The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This

  • 164 Replies
  • 22639 Views
The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« on: December 03, 2009, 11:48:32 PM »
Okay, here we go. First time poster; long time lurker.
So far all I have seen in FE arguments about, well anything is "CONSPIRACEH!!" (A summary, obviously).
You don't really have a lot of proof the conspiracy exists. So here I go, to try and figure out weather the conspiracy actually exists.

1. The rules:

In the Australian legal system the burden of proof is with the prosecuter. The prosecuter must prove the defendant murdered the victim. It is not the defendant's jobto prove he didn't.
By extension, the flat earth therory supporters are the prosecuters because you are accusing NASA (mainly) of a conspiracy. Therefore, you have the burden of proof. You must prove that the conspiracy is real. If you do not prove it and simply say 'well, it could exist', you have failed the burden of proof, just as saying 'well, he could have stabbed her' is not sufficent to jail a man for life.

2. The evidence:
The only evidence I will accept is actual evidence. Like I said before, 'well, it could exist' is not evidence of its existence, therfore, not evidence so do not waste my time and yours trying to prove it could exist. I want actual proof it does. Saying 'NASA silences the proof, therefore we have no evidence' is not an argument either. If you have no evidence, guess what, YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE! Therefore, you fail the burden of proof.

3. The arguments:
?You spelt this wrong, therefore I am right.? = Fail.
?You are an idiot, therefore I am right.? = Fail.
?You are homosexual, therefore I am right.? = Fail.
Etc.
?<Inset copious evidence here>, therefore I am right.? = Win.

4. The shape of the Earth:
I am sorry, but I cannot allow the shape of the Earth to be an argument. If we assume the world is flat, conspiracy = real. If we assume it round, conspiracy = fake. Since if we allow this the thread will become FET vs. RET like all the others we will assume neither. The shape of the Earth is NOT an argument for ANYONE! THIS IS FUCKING IMPORTANT SO READ IT AGAIN AND MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND IT! Use only things such as eyewitness accounts and items proved to be fake as evidence. For an item to be successfully proved as fake it must actually be accepted as fake by EVERYONE.

5. Finally:
I am probably asking a bit much but please, everyone, be impartial and fair. Do not be insulting or rude because if you are everyone stops being impartial, it turns into a shit-flinging competition and nothing gets done.

So, in summary:
1.   Do not use the shape of the earth as an argument
2.   Do not be insulting
3.   FE members must prove the conspiracy does exist, not just that it could.
4.   RE members must disprove the evidence.
5.   When one side is completely trashed and fails to continue to debate, the other side is the winner.

3, 2, 1, GO!
P.S. I require sources with evidence.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 10:23:06 PM by toothyp1cks »
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

Re: Beyond All Reasonable Doubt
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 01:36:14 AM »
In advance, I suggest no FE'r try to use the first moon landing as evidence.  You will be decimated, especially if you do not use reliable sources.

Re: Beyond All Reasonable Doubt
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 02:14:32 AM »
In advance, I suggest no FE'r try to use the first moon landing as evidence.  You will be decimated, especially if you do not use reliable sources.

I thought about that but I decided to let them have it. After all, it could be fake. But like I said, if you want to use it as evidence, everyone has to agree it was fake. On the topic of the moon landing tha fact the flag is moving proves nothing, because the force of the flagpole going into the ground also set the flag into motion and with nothing to stop it from moving, it started to move.

But I doubt anyone will post anyway. I set pretty stringent restrictions to ensure only top quality stuff gets through, so I doubt any FET evidence will actually pass muster.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 02:22:22 AM by toothyp1cks »
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

?

Tristan

  • 180
  • Bendy Earth Proponent
Re: Beyond All Reasonable Doubt
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2009, 04:50:19 AM »
On the topic of the moon landing tha fact the flag is moving proves nothing, because the force of the flagpole going into the ground also set the flag into motion and with nothing to stop it from moving, it started to move.

Actually, I read a funny interview with a NASA engineer who said that they spent several days designing and choreographing the whole thing because they thought it would be more "patriotic" if the flag appeared to wave. If they knew that conspiracy theorist would use it as "evidence" that they faked the landings, they wouldn't have bothered.
Image used in Avatar:
"Duck Dodgers™ in the 24&1/2th Century"
© Warner Brothers Animation
All Rights Reserved

Re: Beyond All Reasonable Doubt
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2009, 05:13:14 AM »
But I doubt anyone will post anyway. I set pretty stringent restrictions to ensure only top quality stuff gets through, so I doubt any FET evidence will actually pass muster.

You should add lame semantic nitpicking = fail to section 3 also.
"We know that the sun is 93 million miles away and takes up 5 degrees of the sky.

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2009, 08:25:18 PM »
Hmmm. No posts from any FE'ers with any evidence at all...
What does this prove, I wonder?
I'll give it another day or so before I call it.
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 38253
Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2009, 09:52:28 PM »
FE'ers will probably say something like "if we had evidence of a conspiracy, then it wouldn't be a very good conspiracy, would it?"
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2009, 10:21:52 PM »
FE'ers will probably say something like "if we had evidence of a conspiracy, then it wouldn't be a very good conspiracy, would it?"

Hence number 2.

2. The evidence:
The only evidence I will accept is actual evidence. Like I said before, 'well, it could exist' is not evidence of its existence, therfore, not evidence so do not waste my time and yours trying to prove it could exist. I want actual proof it does. Saying 'NASA silences the proof, therefore we have no evidence' is not an argument either. If you have no evidence, guess what, YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE! Therefore, you fail the burden of proof.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 10:24:39 PM by toothyp1cks »
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2009, 02:41:33 PM »
That's it, I call victory.
The conspiracy does not exist because it has not been proved to exist therefore NASA is telling the truth and the Earth is a sphere. The FET is wrong, the RET is right, we can close down these forums and all go to sleep knowing that we were right all along.

Don't thank me, its just my job.
 ;)
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

?

Robert64

  • 121
  • Lives on a Round Earth
Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2009, 02:48:19 PM »
That's it, I call victory.
The conspiracy does not exist because it has not been proved to exist therefore NASA is telling the truth and the Earth is a sphere. The FET is wrong, the RET is right, we can close down these forums and all go to sleep knowing that we were right all along.

Don't thank me, its just my job.
 ;)

We have conclusively disproven FEt numerous times, but they just ignore the offending thread or change the subject to one they can argue in.

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2009, 02:54:05 PM »
That's it, I call victory.
The conspiracy does not exist because it has not been proved to exist therefore NASA is telling the truth and the Earth is a sphere. The FET is wrong, the RET is right, we can close down these forums and all go to sleep knowing that we were right all along.

Don't thank me, its just my job.
 ;)

We have conclusively disproven FEt numerous times, but they just ignore the offending thread or change the subject to one they can argue in.

I know, nearly every thread results in the FE'ers running and hiding under the rock of "BLAH BLAH BLAH CAN'T HEAR U" but I figured that I'd give disproving it once and for all, unquestionably, a go.
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

?

Robert64

  • 121
  • Lives on a Round Earth
Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2009, 03:03:11 PM »
That's it, I call victory.
The conspiracy does not exist because it has not been proved to exist therefore NASA is telling the truth and the Earth is a sphere. The FET is wrong, the RET is right, we can close down these forums and all go to sleep knowing that we were right all along.

Don't thank me, its just my job.
 ;)

We have conclusively disproven FEt numerous times, but they just ignore the offending thread or change the subject to one they can argue in.

I know, nearly every thread results in the FE'ers running and hiding under the rock of "BLAH BLAH BLAH CAN'T HEAR U" but I figured that I'd give disproving it once and for all, unquestionably, a go.

I commend your effort, but from experience I doubt the FE'ers stubbornness will allow it to get anywhere.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17255
Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2009, 03:09:47 PM »
I've already proven that a space conspiracy exists.

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2009, 03:11:34 PM »
I've already proven that a space conspiracy exists.
Well then, oh beneficent one, mind sharing. And don't link to another thread, I want the evidence here. Copy and paste if you have to.
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

?

Robert64

  • 121
  • Lives on a Round Earth
Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2009, 03:13:41 PM »
I've already proven that a space conspiracy exists.
Way to provide evidence. Try again.

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2009, 03:37:48 PM »
Still waiting for that evidence Tom. Or has it been lost in the mail somewhere and you haven't made backups (i.e. doesn't exist).
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17255
Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2009, 04:00:13 PM »
I've already proven that a space conspiracy exists.
Well then, oh beneficent one, mind sharing. And don't link to another thread, I want the evidence here. Copy and paste if you have to.

The CSA (Chinese Space Agency) is running a fake space program.





http://en.epochtimes.com/n2/china/shenzhou-vii-fake-spacewalk-5809.html

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2009, 04:13:29 PM »
I've already proven that a space conspiracy exists.
Well then, oh beneficent one, mind sharing. And don't link to another thread, I want the evidence here. Copy and paste if you have to.

The CSA (Chinese Space Agency) is running a fake space program.





http://en.epochtimes.com/n2/china/shenzhou-vii-fake-spacewalk-5809.html

Yep. That all seems reasonable enough. So China has faked a mission out of their space program and probably more, but this does not prove that there is a conspiracy out there, it just proves that China...
Well, it has its problems. China 'could be' motivated by many other reasons. Even if I did believe that China faked it because the Earth was flat and not because they're tyrants (for want of a better word, no offence) you still have
NASA
The CSA (Canadian)
The ESA
The ISA
JAXA
The Turkish Space Agency (It's name has symbols that don't show up on this forum in it)
KCST
ARCASPACE
MNSA
and whichever one is the Russian space agency
to go. I know this seems like I'm asking a bit much but maybe you could recruit some others to help?
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17255
Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2009, 04:26:37 PM »
There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.

ESA and others are all working with NASA on the ISS. NASA actually helped to build those organizations in the 80's.

?

Don B

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2009, 04:34:14 PM »
I've already proven that a space conspiracy exists.
Well then, oh beneficent one, mind sharing. And don't link to another thread, I want the evidence here. Copy and paste if you have to.

The CSA (Chinese Space Agency) is running a fake space program.





http://en.epochtimes.com/n2/china/shenzhou-vii-fake-spacewalk-5809.html

As you have stated in the past, videos can be faked and modified. YouTube is hardly a credible source of information by your own rules. As for "The Epoch Times", you're citing a publication highly critical of the Chinese government. They'll gladly shoot down any accomplishment of those in power.

Try to cite something credible.



*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17255
Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2009, 04:35:45 PM »
The videos aren't faked.

If you're concerned about fakery, look at the original footage.

?

Don B

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2009, 05:30:45 PM »
The videos aren't faked.

If you're concerned about fakery, look at the original footage.

I did and saw nothing damning. Do you understand how things work in microgravity? Do you really think that if there were a conspiracy in play, with all the multi-million dollar special effects out there, that "they" would neglect to edit out the studio lights or a simple bubble? Do you think that they'd ignore all the fanboys on IMDB that point out every little FX glitch?

And again, the "Conspiracy", according to FE, dates back much further than NASA or any other nations space program.

It's funny to me that according to you, the videos are real when convenient and bogus when it suits you.

And I'm going to ask you (Tom Bishop) every single day until you give me (us) an answer to tell us the names of the two colleges (or debate colleges, your modified term after being questioned on your unsubstantiated claim) you chair? You likely won't, because in your own words, you're not "keen on being stalked". So again, can you at least detail the curriculum of both these [debate] colleges?

Until then Mr. Bishop, you are (and will remain) a fool.



« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 05:41:48 PM by Don B »

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17255
Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2009, 05:43:36 PM »
Quote
I did and saw nothing damning. Do you understand how things work in microgravity?

Last I checked there weren't any bubbles in microgravity.

Quote
So again, can you at least detail the curriculum of both these [debate] colleges?

I've described the curriculum towards the middle of this thread:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=34267.0

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2009, 05:50:16 PM »
The videos aren't faked.

If you're concerned about fakery, look at the original footage.

I did and saw nothing damning. Do you understand how things work in microgravity? Do you really think that if there were a conspiracy in play, with all the multi-million dollar special effects out there, that "they" would neglect to edit out the studio lights or a simple bubble? Do you think that they'd ignore all the fanboys on IMDB that point out every little SF glitch?

And again, the "Conspiracy", according to FE, dates back much further than NASA or any other nations space program.

It's funny to me that according to you, the videos are real when convenient and bogus when it suits you.

You, Mr. Bishop, are a fool.

Well then. For the record, we'll accept that this spacewalk (the Chinese one) has been faked because, quite obviously, it has. The videos look fine to me and the points brought up in them make perfect sense and are logical. The news blog is critical of the Chinese government but the glitches (bubbles and some others) clearly don't occur in space, so it can only be faked. It seems unbiased. Whether this fakery was because China is part of the epic conspiracy remains to be proven.
No personal attacks please because if everyone starts throwing them around it only de-rails the thread and I don't want that. Even if Tom contradicts himself in other threads I only want those brought up if it happens in this thread, i.e. only if he contradicts himself in this thread.

There is evidence for a NASA conspiracy. Please search.

ESA and others are all working with NASA on the ISS. NASA actually helped to build those organizations in the 80's.
Me searching is not the point of this thread either (though I am fully willing to look at other threads if you link them, or tell me to search for a particular title). The point is for you to present you're evidence and me to refute it (if I can). By all means reference other threads (or even copy & paste) but you need to explain it as well.
And also, is there any evidence that NASA and the others are conpiratorily linked?

So currently: You need to prove NASA is in on it and the others are NASA's children, or that everyone is in on it (and for that you need to prove the motivation behind China's fakery is the conspiracy and not something else because China's motives are questionable and there are other explanations).
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 02:58:02 PM by toothyp1cks »
When I was 5 years old my mum always told me that happiness was the key to life.
When I went to school they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I wrote down "happy."
They told me I didn't understand the assignment.

?

Don B

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2009, 06:02:05 PM »
Quote
I did and saw nothing damning. Do you understand how things work in microgravity?

Last I checked there weren't any bubbles in microgravity.

Quote
So again, can you at least detail the curriculum of both these [debate] colleges?

I've described the curriculum towards the middle of this thread:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=34267.0

Oh, you clever cut-n-paste bandit you! Address the points I raised in their full context.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17255
Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2009, 02:20:11 AM »
Quote
So currently: You need to prove NASA is in on it and the others are NASA's children, or that everyone is in on it (and for that you need to prove the motivation behind China's fakery is the conspiracy and not something else because China's motives are questionable and there are other explanations).

Here's evidence of some NASA fakery:

http://www.screencast.com/users/tbishop/folders/Jing/media/d5784ce2-2348-40a0-8f9b-0ddf37763b6e

?

Robert64

  • 121
  • Lives on a Round Earth
Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2009, 02:58:06 AM »
Quote
So currently: You need to prove NASA is in on it and the others are NASA's children, or that everyone is in on it (and for that you need to prove the motivation behind China's fakery is the conspiracy and not something else because China's motives are questionable and there are other explanations).

Here's evidence of some NASA fakery:

http://www.screencast.com/users/tbishop/folders/Jing/media/d5784ce2-2348-40a0-8f9b-0ddf37763b6e
Congrats tom, you have accurately shown that the sun is a sphere, as it is still a circle when seen from the moon!

Um, what where you trying to say again?

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17255
Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2009, 03:47:32 AM »
The Apollo sun is a stage light.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 03:54:04 AM by Tom Bishop »

?

Don B

Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2009, 04:21:35 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop
I've described the curriculum towards the middle of this thread:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=34267.0

I read through all six pages. You did not describe the curriculum.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17255
Re: The Conspiracy; Let's Settle This
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2009, 04:39:22 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop
I've described the curriculum towards the middle of this thread:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=34267.0

I read through all six pages. You did not describe the curriculum.

Gave you the wrong thread. It's described here: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=34149.msg841562#msg841562