Random philosophical and religious discussions

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Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2009, 10:48:45 PM »
Oh no sorry the implicative thing was about evolution, as in, because creationists think that evolution is false they must also think that its due to conspiracy that the scientific community believes in evolution. They straight up think that global warming is a conspiracy though. But ya its not really that great of a connection anyways.
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

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Raist

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Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2009, 12:39:16 PM »
Oh no sorry the implicative thing was about evolution, as in, because creationists think that evolution is false they must also think that its due to conspiracy that the scientific community believes in evolution. They straight up think that global warming is a conspiracy though. But ya its not really that great of a connection anyways.

Disagreeing with the scientific community does not mean you believe in a conspiracy, it simply means you believe the scientists are wrong. I know many creationists and I don't know any that believe scientists are intentionally lying to people.

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2009, 05:26:52 PM »
Perhaps you haven't met one that thinks that evolution is a conspiracy, but surely you must have met one that claims global warming is? I mean, do any of them listen to Rush Limbaugh?

FErs still must believe highly organized conspiracies exist if so many people have had the wool pulled over their eyes. Every governmental space agency in the world? "...all the phone companies and television companies and various other companies that use "satellites"..." Every person who ever did a surveying test to see physically measure the imaginary curvature of the earth.
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

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Raist

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Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2009, 05:51:57 PM »
Perhaps you haven't met one that thinks that evolution is a conspiracy, but surely you must have met one that claims global warming is? I mean, do any of them listen to Rush Limbaugh?

FErs still must believe highly organized conspiracies exist if so many people have had the wool pulled over their eyes. Every governmental space agency in the world? "...all the phone companies and television companies and various other companies that use "satellites"..." Every person who ever did a surveying test to see physically measure the imaginary curvature of the earth.

Ok, so now we are back to "Fe'ers believe in a conspiracy, rush limbaugh believes global warming is a conspiracy, you assume that most creationists are like rush limbaugh (at least that's the only connection I see in there), fe theory is like creationism"

Your logic is still retarded.

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2009, 08:13:40 PM »
Perhaps you haven't met one that thinks that evolution is a conspiracy, but surely you must have met one that claims global warming is? I mean, do any of them listen to Rush Limbaugh?

FErs still must believe highly organized conspiracies exist if so many people have had the wool pulled over their eyes. Every governmental space agency in the world? "...all the phone companies and television companies and various other companies that use "satellites"..." Every person who ever did a surveying test to see physically measure the imaginary curvature of the earth.

Ok, so now we are back to "Fe'ers believe in a conspiracy, rush limbaugh believes global warming is a conspiracy, you assume that most creationists are like rush limbaugh (at least that's the only connection I see in there), fe theory is like creationism"

Your logic is still retarded.

But I'm willing to bet that my assumption that the majority of creationists who view global warming as a conspiracy is true.

In conclusion to creationists being like FE'ers:

Creationists think that the scientific community is not lying about evolution, but simply wrong about evolution.
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FE'ers think that the scientific community is not lying about the earth being round, but simply wrong about the earth being round.

Creationists think that the section of the scientific community that is promoting global warming as true, are not only wrong about it, but for the most part conspiring to suppress the truth that it isn't warming.
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FE'ers think that the section of the scientific community (or perhaps only the ones that claim to have the technology for space flight and a few people who draw physical results of the curvature of the earth) that is promoting the earth being as round being true, are not only wrong about it, but for the most part conspiring to suppress the truth that the earth is flat.

admittedly the connection made for the second example is a much looser connection, but the first one shows a general distrust of the scientific communities accuracy.
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

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Raist

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Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2009, 08:40:59 PM »
So all you are saying is that fe'ers disagree with the scientific community at large as does every other group not in the scientific community at large but you only want to mention creationists because of the stigma you have for them in your mind and assume that others have the same stigma?

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2009, 09:52:01 PM »
So all you are saying is that fe'ers disagree with the scientific community at large as does every other group not in the scientific community at large but you only want to mention creationists because of the stigma you have for them in your mind and assume that others have the same stigma?

Would you please explain "every other group not in the scientific community at large"? There is certainly very little I would expect most groups, atheists for example, to disagree with the scientific community upon as significant as evolution, global warming and the shape of the earth. Its not really a stigma (if by stigma, your referring to the term used to describe an ill founded and ignorance based prejudice) if I can actually show a relation between being a creationist/FE'er and having a distrust/disregard-of-legitimacy of the scientific community that is not prevalent in most other organizations.
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

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Raist

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Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2009, 10:03:08 PM »
So all you are saying is that fe'ers disagree with the scientific community at large as does every other group not in the scientific community at large but you only want to mention creationists because of the stigma you have for them in your mind and assume that others have the same stigma?

Would you please explain "every other group not in the scientific community at large"? There is certainly very little I would expect most groups, atheists for example, to disagree with the scientific community upon as significant as evolution, global warming and the shape of the earth. Its not really a stigma (if by stigma, your referring to the term used to describe an ill founded and ignorance based prejudice) if I can actually show a relation between being a creationist/FE'er and having a distrust/disregard-of-legitimacy of the scientific community that is not prevalent in most other organizations.

Your need to group people is sad. Since science is constantly changing its beliefs in any cutting edge field the correct people usually hold an opinion that differs from the scientific community at large. If agreeing with the majority was a qualification for not being like creationists then I would definitely prefer to be like the creationists in that manner. Though I really don't see why you make that connection.

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2009, 10:15:37 PM »
So all you are saying is that fe'ers disagree with the scientific community at large as does every other group not in the scientific community at large but you only want to mention creationists because of the stigma you have for them in your mind and assume that others have the same stigma?

Would you please explain "every other group not in the scientific community at large"? There is certainly very little I would expect most groups, atheists for example, to disagree with the scientific community upon as significant as evolution, global warming and the shape of the earth. Its not really a stigma (if by stigma, your referring to the term used to describe an ill founded and ignorance based prejudice) if I can actually show a relation between being a creationist/FE'er and having a distrust/disregard-of-legitimacy of the scientific community that is not prevalent in most other organizations.

Your need to group people is sad. Since science is constantly changing its beliefs in any cutting edge field the correct people usually hold an opinion that differs from the scientific community at large. If agreeing with the majority was a qualification for not being like creationists then I would definitely prefer to be like the creationists in that manner. Though I really don't see why you make that connection.

My need to group people is sad? People form groups on their own accord, not by my preference. In saying that the "correct people" hold an opinion that differs from the scientific community, a group of people best known for following the evidence, not the ill founded fundamental views, your making quite a broad statement. Its not disagreeing with the majority that I'm making a connection with, but the disagreement of creationists as well as FE'ers have on this particular consensus of the majority: to agree with the broadest fundamental structures that scientists use (Round Earth, Evolution).
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

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Raist

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Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2009, 10:17:40 PM »
You originally claimed that a belief in a conspiracy united fe'ers and creationists. When shown that this statement was incorrect you've watered this connection down to "they share beliefs different from your own." That's the reason why I argued with you, you have a need to group everyone different from you into the same group.

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2009, 10:20:21 PM »
Wait.

Common descent and a round Earth are cutting edge scientific progress?

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2009, 10:47:11 PM »
You originally claimed that a belief in a conspiracy united fe'ers and creationists. When shown that this statement was incorrect you've watered this connection down to "they share beliefs different from your own." That's the reason why I argued with you, you have a need to group everyone different from you into the same group.

It isn't incorrect, creationists and FE'ers do share the characteristic in believing in illogically founded mass conspiracies (for example, the reasons FE'ers place upon NASA for covering up their discovery that it isn't possible to reach outer space is so lacking that it rivals that of the majority opinion of creationists that global warming is a cover-up of the correct scientific data for reasons I couldn't fathom). Its not the difference of opinion between you, them and myself, its the difference between you, them and the majority (not the majority on everything, but on the specific point I pointed out earlier regarding the scientific community). Nobody cannot help but point out the differences between organizations and themselves. I'm certainly not asserting that FE'ers and Creationists are one of the same, because they certainly are not, (and btw, there are certain aspects of FE'er ideology I have learned to agree with, for one their persistence in maintaining skepticism over fundamentalism), but simply that they both show a higher level of distrust/disregard-of-legitimacy of the scientific community than the majority.

I do not claim gnosticism over every organization I disagree with as you seem to presume, but I'll admit I project a bias over many of them.

Wait.

Common descent and a round Earth are cutting edge scientific progress?

I said "the broadest fundamental structures that scientists use (Round Earth, Evolution)." How exactly does that infer cutting edge?
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

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Raist

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Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2009, 11:02:16 PM »
You originally claimed that a belief in a conspiracy united fe'ers and creationists. When shown that this statement was incorrect you've watered this connection down to "they share beliefs different from your own." That's the reason why I argued with you, you have a need to group everyone different from you into the same group.

It isn't incorrect, creationists and FE'ers do share the characteristic in believing in illogically founded mass conspiracies (for example, the reasons FE'ers place upon NASA for covering up their discovery that it isn't possible to reach outer space is so lacking that it rivals that of the majority opinion of creationists that global warming is a cover-up of the correct scientific data for reasons I couldn't fathom). Its not the difference of opinion between you, them and myself, its the difference between you, them and the majority (not the majority on everything, but on the specific point I pointed out earlier regarding the scientific community). Nobody cannot help but point out the differences between organizations and themselves. I'm certainly not asserting that FE'ers and Creationists are one of the same, because they certainly are not, (and btw, there are certain aspects of FE'er ideology I have learned to agree with, for one their persistence in maintaining skepticism over fundamentalism), but simply that they both show a higher level of distrust/disregard-of-legitimacy of the scientific community than the majority.

I do not claim gnosticism over every organization I disagree with as you seem to presume, but I'll admit I project a bias over many of them.

Wait.

Common descent and a round Earth are cutting edge scientific progress?

I said "the broadest fundamental structures that scientists use (Round Earth, Evolution)." How exactly does that infer cutting edge?

Creationists don't believe in global warming?

The group entitled creationists believe that life was created by god. They have no formal stance on global warming as it is unrelated to the category.

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2009, 11:18:41 PM »
A group can have a position via majority even if their organization has no formal stance upon it. It could be said that atheists agree with the theory of evolution and regardless of them having no set doctrines what-so-ever, this is a fairly reasonable generalization because of the general consensus on this within atheism.

Part of the reasoning behind creationists stance upon this, which I heard directly from the mouth of a creationist youth group leader/pastor not two weeks ago, is that "global warming can't be true, god said that there wouldn't be a second flood." (I'm not making this shit up lol) So I would say yes, it is related to the category of creationists because they strictly agree that the biblical tale of the flood was literal.
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2009, 11:20:45 PM »
A lot of data for global warming invokes the geological and evolutionary age of the Earth, which conflicts with YEC.

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Raist

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Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2009, 11:22:17 PM »
A lot of data for global warming invokes the geological and evolutionary age of the Earth, which conflicts with YEC.

He never specified young earth creationists.

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2009, 11:26:47 PM »
A lot of data for global warming invokes the geological and evolutionary age of the Earth, which conflicts with YEC.

He never specified young earth creationists.

Wow your right, I probably should have pointed that out... But I suppose because they are the ones always opposing evolution and global warming it was implied, sorry about that though.


FYI, I'm not even the first one to make this connections. Did you see the article someone posted where some guy related birthers, YECs and FE'ers together on similar grounds? And did you not see the video I posted where a muslim man used the qur'an (ya i kno, not a YEC but you get the connection) to not only justify a godly creation, but also that the earth is flat?
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

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Raist

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Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2009, 11:38:20 PM »
So? Things being vaguely related doesn't mean you should compare them and try to pull it off as a debate. Hitler believed in a Round Earth, do I compare all RE'ers to Nazis? No. Why? The connection is meaningless.

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2009, 11:56:55 PM »
But Hitler's belief in RE is not related to his connection with Nazism.... Clearly there isn't much use in making connections like "Hitler had a mustache, therefore people with mustaches are similar to Hitler in the aspect of facial hair decisions." because Hitler's mustache choice was hardly a reflection of what he did or his nazism, but making the connection of "The terrorists who attacked the twin towers did it specifically because of their adherence to their islamic religon, therefor the guy who bombed an abortion clinic because of his adherence to christianity (At least I thought the guy that did that was Christian?) is similar to terrorist muslim extremists in this fashion." is a direct connection of islamic extremism to christian extremism, that is very relevant to their adherence to their particular faith.

What part of my connection was vague? Both creationists as well as FE'ers are more likely to believe certain things upheld by the scientific community are specifically because of conspiracies.

I do enjoy how you switched straight away from trying to dislodge my assertion that the majority of creationists believe global warming is a hoax because of their doctrines, right back to your position that my overall position is pointless because of the lack of connection it has of conspiracy-to-doctrine, clever.
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #79 on: December 10, 2009, 02:48:53 PM »
OK, quick question for all you who don't believe in evolution.  Have you even read "The Orgin of Species, By Means of Natural Selection"?

If not, it is unlikely you even have a complete grasp of what natural selection is, and no doubt tilting and windmills, because YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT IS YOU ARE CLAIMING NOT TO BELIEVE.

On the Orgin of Species is a scientific text, but it is VERY approachable for the layman. 

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2009, 03:56:23 PM »
OK, quick question for all you who don't believe in evolution.  Have you even read "The Orgin of Species, By Means of Natural Selection"?

If not, it is unlikely you even have a complete grasp of what natural selection is, and no doubt tilting and windmills, because YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT IS YOU ARE CLAIMING NOT TO BELIEVE.

On the Orgin of Species is a scientific text, but it is VERY approachable for the layman. 

Aside from the fact that this conversation sorta drifted off from that, I totally agree, the majority of people that don't believe in evolution have no idea what evolution even is. Ray Comfort, one of the biggest proponents of the fight against evolution, doesn't even know what speciation is.
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

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Masterchef

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Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2009, 04:04:07 PM »
Ray Comfort, one of the biggest proponents of the fight against evolution, doesn't even know what speciation is.
He doesn't know what it is, but he knows that it doesn't happen.

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2009, 04:17:06 PM »
It was either bring the thread back on topic, or make a joke about Godwin's law.  I chose the former. ;D

EDIT mistype

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #83 on: December 10, 2009, 05:39:15 PM »
Ray Comfort, one of the biggest proponents of the fight against evolution, doesn't even know what speciation is.
He doesn't know what it is, but he knows that it doesn't happen.
I don't know you well enough to know if that was sarcasm, but Comfort believes that bananas were made by god specifically for us.  I guess he's never seen a wild banana.

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #84 on: December 10, 2009, 09:33:33 PM »
Ray Comfort, one of the biggest proponents of the fight against evolution, doesn't even know what speciation is.
He doesn't know what it is, but he knows that it doesn't happen.
I don't know you well enough to know if that was sarcasm, but Comfort believes that bananas were made by god specifically for us.  I guess he's never seen a wild banana.

I still can't believe there are people who actually think the whole Earth was made just for them.

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2009, 01:19:11 PM »
So what you are actually saying is "fe'ers believe in a conspiracy, people who deny global warming imply a conspiracy, many creationists deny global warming, therefore fe'ers are like creationists."

That is a huge leap in logic.
So? Things being vaguely related doesn't mean you should compare them and try to pull it off as a debate. Hitler believed in a Round Earth, do I compare all RE'ers to Nazis? No. Why? The connection is meaningless.
Here, how about this:
You seem to have the huge leap in logic in a conspiracy, just like your interpretations of Sadistic's arguments.
Better?
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Raist

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Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2009, 06:26:28 PM »
So what you are actually saying is "fe'ers believe in a conspiracy, people who deny global warming imply a conspiracy, many creationists deny global warming, therefore fe'ers are like creationists."

That is a huge leap in logic.
So? Things being vaguely related doesn't mean you should compare them and try to pull it off as a debate. Hitler believed in a Round Earth, do I compare all RE'ers to Nazis? No. Why? The connection is meaningless.
Here, how about this:
You seem to have the huge leap in logic in a conspiracy, just like your interpretations of Sadistic's arguments.
Better?


Could you please point out the conspiracies I believe in and the logic I used to arrive at them?

You do know that conspiracies have existed and that you just associate the term conspiracy with people that are insane. I blame this on the history channel giving nutcases segments on their various "conspiracies"

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2009, 07:17:27 PM »
9/11 was a conspiracy!

Perpetrated by Islamic extremists.  It's the half-baked conspiracies that do even deserve attention.

Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2009, 07:54:49 PM »
Could you please point out the conspiracies I believe in and the logic I used to arrive at them?

You do know that conspiracies have existed and that you just associate the term conspiracy with people that are insane. I blame this on the history channel giving nutcases segments on their various "conspiracies"

It is outside of my knowledge what you personally believe Raist, hell you never actually said you personally believe in FET, but unless you have just been trolling me for the sake of it (lol, you would never do that would you?), your a FE'er. Considering access to space travel contradicts FET, most FE'ers deny the legitimacy (and to an extent the truthfulness) of every organization that claims access to space travel or physical/visual methods of measuring the curvature of the earth. There are multiple methods of logic FE'ers have come to this conclusion, so I wouldn't be able to describe yours.

There have been plenty of actual conspiracies I'll admit. Although, not everyone with conspiracies is widely considered insane, and they aren't just on the history channel (can anyone say "Glenn Beck" lolwut).
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Random philosophical and religious discussions
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2009, 07:58:16 PM »
There have been plenty of actual conspiracies I'll admit. Although, not everyone with conspiracies is widely considered insane, and they aren't just on the history channel (can anyone say "Glenn Beck" lolwut).

I certainly consider Glenn Beck to be insane, and the fact that he's given airtime on a news channel just reveals the sad nature of our news business nowadays.