude I am at by the declination of the sun at noon, approximate temperature, polar constellations or stars and just all the constellations. Is there any way to tell longitude by the sky, night or day?

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Copper Knickers

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Re: Any way to tell Longitude by sun/stars?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2016, 02:13:10 PM »
It pretty easy to tell approximately what latitude I am at by the declination of the sun at noon, approximate temperature, polar constellations or stars and just all the constellations. Is there any way to tell longitude by the sky, night or day?

Not really, unless you know the time. It's a famous problem and big prizes were offered back in the day.

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rabinoz

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Re: Any way to tell Longitude by sun/stars?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2016, 04:27:02 PM »
It pretty easy to tell approximately what latitude I am at by the declination of the sun at noon, approximate temperature, polar constellations or stars and just all the constellations. Is there any way to tell longitude by the sky, night or day?
It is possible to calculate the longitude from the position of the moon and stars, but very difficult to do with any degree of accuracy, and not (as far as I know) in the day-time.

See
          Longitude by the Method of Lunar Distance for one method
and
          FROM HEAVEN TO EARTH, Using Jupiter's moons to determine where on Earth you are.

But as Copper Knickers says,
Not really, unless you know the time. It's a famous problem and big prizes were offered back in the day.
An easy and accurate determination of longitude was so important that
Quote from: Wikipedia, History of Longitude
the British government established the Board of Longitude in 1714
"The Discovery of the Longitude is of such Consequence to Great Britain for the safety of the Navy and Merchant Ships as well as for the improvement of Trade that for want thereof many Ships have been retarded in their voyages, and many lost..." [and there will be a Longitude Prize] "for such person or persons as shall discover the Longitude."



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Cartog

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Re: Any way to tell Longitude by sun/stars?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2016, 09:35:53 PM »
It might be possible to calculate latitude from a sighting of the sun or stars but it would require an extremely accurate timepiece.

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rabinoz

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Re: Any way to tell Longitude by sun/stars?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2016, 10:38:26 PM »
It might be possible to calculate latitude from a sighting of the sun or stars but it would require an extremely accurate timepiece.
The references I gave were for calculating longitude without an accurate clock. Knowing details of the Moon's position or the positions or Jupiters moons, as in an almanac, the longitude can be calculated, but not with the accuracy required for accurate navigation.

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passanger

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Re: Any way to tell Longitude by sun/stars?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2016, 07:22:10 PM »
Thank you. Lunar distance might work.

I was too brief in OP. I do not want to use something who's validity can not be checked on the spot.  Or maybe made on the spot. Compasses can be.
I will take a flight across the pacific and I want to know how far the new time zone is from the one I left. I will watch sand-glass clocks and repeatedly listen to an audiobook's single chapter to calculate the time difference. Then check if the sun is in the right place. Will this work? Any suggestions for the book?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 07:33:06 PM by passanger »

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rabinoz

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Re: Any way to tell Longitude by sun/stars?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2016, 07:54:04 PM »
Thank you. Lunar distance might work.

I was too brief in OP. I do not want to use something who's validity can not be checked on the spot.  Or maybe made on the spot. Compasses can be.
I will take a flight across the pacific and I want to know how far the new time zone is from the one I left. I will watch sand-glass clocks and repeatedly listen to an audiobook's single chapter to calculate the time difference. Then check if the sun is in the right place.
You did read the requirements, I hope?
"The only tools required are a good quality metal sextant (the plastic ones are not adequate for lunars), the Nautical Almanac, and an inexpensive scientific calculator."

To "calculate the time difference" your watch or phone timer is far more accurate than any "sand-glass clocks".

You really can't achieve anything with what you are planning.
Finding longitude, even with an extremely accurate clock needs very precise measurements.
Here is a comment from someone who knows
Quote from: Nigel Beneteau 473, Manchester, UK
An expert navigator, with a steady hand & accurate sextant and timepiece, can determine their position to within half a mile. These accuracies are usually achieved on shore.

If you're bobbing around on a small boat, an expert would be very happy to get to within a mile or two of the correct position. In fact, most of us would be satisfied with the previously mentioned 4 - 5 nm accuracy.

Since sextant angles are measured in degrees and minutes of arc (1/60th of a degree), measuring this angle to an accuracy of 1 minute of arc (1') will result in a positional accuracy of 1 nautical mile.

Accurate sextants can measure this angle to an accuracy of 0.2'. This suggests that, theoretically, one could determine their position to 1/5 of a mile.

Additionally, a good clock is required to accurately compute the GP of the celestial body. An error of 1 second in the clock will create a positional error of up to 1/4 of a mile.

From Cruiser''s Forum, Acceptable Accuracy in Celestial Navigation[/b]]=http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f121/acceptable-accuracy-in-celestial-navigation-53980.html
Cruiser''s Forum, Acceptable Accuracy in Celestial Navigation


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passanger

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Re: Any way to tell Longitude by sun/stars?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2016, 01:12:29 PM »
I could not check the validity of either on the spot so I can not use them. I would be satisfied if the calculation was within 250 miles. Also I will be on land. Though I guess checking things while in flight would be useful.

I do make a "sextant" similar to this: