What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?

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Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2016, 06:06:13 PM »
all scientists are crooked and they all have been bribed

True. If you do not produce the results your supervisor wants you to produce, you're fired. Period.
"It is not necessary that hypotheses should be true, or even probable; it is sufficient that they lead to results of calculation which agree with calculation".
Copernicus

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Rayzor

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Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2016, 08:33:45 PM »
you're fired. Period.

There you go,  that's how quoting out of context works.  Consider yourself suitably chastised.

Just to set the record straight,  science  loves things that don't add up,  that always lead to new discoveries.   That's how knowledge advances.

Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2016, 12:30:58 AM »
you're fired. Period.

There you go,  that's how quoting out of context works.  Consider yourself suitably chastised.

Just to set the record straight,  science  loves things that don't add up,  that always lead to new discoveries.   That's how knowledge advances.

We learn more from our mistakes than our successes. Rubber and Viagra are two discoveries that 'spring' to mind and were accidental.

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RocksEverywhere

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Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2016, 04:24:40 AM »
In science, bad results are results too. It tells us what not to do.
AMA: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=68045.0

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it's not real.

Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2016, 06:36:55 AM »
In science, bad results are results too. It tells us what not to do.

That what they tell you. The real science has nothing to do with that. Say, you-re a post doc. Say, you're lucky to find a position. The position is usually under some grant, for 1 year, 3 at most. The grant was received by an (assistant tenure track) professor 'cause (s)he is a friend, a relative or a lover of somebody from the grant committee. In the application, the professor (=your supervisor) promised to save the world for a few pennies, and now you ought to do that.

Now, the funniest thing is that if you do that, your job will be given to another friend/relative/lover. 'Cause you are supposed to describe how you do your experiments, and sign all those confidentiality agreements etc. And you will be kicked out, 'cause they don't need you any more. If you could not do that, you gonna be fired, too, 'cause you could not achieve the results you were hired for. That's how the modern science works.

Needless to say, you've a very low salary, no benefits, no pension plans etc. Oh, and you can not be a member of a union, so they can fire you literally any moment - and I've seen quite a few cases.

A win-win lottery.

 ;D
"It is not necessary that hypotheses should be true, or even probable; it is sufficient that they lead to results of calculation which agree with calculation".
Copernicus

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RocksEverywhere

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Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2016, 06:46:23 AM »
I have never ever heard of something like that happening. Yes, there's probably some foul play in the scientific world on occasion (the news has mentioned fraudulent researchers getting their ass kicked) but that only delays things. Doesn't "hide the truth" forever.
AMA: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=68045.0

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it's not real.

Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2016, 09:46:24 AM »
I have never ever heard of something like that happening.

Perhaps, 'cause you're not in the joke, bro'. According to the legends, there used to be a shining temple of knowledge and brotherhood, on the very same spot of the present disgusting whorehouse.

 ::)

It's so delightful that my remark about the world leaders caused no questions.

 8)  ;D  ::)  :P
"It is not necessary that hypotheses should be true, or even probable; it is sufficient that they lead to results of calculation which agree with calculation".
Copernicus

Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2016, 08:27:52 AM »
IF, as you claim, the earth is really flat, then there ought to be a LOT of honest scientists willing to say so.  They might be poor and scattered ..... and very probably not earning a living as geographers or astronomers but maybe as chemists or engineers or something else that isn't dependent on their opinion of the shape of the planet.  But they ought to be out there somewhere.  And yet they're not HERE on this website.

On other websites we can find scientists (of a sort, at least) who are adherents of some minority viewpoint - anti-vaccination, vegan diet, racist, into flying saucers, you name it - but a very definite paucity of scientists of any sort willing to declare themselves Flat Earthers.

Yet, if the Earth were flat and that fact were revealed, there would be a major economy boost to the economy of virtually every country.  There'd be entirely new industries and technologies and sciences commenced to explore The Edge, go beyond The Edge, find new resources and even new life forms beyond The Edge, maybe even colonize the territory beyond The Edge, etc.  It would be even more economically inspiring than the space race!

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Antithecyst

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Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2016, 08:58:39 AM »
If you make a big mistake, and then later on, you realized you made a big mistake, do you fess up, and risk losing all credibility?

That being said, there could be other reasons.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Aristotle

If you're not sinning against the scientific, religious and political status quo, than you're not really thinking.

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Antithecyst

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Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2016, 09:34:55 AM »
IF, as you claim, the earth is really flat, then there ought to be a LOT of honest scientists willing to say so.  They might be poor and scattered ..... and very probably not earning a living as geographers or astronomers but maybe as chemists or engineers or something else that isn't dependent on their opinion of the shape of the planet.  But they ought to be out there somewhere.  And yet they're not HERE on this website.

On other websites we can find scientists (of a sort, at least) who are adherents of some minority viewpoint - anti-vaccination, vegan diet, racist, into flying saucers, you name it - but a very definite paucity of scientists of any sort willing to declare themselves Flat Earthers.

Yet, if the Earth were flat and that fact were revealed, there would be a major economy boost to the economy of virtually every country.  There'd be entirely new industries and technologies and sciences commenced to explore The Edge, go beyond The Edge, find new resources and even new life forms beyond The Edge, maybe even colonize the territory beyond The Edge, etc.  It would be even more economically inspiring than the space race!
You're assuming there ought to be a lot of honest Scientists out there, your paradigm is that people are basically honest, but that's just your opinion, if people are basically just full of shit, then such a scheme would be easier to perpetrate.
People are afraid, they're afraid of standing out, of standing up.
Scientists especially spend all of their formative years being brainwashed, so they're not used to exercising independent thought, except for in very controlled, limited ways.
Most of them are easily herded, every once in a while you get a genius like Jung or Tesla, and often their genius is (initially) mistaken for insanity/folly, or they go unnoticed when in my estimation, and the estimation of some others, they deserved far more attention, like the Antoine Bechamps and Peter Duesbergs of the world, and those who carried on their work.
Most Scientists are afraid, afraid of being humiliated, of losing their credibility, their funds, their jobs, of taking chances, risks, putting it all on the line, most people from all walks of life play it safe, unless they have nothing left to lose, the so called geniuses of the world, it may not be so much a case of superior intelligence as superior courage, charisma and creativity.

Furthermore, there Are some flat earthers out there, not sure if they qualify as scientists, depends on how you define scientists, but there were serious researchers/theoreticians like Rowbotham, and many more before and after him.
There may be a few others both within and outside academia, but get almost 0 publicity.
Just because something is on the very fringes of Science, with almost 0 academic support and only a handful of independent researchers/theorists out there, doesn't guarantee it will never overtake the mainstream, it just makes it unlikely to occur, or anytime soon.

There may be Government Scientists exploring the edge in secret.
Given our track record, how we've made a mess of the known plane, they, including perhaps other sentient life forms out there who may be in control of or in collusion with government, they may be preventing us from making messes elsewhere.

It's not just about honesty, these matters are complicated, it's not obvious the earth is flat or round once you really delve into it, it may only be somewhat more probable that it's flat when you analyze all the data, but still ambiguous and open to debate, and so, it would be easier to convince most Scientists it's more likely it's round than flat if that's the case, only those at the very, very top of the Scientific/political establishment may know for absolute certain, because they have the resources to definitively test such matters.

If Science/State were to admit it's flat now, they would lose all credibility, other institutions on the fringe, people would begin turning away from the mainstream and towards the religious, philosophical and scientific fringes in droves, both Science and government would lose all their power and credibility, new institutions with different ways of organizing themselves and thought would rise up to challenge them, and humanity would enter a new age of chaos and revolution.

And, if there's nothing to explore on the edge of the Antarctic plateau, if it's just a barren, desolate wasteland, or an impenetrable dome, there may be no profits to be made, and so having the idea of outer space, and other planets to explore, gives them more of an excuse to tax the people.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 11:19:05 AM by Antithecyst »
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Aristotle

If you're not sinning against the scientific, religious and political status quo, than you're not really thinking.

Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2016, 01:34:56 PM »
Do you ever consider the possibility that the earth is a globe? It matches every observable phenomena and it doesn't require a billion+ person conspiracy.
I wonder how obnoxious I can make my signature?
Please give me ideas.

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Marciano

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Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2016, 05:07:38 PM »
Just look at the history of it.  There was a battle to seize power from The Catholic Church in Europe.  For example, Henry the 8th in England, basically looted the church of it's property (which was enormous and under the church and had been put to use for the public good, in other words charity) and, his cronies used that wealth to engage in usury (money for nothing, which the church condemned as a mortal sin).  So, theft and usury.  That was repeated all over Europe.  So, the church was basically destroyed (as a power in europe) and replaced with state power, controlled by merchants, with no moral limit on their actions, because not only have they stripped the church of its wealth and political power, but also sought to strip it of its legitimacy. 
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!

It's not eight inches over the first mile;  it's eight inches over the first foot!   ;D

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disputeone

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Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2016, 05:07:55 PM »
Or none of that would happen... since the earth is a globe.
We probably do live on a planet, but that doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't entertain the possibility or improbability that we live on a plane.

He does, I've been enjoying his recent posts.
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For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this.

The reason I am consistently personally attacked here.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=69306.msg1960160#msg1960160

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Marciano

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Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2016, 05:27:09 PM »
Executive Summary: 

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!

It's not eight inches over the first mile;  it's eight inches over the first foot!   ;D

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rabinoz

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Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2016, 08:13:54 PM »
Executive Summary: 

Oh, Mr Marciano. you are decades out of date!

So why did "The Church" change its mind and vindicate Galileo?
Quote
Galileo Vindicated by Catholic Church in 1992 (softer version)
Let me try again. As a defense attorney would say, let me rephrase my argument.

The Catholic Church deemed Galileo's theory of the Earth revolving around the Sun to be Sacrilegious and blasphemous. He was Excommunicated in the mid 1600's and placed under house arrest for the rest of his life.

You would think that the 1969 photo's from the Moon would be evidence enough for the modern day Catholic Church to admit they may be mistaken that the Earth is the center of the universe. But they waited until 1979 to study the matter. Finally, in 1992, they decided that Galileo was right and they were wrong, although they declared that the 17th Century Inquisition acted in "good faith". Such an enlightened group. No wonder we have such swift justice in the pedophilia priest investigations. Church justice certainly is swift and thorough. It only took Galileo 350 years to win his point.

Link: Vatican Science Panel Told By Pope: Galileo Was Right
From: Galileo Vindicated by Catholic Church in 1992 (softer version)

and Copernicus?
Quote from: Austen Ivereigh in The National Catholic Review
Copernicus vindicated
You may not have heard of the Cathedral of Frombork on Poland's Baltic coast. But the remains that were re-buried there yesterday after a ceremony led by Poland's leading churchmen were of one of the best-known scientists in history, long associated with one of the most significant shifts in the way we view the world.

Nicolaus Copernicus, the 16th-century astronomer whose De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium ("On the revolution of the heavenly spheres") dethroned the earth from the centre of the universe and ushered in the modern scientific age, was condemned by the Church as a heretic decades after his death. He had spent years developing his heliocentric notion that the earth revolved around the sun, based on observations of the heavens he made with the naked eye (this was before the telescope).

Yesterday he was buried as a hero at a Mass celebrated by the papal nuncio in the Cathedral where once he once served as a canon and doctor. (His skull and other bones were discovered in an unmarked grave beneath the cathedral floor in 2005.) According to an AP report, "a black granite tombstone now identifies him as the founder of the heliocentric theory, but also a church canon .... The tombstone is decorated with a model of the solar system, a golden sun encircled by six of the planets."

The honors accorded by Copernicus by the Catholic Church come 18 years after Galileo -- the Italian astronomer who developed Copernicus's theory -- was rehabilitated by the Vatican.

Yesterday's Mass was led by the new Polish Primate, Jozef Kowalczyk, Archbishop of Gniezno. Wojciech Ziemba, the archbishop of the region surrounding Frombork, said the Catholic Church is proud that Copernicus left the region a legacy of "his hard work, devotion and above all of his scientific genius." The archbishop of Lublin, Jozef Zycinski, meanwhile criticized the "excesses of the self-proclaimed defenders of the Church" in condemning Copernicus's theories.

Before he died in 1543, Copernicus' ideas were neither well known nor considered dangerous: in fact, they weren't condemned by the Church until 1616, when the Church was battling the ideas of Martin Luther. Copernicus had been suspected at the time of sympathy for Lutheranism. He had also clashed with cathedral authorities over the mistress he kept, whom he was forced to give up. But his Catholic credentials are otherwise pretty impeccable -- down to his doctorate in canon law at Bologna University.

Still, in De Revolutionibus he foresaw the stir his conclusions would cause.

Perhaps there will be babblers who, although completely ignorant of mathematics, nevertheless take it upon themselves to pass judgement on mathematical questions and, badly distorting some passages of Scripture to their purpose, will dare find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I disregard them even to the extent as despising their criticism as unfounded.

Re: What do the world goverments gain by not letting people know the 'truth'?
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2016, 01:03:05 AM »
A significant fact is that the RC Church was never officially tied to a Flat Earth concept.  There is this common notion that "everyone" thought the Earth was flat prior to Columbus, but this is simply false.  Some of the ancient Greeks and Romans had already theorized a round earth and even made surprisingly close estimates of its size.  By the time of the Crusades (around the 12th and 13th centuries) the notion of a Round Earth was fairly well accepted among seafaring men and many educated men, although, frankly, it probably didn't make much of a difference to anyone until well into the 20th century.

The point of this is that there was no terrible lurch when people who had believed in a Flat Earth were told to believe in a Round Earth instead; no panic, no riots, no craziness.  So it would seem to follow, if we accept, for the sake of this thread, that the earth is flat, that we tell people who have believed in a Round Earth that the Earth is really Flat, they will not go crazy at this news.  How many people writing on this website went berzerk when they were told the earth was flat??  So there's no great purpose to be served by the govt keeping the earth's true shape a secret.

As for the suggestion that scientists are all, somehow, sheep and dishonest and so forth, the whole purpose of a scientist is to find out new facts, facts different from what people (even other scientists) had previously been thinking, etc.   There are at least a few scientists - altho it stretches the meaning of the word - who deny evolution, but the FES still cannot point to one who actually believes in a flat earth.

Frankly, if it were true, the announcement that the Earth is flat would probably be a tremendous boost to the entire world's economy.  Enormous new industries and sciences would develop to explore and study The Edge of the planet, to climb over The Edge and find new resources and even new life forms.  Every country, even those not near The Edge, could participate in some way in these new industries and sciences. There would be money to be made, resources to be mined, explorations and discoveries to keep everyone busy for centuries to come.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 07:59:55 PM by Cartog »