The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This

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Thermal Detonator

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2009, 06:18:56 PM »
Bishop, by disagreeing with me I can only conclude that you don't understand any of the following terms:
(a) lens flare
(b) d-max
(c) jpeg compression artefacts

Additionally, I suspect you don't understand the concept of film halation.
Go away and read up on these things. Once you understand them all, the inevitable conclusion will be as I stated - that is why the sun appears like that.
I expect an apology when you have read up on them. There are many fields I talk about on this forum where I have only an interested amateur's knowledge. However, on the subject of photographic imaging, it is my professional field. You'd do well to remember that while cleaning the ketchup nozzle at your branch of McDonald's.

There already is a lens flare on that sun. It is not a lens flare. A lens flare is never as intense as the sun.

It's not a jpeg artifact.

If you're interested in rebutting the video, please provide a valid example.

Oh I see you didn't bother to go and read up on the topics I suggested? A pity. A lens flare on a photograph CAN be as bright as the image of the sun itself - but since you deny this, I take it as definitive proof you don't know what you are talking about. Somebody who claims lens flare is never as intense as the sun clearly doesn't understand how photographic film works, so I suggest you crawl back into your hole until you've done proper research. You're laughable.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

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ERTW

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2009, 06:47:47 PM »
Nah, this is a classic use of Bishop's Razor - his argument has been proved invalid so his response is to pretend that never happened.
Bishop knows nothing about photography and I know quite a bit, and was able to show how the image was indeed what you'd expect to get with the sun in the frame. I work in an imaging field, it's my job to understand these things.

No. The sun is never inconsistently bright like that.

If you're interested in rebutting the video, please provide a valid example.

Never inconsistently bright like that? Sheesh...

By this do you mean that the stars consist of a form of matter that has gravitational properties and the Earth does not?

It is not known what the stars exist as. They may be made of plasma, energy, matter, or a combination thereof.


If it could be anything how do you know how consistent it is? Regardless, I know of a few plasmas that are inconsistently bright.


Quote
This is odd, because when I jump or walk off an elevated platform I get the impression that I am falling towards the earth, not the other way round.

When you fall you're feeling what it's like to be in an inertial frame of reference rather than one where you are pinned to the earth's surface.

Quote
I'm not trying to attack you by the way, I'm just curious as to what your theory is in regards to this.

The nature of the stars are unknown.
In RET we have observed these things called solar flares, which are really bright.
Don't diss physics until you try it!

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2009, 08:39:56 PM »
Alright then. This has grown in my absence (I seem to have been IP banned from my laptop for some reason. Lucky I've got a desktop CPU as well). Since photography isn't my strong point (or indeed, any of my points at all) I'll just stick to summarising what's happened so far and draw myself a conclusion.

Bishop said that the sun in that photo was a stage light. Everyone jumped on that with teeth gnashing and so whether that's right is still up in the air. Even if it is right it only proves that that photo is faked. We have no motive (which we need because otherwise we are just speculating as to whether it was faked because the world is flat) and I don't even know which Apollo mission that is from so it could just be an attempt to frighten the Russians or likewise.
About the sun being a stagelight, it is probably just something to do with the camera/film/storage. Cameras are never great at taking photos of bright things and so I'd like a control image of the sun (from anyone; at least 1 RE and 1 FE) to be tested by them and me to see what results we get. Preferably an original image saved as a .jpg and hopefully (but not likely) from the same camera line. Use photoshop for the test just like Bishop did.

So in summary:
Still want motives for the Chinese, want NASA links depending on motives for the Chinese and we need control images of sun to be tested in photoshop like Bishop did.
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

?

Tristan

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2009, 05:41:36 AM »
If you're interested in rebutting the video, please provide a valid example.

There are lots of things that get discussed on this site that I am not an expert on, and whilst that doesn't invalidate my opinion, I often don't feel qualified to give a response that, in itself, is anything more than conjecture. However, as a professional visual effects artist, with a background in cinematography, this is something about which I can speak with some authority - so challenge accepted. A proper analysis is unfortunately going to take longer than my lunch break, so I'll have to get back to you later on that - but watch this space. (do you like what I did there with the whole "space" thing. I thought so.)


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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2009, 05:58:02 AM »
If you're interested in rebutting the video, please provide a valid example.

1)You have drawn a conclusion based on your biased opinion alone.
2)You have made the statement that the sun is never inconsistently bright like that, which is irrelevant to the sun's appearance on a photograph-a converted digital photograph at that.
3)You have obviously not seen the sun in every instance, nor done the same procedure to every photograph ever taken of the sun, so you have no basis to make that claim.
4)You have no body of evidence showing known pictures of stage lights taken with that make and model of camera with the same settings and then converted to a digital image in the same manner.
5)You have no body of evidence showing known pictures of the sun taken with that make and model of camera with the same settings and then converted to a digital image in the same manner.
6)You have no body of evidence showing known pictures of stage lights taken with a different make and model of camera.
7)You have no body of evidence showing known pictures of the sun taken with a different model of camera.
8)You have no body of evidence showing the results after transition from film to digital of a current model film camera photograph of the sun.
9)You have no body of evidence showing the results after transition from film to digital of a current model film camera photograph of a stage light.
10)You proposed no hypothesis which could be validated or falsified by your series of tests.
11)A sample size of 1 is a poor basis for a conclusion.
See what happens when you just experiment and then try to apply what you see to what you wanted it to say in the first place?
"We know that the sun is 93 million miles away and takes up 5 degrees of the sky.

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Raiku

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2009, 03:24:39 PM »
Lens flare as far as I know does not make things darker.  It can make things brighter, though.  Perhaps the lighter areas are lens flare.

BTW, Bishop I feel like owning your moon crap with this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories

Read the whole thing, and every single one of your evidence of Apollo fraud gets flattened!

Ha...  Ha ha...  Bad joke...
I guess all humans have mental problems since we believe the Earth exists...

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2009, 10:21:11 PM »
Finally found a way around my laptop ban.

Shameless self-bump for continued discussion/admittance of defeat.
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

?

Thermal Detonator

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #67 on: December 27, 2009, 05:21:34 AM »
I think we've crushed Bishop in this one, he's crawled away to hide. No posts from him on this page.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

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Dino

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #68 on: December 27, 2009, 06:30:39 PM »
Alright then. This has grown in my absence (I seem to have been IP banned from my laptop for some reason. Lucky I've got a desktop CPU as well). Since photography isn't my strong point (or indeed, any of my points at all) I'll just stick to summarising what's happened so far and draw myself a conclusion.

Bishop said that the sun in that photo was a stage light. Everyone jumped on that with teeth gnashing and so whether that's right is still up in the air. Even if it is right it only proves that that photo is faked. We have no motive (which we need because otherwise we are just speculating as to whether it was faked because the world is flat) and I don't even know which Apollo mission that is from so it could just be an attempt to frighten the Russians or likewise.
About the sun being a stagelight, it is probably just something to do with the camera/film/storage. Cameras are never great at taking photos of bright things and so I'd like a control image of the sun (from anyone; at least 1 RE and 1 FE) to be tested by them and me to see what results we get. Preferably an original image saved as a .jpg and hopefully (but not likely) from the same camera line. Use photoshop for the test just like Bishop did.

So in summary:
Still want motives for the Chinese, want NASA links depending on motives for the Chinese and we need control images of sun to be tested in photoshop like Bishop did.

Motives for the Chinese: the elite running the world have achieved political unification, as evidenced by lack of major wars for the past 60 years. What is good for the ruling elite in the US or Russia also goes for China. To the extent that there may be any real international tensions (as opposed to those made up by the press) the US has so much leverage over china due to the massive amount of US debt they hold -- which the US could default on if it chose -- so chinese officials, to the extent that they are aware the world is flat, are not motivated to piss off the US on this issue. Anyway, China doesn't exactly like telling the truth about most things as a matter of routine: we are talking about a totalitarian regime here! Their political system could equally be called: Government by Conspiracy.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #69 on: December 27, 2009, 09:39:36 PM »
It's sort of funny how it is readily accepted that China's space program is fake, yet the rest are not, despite the fact that China's fake space program working with the other space programs on billion dollar space projects.

Once we have a fake space program working with other nations in space it sort of implicates the rest now, doesn't it?

http://www.asianewsnet.net/news.php?id=9234&sec=1

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/China-Russia_Mars_mission_set_for_takeoff_999.html
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 12:00:08 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Tristan

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2009, 06:36:56 AM »
It's sort of funny how it is readily accepted that China's space program is fake.

That is kinda funny - given that it is completely untrue.
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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2009, 02:50:26 PM »
It's sort of funny how it is readily accepted that China's space program is fake, yet the rest are not, despite the fact that China's fake space program working with the other space programs on billion dollar space projects.

Once we have a fake space program working with other nations in space it sort of implicates the rest now, doesn't it?

http://www.asianewsnet.net/news.php?id=9234&sec=1

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/China-Russia_Mars_mission_set_for_takeoff_999.html

China's space program has not been proven to be an entire fake. So far the spacewalk was probably fake, but mission still hasn't been proved so and neither has the whole space program.
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2009, 02:52:10 PM »
Alright then. This has grown in my absence (I seem to have been IP banned from my laptop for some reason. Lucky I've got a desktop CPU as well). Since photography isn't my strong point (or indeed, any of my points at all) I'll just stick to summarising what's happened so far and draw myself a conclusion.

Bishop said that the sun in that photo was a stage light. Everyone jumped on that with teeth gnashing and so whether that's right is still up in the air. Even if it is right it only proves that that photo is faked. We have no motive (which we need because otherwise we are just speculating as to whether it was faked because the world is flat) and I don't even know which Apollo mission that is from so it could just be an attempt to frighten the Russians or likewise.
About the sun being a stagelight, it is probably just something to do with the camera/film/storage. Cameras are never great at taking photos of bright things and so I'd like a control image of the sun (from anyone; at least 1 RE and 1 FE) to be tested by them and me to see what results we get. Preferably an original image saved as a .jpg and hopefully (but not likely) from the same camera line. Use photoshop for the test just like Bishop did.

So in summary:
Still want motives for the Chinese, want NASA links depending on motives for the Chinese and we need control images of sun to be tested in photoshop like Bishop did.

Motives for the Chinese: the elite running the world have achieved political unification, as evidenced by lack of major wars for the past 60 years. What is good for the ruling elite in the US or Russia also goes for China. To the extent that there may be any real international tensions (as opposed to those made up by the press) the US has so much leverage over china due to the massive amount of US debt they hold -- which the US could default on if it chose -- so chinese officials, to the extent that they are aware the world is flat, are not motivated to piss off the US on this issue. Anyway, China doesn't exactly like telling the truth about most things as a matter of routine: we are talking about a totalitarian regime here! Their political system could equally be called: Government by Conspiracy.
Sounds plausible to me but just because it could exists doesn't mean it does. Need some evidence.
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #73 on: December 28, 2009, 03:20:45 PM »
It's sort of funny how it is readily accepted that China's space program is fake, yet the rest are not, despite the fact that China's fake space program working with the other space programs on billion dollar space projects.

Once we have a fake space program working with other nations in space it sort of implicates the rest now, doesn't it?

http://www.asianewsnet.net/news.php?id=9234&sec=1

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/China-Russia_Mars_mission_set_for_takeoff_999.html
You mean the space walk that is disproved with footage from real space walks? Oh no, that means there has to be a real one!

As has already been said, the spacewalk itself is incriminating. It doesn't mean the whole program has been a complete sham. By your logic, any part of FE theory that has been disproven defeats the entire theory.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2009, 03:27:58 PM »
It's sort of funny how it is readily accepted that China's space program is fake, yet the rest are not, despite the fact that China's fake space program working with the other space programs on billion dollar space projects.

Once we have a fake space program working with other nations in space it sort of implicates the rest now, doesn't it?

http://www.asianewsnet.net/news.php?id=9234&sec=1

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/China-Russia_Mars_mission_set_for_takeoff_999.html

China's space program has not been proven to be an entire fake. So far the spacewalk was probably fake, but mission still hasn't been proved so and neither has the whole space program.

So if China really has men in space, why did they go through the trouble of creating fake space walks?  ???
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 04:07:53 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #75 on: December 28, 2009, 04:07:28 PM »
It's sort of funny how it is readily accepted that China's space program is fake, yet the rest are not, despite the fact that China's fake space program working with the other space programs on billion dollar space projects.

Once we have a fake space program working with other nations in space it sort of implicates the rest now, doesn't it?

http://www.asianewsnet.net/news.php?id=9234&sec=1

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/China-Russia_Mars_mission_set_for_takeoff_999.html

China's space program has not been proven to be an entire fake. So far the spacewalk was probably fake, but mission still hasn't been proved so and neither has the whole space program.

So if China really has men in space, why did they go through the trouble to show us fake space walks?  ???

Not everyone agrees that the Chinese space walk was faked.
http://www.astroengine.com/?p=1531
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/10/08/did-the-chinese-fake-their-space-walk/
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #76 on: December 28, 2009, 04:15:29 PM »
Not everyone agrees that the Chinese space walk was faked.
http://www.astroengine.com/?p=1531
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/10/08/did-the-chinese-fake-their-space-walk/

It has already been admitted and agreed on in this thread that the Chinese spacewalk is likely fake.

Discover's/Bad Astronomy's rebuttals consist solely of "That's really silly" and "Yeeeeeah."
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 04:20:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #77 on: December 28, 2009, 04:23:46 PM »
Not everyone agrees that the Chinese space walk was faked.
http://www.astroengine.com/?p=1531
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/10/08/did-the-chinese-fake-their-space-walk/

It has already been admitted and agreed on in this thread that the Chinese spacewalk is likely fake.

Discover's/Bad Astronomy's rebuttals consist solely of "That's really silly" and "Yeeeeeah."

Likely != certainly.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Thermal Detonator

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2009, 04:45:52 PM »
I don't think the spacewalk video is fake at all.
Firstly, if there were visible bubbles in a water tank, the first thing the Chinese VFX artists would do is rub them out. They certainly wouldn't leave them in as a clue.
Secondly, said particles are not behaving like bubbles. They are moving in different directions and faster and more smoothly than bubbles.
Thirdly, there is no indication of any water resistance on the suit or its accessories. The taikonaut moves back and forth in such a way that some of the straps and cords on his suit would sway with water resistance. This does not happen. When he waves to the camera, moving his arm at reasonable speed, there is no sign of swishing resistance on the soft material of his suit such as one sees underwater. The sleeve does not indent at all.
Fourthly, the movement of the straps and cords around the suit and the other accessories indicate that the effect could not have been accomplished simply by hanging the taikonaut on wires in a gravitational environment.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #79 on: January 02, 2010, 09:16:01 AM »
It's sort of funny how it is readily accepted that China's space program is fake, yet the rest are not, despite the fact that China's fake space program working with the other space programs on billion dollar space projects.

Once we have a fake space program working with other nations in space it sort of implicates the rest now, doesn't it?

http://www.asianewsnet.net/news.php?id=9234&sec=1

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/China-Russia_Mars_mission_set_for_takeoff_999.html

But you've only addressed one video.
There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2010, 05:06:38 PM »
It's sort of funny how it is readily accepted that China's space program is fake, yet the rest are not, despite the fact that China's fake space program working with the other space programs on billion dollar space projects.

Once we have a fake space program working with other nations in space it sort of implicates the rest now, doesn't it?

http://www.asianewsnet.net/news.php?id=9234&sec=1

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/China-Russia_Mars_mission_set_for_takeoff_999.html

But you've only addressed one video.

They've only had one manned space walk.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 05:14:34 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2010, 03:58:49 PM »
It's sort of funny how it is readily accepted that China's space program is fake, yet the rest are not, despite the fact that China's fake space program working with the other space programs on billion dollar space projects.

Once we have a fake space program working with other nations in space it sort of implicates the rest now, doesn't it?

http://www.asianewsnet.net/news.php?id=9234&sec=1

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/China-Russia_Mars_mission_set_for_takeoff_999.html

But you've only addressed one video.

They've only had one manned space walk.

I assume by "they" you mean the Chinese given that there are videos of astronauts and cosmonauts doing spacewalks as well, not to mention that this was not China's first mission in outer space.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spacewalkers

You've got a lot of work to do.
There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.

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Tom Bishop

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markjo

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2010, 04:59:44 PM »
You've got a lot of work to do.

Actually, you do.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Burden+of+Proof

Tom, why do you keep dragging up a burden of proof wiki entry that you wrote as if it's supposed to be authoritative?  Why don't you try this wiki entry instead?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2010, 06:56:19 PM »
Tom, why do you keep dragging up a burden of proof wiki entry that you wrote as if it's supposed to be authoritative?  Why don't you try this wiki entry instead?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

The article agrees with me. The burden of proof is always on the claimant and never on the skeptic.

During a court case the burden of proof isn't on the defendant to prove that he didn't commit the crime. It's on the prosecutor to prove their claim that he did.

When two people have a debate on the existence of ghosts the burden of proof isn't on the person to prove that ghosts don't exist. The burden of proof is on the person who claims that they do.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 06:59:37 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2010, 07:03:53 PM »
Tom, why do you keep dragging up a burden of proof wiki entry that you wrote as if it's supposed to be authoritative?  Why don't you try this wiki entry instead?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

The article agrees with me. The burden of proof is always on the claimant and never on the skeptic.

During a court case the burden of proof isn't on the defendant to prove that he didn't commit the crime. It's on the prosecutor to prove their claim that he did.

When two people have a debate on the existence of ghosts the burden of proof isn't on the person to prove that ghosts don't exist. It's on the person who claims that they do.

You're absolutely right.

This discussion is on the conspiracy theory which you claims exists. You are accusing space organizations from around the world of being part of this, now you must provide proof.

Provide us with indisputable evidence that every space mission has been part of an elaborate conspiracy to convince the world that the Earth is round, and we will agree that you are correct.

You addressed one space walk that the taikonauts did, but you have a lot more to do.  ;)
There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.

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Mookie89

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2010, 07:10:45 PM »
Tom, why do you keep dragging up a burden of proof wiki entry that you wrote as if it's supposed to be authoritative?  Why don't you try this wiki entry instead?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

The article agrees with me. The burden of proof is always on the claimant and never on the skeptic.

During a court case the burden of proof isn't on the defendant to prove that he didn't commit the crime. It's on the prosecutor to prove their claim that he did.

When two people have a debate on the existence of ghosts the burden of proof isn't on the person to prove that ghosts don't exist. The burden of proof is on the person who claims that they do.

You skepticize if NASA actually has satellites in orbit, with which we provide video evidence to prove this, then you claim that the videos are faked. In this case, you are the claimant, so the burden of proof is on you.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2010, 07:13:41 PM »
Quote
You're absolutely right.

This discussion is on the conspiracy theory which you claims exists. You are accusing space organizations from around the world of being part of this, now you must provide proof.

Provide us with indisputable evidence that every space mission has been part of an elaborate conspiracy to convince the world that the Earth is round, and we will agree that you are correct.

You addressed one space walk that the taikonauts did, but you have a lot more to do.  ;)

Nope. See the ghosts example. One person claims that ghosts exist. Another person claims that they do not. The burden of proof is on the person who claims that they exist.

Ergo, the burden of proof is on you to prove that manned space travel is possible.

The burden of proof isn't on me to prove that space travel hasn't happened. I'm the skeptic here. You're the claimant. The burden of proof is always on the claimant and never on the skeptic. The burden of proof is squarely on your shoulders.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 07:19:34 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Mookie89

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Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2010, 07:15:14 PM »

Nope. Se the ghosts example. One person claims that ghosts exist. Another person claims that they do not. The burden of proof is on the person who claims that they exist.

Ergo, the burden of proof is on you to prove that manned space travel is possible.


You skepticize if NASA actually has satellites in orbit, with which we provide video evidence to prove this, then you claim that the videos are faked. In this case, you are the claimant, so the burden of proof is on you.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Ugh ugh! Ugh nug nug ugh!

It's fourteen French social dances past the hour.