James's theory on dinosaurs

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #270 on: November 29, 2009, 11:35:04 AM »
Specimens of plesiosaur skeletons have been found on the North American continent quite far from the ocean, no doubt brought in by Deinonychus (and later Dromaeosaurus) whalers from the West Coast and traded for blubber, bone and perhaps as zoological attractions.

sorry if this has already been asked, but do you have a source for this claim (that the plesiosaur skeletons have been found far from the ocean)?

or more accurately, what type of rock were the fossils found in?


as for the rest of this... I honestly cant find words to describe it.

should I put on my experimental archaeologoy hat, and write a long essay outlining exactly what is required in terms of infrastructure to build a ship the size of the Mayflower?

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #271 on: November 29, 2009, 11:46:18 AM »
James, I looked up Trinacromerum, the small plesiosaur you say would have been a pet or a source of blubber. On the surface, you would appear to be right, as it lived in Kansas and that is where its fossils were found.

However, during the Cretaceous period, there was a "Western Interior Sea" going through the whole Midwest area of North America.



The Western Interior Sea, sometimes called the Inland Sea, was probably less than 600 feet deep in most areas, and had a relatively flat and soft, mud bottom. It is considered to be an 'epi-continental sea'; that is, one which lies on top of a continental landmass, and not between continents.   Near the middle of the sea where Kansas is now located, sediments were deposited at a rate which would ultimately produce about one inch of compacted chalk for every 700 years. The chalk also has more than a hundred thin layers of bentonite clay, most of which are rusty red in color, that are the result of the fall of ash from repeated eruptions of volcanoes to the west of Kansas in what is now Nevada and Utah. These ash deposits can be traced for miles across the chalk beds and have been used as marker units in describing the stratigraphy of the formation (See Hattin, 1982). In addition, several species of vertebrate and invertebrate marine life that lived and/or became extinct at certain times during the deposition of the chalk are useful in determining the age and biostratigraphy of widely separated exposures (See Stewart, 1990). Near the end of the Cretaceous, the Western Interior Sea began to close, becoming shallower and narrower as the Rocky Mountains were pushed up from the west, uplifting the sea bottom as they rose.  Eventually, the center of North America rose above sea level and the sediments (limestones, sandstones, shales and chalk) deposited on the basement rocks of Kansas for nearly half a billion years began to erode away.

(from the "Oceans of Kansas" website)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 11:51:22 AM by Globularist »

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Skeleton

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #272 on: November 29, 2009, 05:35:04 PM »

Above: A specimen of Trinacromerum, a smaller plesiosaur, has been found in the inland United States, probably kept as a pet or traded for blubber.

I feel bad for this thing. It has a kindly face but it may have been stupid and not understood. Poor creature.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #273 on: November 29, 2009, 05:49:07 PM »
Instead of looking FORWARD, perhaps you ought to be looking BACK ". . . to the wonderous explanation in . . ." LITERALLY MY LATEST POST, the one immediately preceding yours:

Your bolded wonder had failed to address the sea shells, but thank you for pointing to your pretty pictures.

Your fantasy is based on no evidence and only serves to provide an explanation for a distribution of fossils.  The same distribution could just as easily be explained by a race of plane flying dinosaurs, as they had clear evidence flight was possible, and could also be explained by teleportations from devices they built or by technology delivered by aliens.  Each would have just as much supporting evidence.  It's a wonderful philosophical arguement for a maybe-what-if story, but that is just about it.
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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #274 on: November 30, 2009, 07:24:08 AM »
Instead of looking FORWARD, perhaps you ought to be looking BACK ". . . to the wonderous explanation in . . ." LITERALLY MY LATEST POST, the one immediately preceding yours:

Your bolded wonder had failed to address the sea shells, but thank you for pointing to your pretty pictures.

Your fantasy is based on no evidence and only serves to provide an explanation for a distribution of fossils.  The same distribution could just as easily be explained by a race of plane flying dinosaurs, as they had clear evidence flight was possible, and could also be explained by teleportations from devices they built or by technology delivered by aliens.  Each would have just as much supporting evidence.  It's a wonderful philosophical arguement for a maybe-what-if story, but that is just about it.
You are being too kind with James when you say this speculation provides an explanation for a distribution of fossils.

This speculation requires a lot of things that would appear on the fossil record, but do not:
  • A civilization capable of making such sophisticated ships would have thousands of other technological achievements, and some of them should appear in the fossil record.
  • The seafaring species could have taken a few different animals (if we accept the proposal for a second), but the fossil record is filled with species of every kind you can imagine, and some you can't. The fossil record is far too complex to admit this possibility.
  • Not only land animals would have to have been moved, also an enormous amount of sea animals appear hundreds of kilometers inland, from small shells to huge Ictiosaurus, just to mention a few. The fossil record does not support the distribution of fossils this "theory" would produce.
  • The fossil record and the geological strata support the creation and destruction of mountains in too many ways to show here, but this speculation implies no big movements of the land.
  • The human brain is a very expensive tool in terms of the amount of energy it uses, and the possibility of gradually making bigger and bigger machines until a seafaring ship can be constructed means a large population of individuals had to be maintained while they worked on their inventions. This means a whole structure of production and distribution of goods had to be in place, so lots of telltale signs of this should appear, like the ruins of cities and infrastructure, for example.
On the other hand, continental drift is happening right now, it has been measured and an enormously rich geological record has been documented. Just multiplying the speed of the continental drift by the known age of Earth gives you overwhelming evidence that the continents were completely different during the early stages of the planet. No invisible cities, no sudden urges to build ships, no improbable geniuses are needed to explain the fossil and geological record.

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #275 on: November 30, 2009, 02:03:56 PM »
  • A civilization capable of making such sophisticated ships would have thousands of other technological achievements, and some of them should appear in the fossil record.

The ancestors of Australian aborigines used boats to travel to Australia, yet not a single fossil boat is found from the migrant civilization which made this journey, just 40000 years ago. To expect fossil boats from 65000000 years ago and beyond is to display apparent ignorance over the content of archaeology.

  • The seafaring species could have taken a few different animals (if we accept the proposal for a second), but the fossil record is filled with species of every kind you can imagine, and some you can't. The fossil record is far too complex to admit this possibility.

Which ones can't you imagine? The two types of life form I can conceive of being transported are animals and plants, both of which form integral parts of the infrastructure of agrarian societies.

  • Not only land animals would have to have been moved, also an enormous amount of sea animals appear hundreds of kilometers inland, from small shells to huge Ictiosaurus, just to mention a few. The fossil record does not support the distribution of fossils this "theory" would produce.
You seem to have missed the part where I suggested that cretaceous dromaeosaurs were capable whalers and fisher-saurs(?). The fossil record suggests a mercantile society with seafaring capabilities.

  • The fossil record and the geological strata support the creation and destruction of mountains in too many ways to show here, but this speculation implies no big movements of the land.

I dispute neither the creation nor destruction of mountains, nor have I ever done so.

  • The human brain is a very expensive tool in terms of the amount of energy it uses, and the possibility of gradually making bigger and bigger machines until a seafaring ship can be constructed means a large population of individuals had to be maintained while they worked on their inventions. This means a whole structure of production and distribution of goods had to be in place, so lots of telltale signs of this should appear, like the ruins of cities and infrastructure, for example.

Societies as young as a few thousands years leave at best scant, at worst no evidence of their existence. What exactly should remain of wooden or stone structures from several million years ago?

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« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 03:19:03 PM by James »
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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #276 on: November 30, 2009, 02:19:09 PM »
  • A civilization capable of making such sophisticated ships would have thousands of other technological achievements, and some of them should appear in the fossil record.

The ancestors of Australian aborigines used boats to travel to Australia, yet not a single fossil boat is found from the migrant civilization which made this journey, just 40000 years ago. To expect fossil boats from 65000000 years ago and beyond is to display apparent ignorance over the content of archaeology.

  • The seafaring species could have taken a few different animals (if we accept the proposal for a second), but the fossil record is filled with species of every kind you can imagine, and some you can't. The fossil record is far too complex to admit this possibility.

Which ones can't you imagine? The two types of life form I can conceive of being transported are animals and plants, both of which form integral parts of the infrastructure of agrarian societies.

  • Not only land animals would have to have been moved, also an enormous amount of sea animals appear hundreds of kilometers inland, from small shells to huge Ictiosaurus, just to mention a few. The fossil record does not support the distribution of fossils this "theory" would produce.

You seem to have missed the part where I suggested that cretaceous dromaeosaurs were capable whalers and fisher-saurs(?). The fossil record suggests a mercantile society with seafaring capabilities.

  • The fossil record and the geological strata support the creation and destruction of mountains in too many ways to show here, but this speculation implies no big movements of the land.

I dispute neither the creation nor destruction of mountains, nor have I ever done so.

  • The human brain is a very expensive tool in terms of the amount of energy it uses, and the possibility of gradually making bigger and bigger machines until a seafaring ship can be constructed means a large population of individuals had to be maintained while they worked on their inventions. This means a whole structure of production and distribution of goods had to be in place, so lots of telltale signs of this should appear, like the ruins of cities and infrastructure, for example.

Societies as young as a few thousands years leave at best scant, at worst no evidence of their existence. What exactly should remain of wooden or stone structures from several million years ago?
All very good points.  Look at isolated finds we have like the Antikythera mechanism.  It has no real explanation, is the only device of its kind, and we found it barely out of luck.  There are several other finds like this in our own culture.  Add a few million years to the mix and...
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #277 on: November 30, 2009, 02:56:25 PM »

All very good points.  Look at isolated finds we have like the Antikythera mechanism.  It has no real explanation, is the only device of its kind, and we found it barely out of luck.  There are several other finds like this in our own culture.  Add a few million years to the mix and...
....we can speculate on what could be proven by the evidence that doesn't exist.

We still have:
distribution of fossils = seafaring dino traders that know how to construct sailing ships, preserve meat, calculate loading limits of ships and are able to transport livestock and plants.
"We know that the sun is 93 million miles away and takes up 5 degrees of the sky.

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #278 on: December 01, 2009, 04:54:43 AM »
this thread makes me lol

The ancestors of Australian aborigines used boats to travel to Australia, yet not a single fossil boat is found from the migrant civilization which made this journey, just 40000 years ago. To expect fossil boats from 65000000 years ago and beyond is to display apparent ignorance over the content of archaeology.

that doesn't mean you can pretend that such boats existed.

Societies as young as a few thousands years leave at best scant, at worst no evidence of their existence. What exactly should remain of wooden or stone structures from several million years ago?

wood or stone structures.

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SupahLovah

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #279 on: December 01, 2009, 10:26:53 AM »
The ancestors of Australian aborigines used boats to travel to Australia, yet not a single fossil boat is found from the migrant civilization which made this journey, just 40000 years ago. To expect fossil boats from 65000000 years ago and beyond is to display apparent ignorance over the content of archaeology.
Were the boats from 65000000 wooden? Because if you've been reading links, you'd know that's when A LOT of wood is thought to have been petrified. So I'd imagine we'd find quite a bit.
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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #280 on: December 01, 2009, 11:21:19 AM »
The wood Crustinator was referring to did not come from the period in question. Moreover, the petrified wood we have now almost all comes in big geographic lumps where an entire forest was petrified.
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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #281 on: December 01, 2009, 11:31:47 AM »
The ancestors of Australian aborigines used boats to travel to Australia, yet not a single fossil boat is found from the migrant civilization which made this journey, just 40000 years ago. To expect fossil boats from 65000000 years ago and beyond is to display apparent ignorance over the content of archaeology.
Australian aborigines did not create transoceanic boats capable of transporting hundreds or thousands of huge dinosaurs like the Diplodocus, for example. Your debating strategy is as simple as it is thinly veiled: all or nothing; if a small piece of our civilization does not leave marks in the fossil and geological record, then it is possible that a whole civilization existed and left no sign of it existence at all.

Humanity created cities of more than a million people before being able to construct transoceanic boats. Where are the cities of your intelligent dinosaurs?
Which ones can't you imagine? The two types of life form I can conceive of being transported are animals and plants, both of which form integral parts of the infrastructure of agrarian societies.
Even the Spanish explorers, when they carried some farm animals and crop seeds, chose to take a few well selected individuals because they did not have space to carry thousands of species. If your dinosaurs carried livestock (and we are being very credulous here) they certainly did not carry thousands of couples of each kind of animal, as if they were old Noah emulators.
You seem to have missed the part where I suggested that cretaceous dromaeosaurs were capable whalers and fisher-saurs(?). The fossil record suggests a mercantile society with seafaring capabilities.
How can I forget that hilarious remark? Was it for real?

So you are even considering the possibility that your intelligent dinosaurs carried all those sea animals to places that are now far inland and deposited them on the floor without eating them, just so we can find them many millions of years afterwards? Exactly how does the fossil record suggest intelligent dinosaurs that make museums of sea life on land just so we can study them now?
I dispute neither the creation nor destruction of mountains, nor have I ever done so.
Then you do not dispute the fact that geological strata give us information on how those mountains were created and destructed. You want to fish for a few pieces of geological investigation that serve your speculation and throw the rest.
Societies as young as a few thousands years leave at best scant, at worst no evidence of their existence. What exactly should remain of wooden or stone structures from several million years ago?
And how many of those young societies have created seafaring boats? Humanity has had a history of at least three million years, leaving telltale signs of its existence, until finally a few of its individuals ventured into the Atlantic Ocean. When someone looks for traces of our existence in another 80 million years or so they will most certainly not find Erik the Red's boat or Columbus' boats, but they will certainly find ruins of some of the cities we have constructed.

It is one thing to say that most of the marks left by the dinosaurs have been destroyed forever. It is a very different thing to say every single trace of every kind of tool, housing, infrastructure, in short, everything that every single intelligent dinosaur created ever has been destroyed. After all, you only leave some 20 kilograms of bone when you die, but leave behind at least ten tons of rock, asphalt, tools, pieces of your house (both wooden and stone and metal), and much more.

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #282 on: December 01, 2009, 01:32:39 PM »
Societies as young as a few thousands years leave at best scant, at worst no evidence of their existence. What exactly should remain of wooden or stone structures from several million years ago?

if they left no evidence how do we know they existed?

(also: fisher-saur I choose you!)

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #283 on: December 01, 2009, 03:09:34 PM »
Societies as young as a few thousands years leave at best scant, at worst no evidence of their existence. What exactly should remain of wooden or stone structures from several million years ago?

if they left no evidence how do we know they existed?

(also: fisher-saur I choose you!)
The quote you show is not mine, it is from James, the apparent creator of this speculation.

When you know at least a bit about archeology and geology you can see that you do not have to find every single bit of information to get an idea of how things were in some point of the past. Paleontology is not only about finding bones, it is about finding the story told by ancient remains. A society like the one proposed by James would have left some traces, even if they worked mostly with wood, including tools much harder than wood (maybe stone, maybe brass) and signs of huge settlements, which include the massive alteration of large spaces to construct their cities. There is no such thing as a society of millions of individuals that leave absolutely no evidence of their existence and there is no reason whatsoever to think that a society would do such a great effort to cross an ocean with an incredibly complicated cargo in their ships and do no other technological feat of any kind.

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #284 on: December 01, 2009, 03:46:19 PM »
The ancestors of Australian aborigines used boats to travel to Australia, yet not a single fossil boat is found from the migrant civilization which made this journey, just 40000 years ago. To expect fossil boats from 65000000 years ago and beyond is to display apparent ignorance over the content of archaeology.
Australian aborigines did not create transoceanic boats capable of transporting hundreds or thousands of huge dinosaurs like the Diplodocus, for example. Your debating strategy is as simple as it is thinly veiled: all or nothing; if a small piece of our civilization does not leave marks in the fossil and geological record, then it is possible that a whole civilization existed and left no sign of it existence at all.

Our test case was the Cretaceous North American Deinonychus, a 70kg dromaeosaur; and its most ubiquitous livestock, the Saurolophus, which we suggested would have been transported as yearlings to conserve space (the weight problem not being an issue with a well-engineered ship the size of the Mayflower, as we have discussed). Diplodocus was extinct by the end of the Late Jurassic, so I am not suggesting that any would have been transported by dromaeosaurs as food. In fact, I do not think I have suggested anywhere that a Diplodocus might have ever set foot on a boat. You seem to be putting words in my mouth. I am not aware of any Diplodocus remains outside of the continental United States, suggesting they lived there, although Diplodocus was large enough that it would not surprise me if isolated samples had swum to outlying islands around the USA, such as the Aleutians or the Bahamas (I'm just covering my back here, I don't know of Diplodocus fossils ever having been found there).

Humanity created cities of more than a million people before being able to construct transoceanic boats. Where are the cities of your intelligent dinosaurs?

Straightforwardly false I'm afraid. Not even disputed by mainstream globularist science.

Which ones can't you imagine? The two types of life form I can conceive of being transported are animals and plants, both of which form integral parts of the infrastructure of agrarian societies.
Even the Spanish explorers, when they carried some farm animals and crop seeds, chose to take a few well selected individuals because they did not have space to carry thousands of species. If your dinosaurs carried livestock (and we are being very credulous here) they certainly did not carry thousands of couples of each kind of animal, as if they were old Noah emulators.

If you could direct me to the place where I claimed anything of the sort, I will glady and immediately recant (hint: I have never suggested anything remotely along those lines).

You seem to have missed the part where I suggested that cretaceous dromaeosaurs were capable whalers and fisher-saurs(?). The fossil record suggests a mercantile society with seafaring capabilities.
How can I forget that hilarious remark? Was it for real?

So you are even considering the possibility that your intelligent dinosaurs carried all those sea animals to places that are now far inland and deposited them on the floor without eating them, just so we can find them many millions of years afterwards? Exactly how does the fossil record suggest intelligent dinosaurs that make museums of sea life on land just so we can study them now?

I don't wish to patronise you here, but what we've found inland are the bones and shells of the aforementioned sea creatures. Which part of this discovery suggests that their flesh wasn't eaten, exactly?

I dispute neither the creation nor destruction of mountains, nor have I ever done so.
Then you do not dispute the fact that geological strata give us information on how those mountains were created and destructed. You want to fish for a few pieces of geological investigation that serve your speculation and throw the rest.

Let me be quite clear on exactly what it is that I do or do not dispute, so that there may be no doubt as to the propositional content of my claims. I specifically dispute that the continents were once a single giant landmass, or that they have to any large degree changed their position relative to one another in the course of natural history (sea-level changes notwithstanding). I do not dispute the creation or destruction of mountains. I do not dispute that geological investigation enlightens us as to the past creation or destruction of these mountains, in fact, it is my sole basis for believing that they were created or destroyed.

Societies as young as a few thousands years leave at best scant, at worst no evidence of their existence. What exactly should remain of wooden or stone structures from several million years ago?
And how many of those young societies have created seafaring boats? Humanity has had a history of at least three million years, leaving telltale signs of its existence, until finally a few of its individuals ventured into the Atlantic Ocean. When someone looks for traces of our existence in another 80 million years or so they will most certainly not find Erik the Red's boat or Columbus' boats, but they will certainly find ruins of some of the cities we have constructed.

Again, I'm afraid this is false. The most accessible counterexample is Australian pre-Aboriginal society, which necessarily constructed seaworthy boats and had the infrastructures necessary to build those boats. This deductive fact, which is (rightly) upheld by the mainstream anthropological community, is presented as the conclusion of an argument which is structurally similar to my own, with regard to cretaceous dromaeosaurs, and certain other prehistoric species.

It is one thing to say that most of the marks left by the dinosaurs have been destroyed forever. It is a very different thing to say every single trace of every kind of tool, housing, infrastructure, in short, everything that every single intelligent dinosaur created ever has been destroyed. After all, you only leave some 20 kilograms of bone when you die, but leave behind at least ten tons of rock, asphalt, tools, pieces of your house (both wooden and stone and metal), and much more.

I have not expounded the view that any dinosaur ever smelted metal, in fact, I believe I have argued the opposite on a number of occasions. The fact that the ancestors of Australian aborigines possessed a society of sufficient complexity to build intercontinental watercraft, yet left no trace of their civilization (a pair of plain facts which I would be surprised if you were to dispute) discredits the charge you have made here.
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James

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #285 on: December 01, 2009, 03:57:45 PM »
When you know at least a bit about archeology and geology you can see that you do not have to find every single bit of information to get an idea of how things were in some point of the past. Paleontology is not only about finding bones, it is about finding the story told by ancient remains.

I am glad you understand what it is to conduct paleontological investigation, but I am dismayed at your disapproval when I or my colleagues are the persons conducting it.

A society like the one proposed by James would have left some traces, even if they worked mostly with wood, including tools much harder than wood (maybe stone, maybe brass)

I believe, by the way, that the likelyhood of discovering and correctly identifying the stone tools of dromaeosaurs is roughly commensurate with the likelyhood of discovering those of the proto-Aboriginal societies which first colonised Australia, once we have adjusted for an additional 64960000 years of decay. For reference, the current number of proto-Aboriginal artifacts we have discovered and positively identified as such is 0.

and signs of huge settlements, which include the massive alteration of large spaces to construct their cities. There is no such thing as a society of millions of individuals that leave absolutely no evidence of their existence and there is no reason whatsoever to think that a society would do such a great effort to cross an ocean with an incredibly complicated cargo in their ships and do no other technological feat of any kind.

Nor is there any reason to suspect that dromaeosaurs ever lived in cities millions strong. That is why I have not suggested it.
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trig

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #286 on: December 01, 2009, 10:29:54 PM »
Our test case was the Cretaceous North American Deinonychus, a 70kg dromaeosaur; and its most ubiquitous livestock, the Saurolophus, which we suggested would have been transported as yearlings to conserve space (the weight problem not being an issue with a well-engineered ship the size of the Mayflower, as we have discussed). Diplodocus was extinct by the end of the Late Jurassic, so I am not suggesting that any would have been transported by dromaeosaurs as food. In fact, I do not think I have suggested anywhere that a Diplodocus might have ever set foot on a boat. You seem to be putting words in my mouth. I am not aware of any Diplodocus remains outside of the continental United States, suggesting they lived there, although Diplodocus was large enough that it would not surprise me if isolated samples had swum to outlying islands around the USA, such as the Aleutians or the Bahamas (I'm just covering my back here, I don't know of Diplodocus fossils ever having been found there).
The fossil record shows dinosaurs on every continent, including Diplodocus and many other enormous species. You can "explain" a minuscule part of the fossil record but if you do not have a way to explain most of the record you are just playing with words. By the way, if you want to propose your intelligent dinosaurs as an alternative to Continental Drift you are in the wrong geological era. Your "theory" cannot explain why there is a continuous presence of dinosaurs on all continents starting in the Triassic, continuing into the Jurassic and finally in the Cretaceous. Did your intelligent dinosaurs populate the whole world with dinosaurs, or did they just carry an insignificant population of herd animals to the other continents?

Straightforwardly false I'm afraid. Not even disputed by mainstream globularist science.
Please remind me, when did the Romans grow the first great city to a million inhabitants? Was it by chance around the first century CE? And how many cities of more than 100,000 inhabitants were there before Columbus' voyages?
Again, I'm afraid this is false. The most accessible counterexample is Australian pre-Aboriginal society, which necessarily constructed seaworthy boats and had the infrastructures necessary to build those boats. This deductive fact, which is (rightly) upheld by the mainstream anthropological community, is presented as the conclusion of an argument which is structurally similar to my own, with regard to cretaceous dromaeosaurs, and certain other prehistoric species.
This is such a carefully written remark that you can just miss the shift in objectives. "Seaworthy" is not the same as "transatlantic". And "seaworthy" does not mean their navigators were able to direct them through thousands of miles with no island in between, or with enough capacity to take livestock with them. You are trying to inflate the accomplishments of your Australian aboriginals with every new sentence, but the fact remains, they were hardly as technologically advanced as the Europeans when they finally were able and interested in transatlantic voyages.
I have not expounded the view that any dinosaur ever smelted metal, in fact, I believe I have argued the opposite on a number of occasions. The fact that the ancestors of Australian aborigines possessed a society of sufficient complexity to build intercontinental watercraft, yet left no trace of their civilization (a pair of plain facts which I would be surprised if you were to dispute) discredits the charge you have made here.
Now, as soon as you think others will not see it, your aborigenes are again building intercontinental boats. Can you show us, by chance, a photograph of one of these intercontinental boats? Would you be surprised if they are not much more than big rafts? Remember, you are supposed to be proposing the worldwide distribution of the dinosaurs we know, not the island skipping done by the Australian aborigines. There is a big difference between a raft for two day voyages with a few rowing aborigines (which van be done completely in wood) and transoceanic vessels like the ones in your pictures, which require metals both as tools to carve the wood and as nails to give the boat some strength.

So, please either stop talking about aborigines and their rafts or stop talking about sixteenth century transoceanic boats. They are not similar and require vastly different technologies to build and use.

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #287 on: December 02, 2009, 04:30:13 AM »
Our test case was the Cretaceous North American Deinonychus, a 70kg dromaeosaur; and its most ubiquitous livestock, the Saurolophus, which we suggested would have been transported as yearlings to conserve space (the weight problem not being an issue with a well-engineered ship the size of the Mayflower, as we have discussed).

Which the class is still waiting for any actual evidence to be brought forth for, other than a story which has as much supporting evidence as "aliens did it".
"We know that the sun is 93 million miles away and takes up 5 degrees of the sky.

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trig

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #288 on: December 02, 2009, 09:33:18 AM »
Our test case was the Cretaceous North American Deinonychus, a 70kg dromaeosaur; and its most ubiquitous livestock, the Saurolophus, which we suggested would have been transported as yearlings to conserve space (the weight problem not being an issue with a well-engineered ship the size of the Mayflower, as we have discussed).

Which the class is still waiting for any actual evidence to be brought forth for, other than a story which has as much supporting evidence as "aliens did it".
Now that you say it, the "aliens did it" baseless speculation is less bad than the "intelligent dinosaurs did it" baseless speculation. At least you can say the aliens beamed all sorts and sizes of dinosaurs, other animals and plants from one continent to another, on an ongoing basis during all the triassic, jurassic and cretaceous in just the right times and places to make all of the fossil record possible.

James' speculation does not even explain why there are dinosaur fossils from all the Mesozoic era (triassic, jurassic and cretaceous) on all the continents, except maybe Antarctica.

I am really offended by the claims of James that the fossil record supports his speculation. As if you and others had not given enough examples of brain-dead speculations that are better than James', here goes my own: "I did it!" I found a time machine in my basement and decided to test it with my neighbor's parrots, and sent some to each continent. They arrived at the beginning of the triassic, horribly mutated, and evolved into what we call dinosaurs. And the best part is, the fossil record supports my theory, better than James'!

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #289 on: December 03, 2009, 09:36:13 AM »
So you have no proof for a flat earth and no proof for intelligent dinosaurs, are you gonna make another ignorant theory that has no supporting evidence, cause im all ears.

( but please make sure it is a little less absurd then the last to theories. )
Looks flat...wait...why is the light curved around it. never in a strait line

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #290 on: December 03, 2009, 01:27:05 PM »
Again, I'm afraid this is false. The most accessible counterexample is Australian pre-Aboriginal society, which necessarily constructed seaworthy boats and had the infrastructures necessary to build those boats. This deductive fact, which is (rightly) upheld by the mainstream anthropological community, is presented as the conclusion of an argument which is structurally similar to my own, with regard to cretaceous dromaeosaurs, and certain other prehistoric species.
This is such a carefully written remark that you can just miss the shift in objectives. "Seaworthy" is not the same as "transatlantic". And "seaworthy" does not mean their navigators were able to direct them through thousands of miles with no island in between, or with enough capacity to take livestock with them. You are trying to inflate the accomplishments of your Australian aboriginals with every new sentence, but the fact remains, they were hardly as technologically advanced as the Europeans when they finally were able and interested in transatlantic voyages.


Just picking up on this specific point: how do you explain the settlement of Hawaii?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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trig

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #291 on: December 03, 2009, 05:10:00 PM »
So you have no proof for a flat earth and no proof for intelligent dinosaurs, are you gonna make another ignorant theory that has no supporting evidence, cause im all ears.

( but please make sure it is a little less absurd then the last to theories. )
The point is, anyone can create a crackpot theory that fits a small part of our scientific evidence on a subject. Whether we are talking dinosaur nests surviving a transoceanic voyage, or dinosaurs making transoceanic trips and navigating their ships, or flying dinosaurs hopping between continents, or aliens moving dinosaurs to other continents, or time travelling parrots, or whatever you want invent, you can find a tiny part of the fossil record or the geological record that support it.

That is why scientist urge you to look at the preponderance of evidence, not at a single piece of it.

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trig

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #292 on: December 03, 2009, 05:13:56 PM »
Again, I'm afraid this is false. The most accessible counterexample is Australian pre-Aboriginal society, which necessarily constructed seaworthy boats and had the infrastructures necessary to build those boats. This deductive fact, which is (rightly) upheld by the mainstream anthropological community, is presented as the conclusion of an argument which is structurally similar to my own, with regard to cretaceous dromaeosaurs, and certain other prehistoric species.
This is such a carefully written remark that you can just miss the shift in objectives. "Seaworthy" is not the same as "transatlantic". And "seaworthy" does not mean their navigators were able to direct them through thousands of miles with no island in between, or with enough capacity to take livestock with them. You are trying to inflate the accomplishments of your Australian aboriginals with every new sentence, but the fact remains, they were hardly as technologically advanced as the Europeans when they finally were able and interested in transatlantic voyages.


Just picking up on this specific point: how do you explain the settlement of Hawaii?
I am not an expert in Hawaii. I am pretty sure there are reasonable hypothesis for every species that has arrived at those islands, and you would do us all a favor if you illustrated us with the findings of modern science about them.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #293 on: December 03, 2009, 05:44:16 PM »
There's no need for any detailed research. From wikipedia:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii#Pre-European_contact_.E2.80.94_Ancient_Hawaii_.28800-1778.29

Quote
The earliest habitation supported by archaeological evidence dates to as early as 300 BCE, probably by Polynesian settlers from the Marquesas, followed by a second wave of migration from Raiatea and Bora Bora in the 11th century. The first recorded European contact with the islands was in 1778 by British explorer James Cook.

Polynesians from the Marquesas and possibly the Society Islands may have first populated the Hawaiian Islands between 300 and 500 CE. There is a great deal of debate regarding these dates.[21]


So as you can see, given the geographic isolation of Hawaii, there is no reason to suppose that you need the kind of ocean-going boats Europeans used to acheive trans-oceanic voyages. Even in 1778 when Cook arrived, the boats used by Hawaiians were very simplistic.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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trig

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #294 on: December 03, 2009, 06:16:14 PM »
There's no need for any detailed research. From wikipedia:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii#Pre-European_contact_.E2.80.94_Ancient_Hawaii_.28800-1778.29

Quote
The earliest habitation supported by archaeological evidence dates to as early as 300 BCE, probably by Polynesian settlers from the Marquesas, followed by a second wave of migration from Raiatea and Bora Bora in the 11th century. The first recorded European contact with the islands was in 1778 by British explorer James Cook.

Polynesians from the Marquesas and possibly the Society Islands may have first populated the Hawaiian Islands between 300 and 500 CE. There is a great deal of debate regarding these dates.[21]


So as you can see, given the geographic isolation of Hawaii, there is no reason to suppose that you need the kind of ocean-going boats Europeans used to acheive trans-oceanic voyages. Even in 1778 when Cook arrived, the boats used by Hawaiians were very simplistic.
In that zone you have countless islands created by the busiest volcanic activity in the world, so the fishermen did not have to have enormous boats or great technological advancements to spread through those islands. Also, they were not carrying large animals to use as livestock, or large supplies of food and water.

What James is proposing is totally different: sailboats with capacity for tens of intelligent dinosaurs, with livestock, food, capacity to fish enormous sea animals, and good navigational skills to cross the oceans of the world.

Remember, James has to explain the propagation of hundreds or thousands of species of animals and plants during the Triassic, that is when the "other theory" explains this propagation with the existence of Pangea. And that is a little bit difficult when his intelligent dinosaurs existed during the Cretaceous, some 150 million years later after the Triassic. His boats have to carry food, water, tools, and, oh, yes, a time machine.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #295 on: December 03, 2009, 06:31:28 PM »
In that zone you have countless islands created by the busiest volcanic activity in the world, so the fishermen did not have to have enormous boats or great technological advancements to spread through those islands.


Do you know how far away the Marquesas islands (origin point of the Polynesian settlers) are from Hawaii? Spreading through the Hawaiian island chain itself may have been relatively easy, but the Marquesas are about 2,000 miles away, with no land in between. We're not talking about leapfrog here, but genuine oceanic travel.


Also, they were not carrying large animals to use as livestock, or large supplies of food and water.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Hawaii#Settlement

Quote
The colonists brought along with them clothing, plants and livestock and established settlements along the coasts and larger valleys. Upon their arrival, the settlers grew kalo (taro), maiʻa (banana), niu (coconut), ulu (breadfruit), and raised pua'a (pork), moa (chicken), and 'ilio (dog), although these meats were eaten less often than fruits, vegetables, and seafood. Popular condiments included pa'akai (salt), ground kukui nut, limu (seaweed), and ko (sugarcane) which was used as both a sweet and a medicine.[3] In addition to the foods they brought, the settlers also acquired 'uala (sweet potato), which has yet to be adequately explained, as the plant originates in South America. A few researchers have argued that the presence of the sweet potato in the ancient Hawaiian diet is evidence of pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact with the Americas.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #296 on: December 04, 2009, 04:29:54 AM »
So as you can see, given the geographic isolation of Hawaii, there is no reason to suppose that you need the kind of ocean-going boats Europeans used to acheive trans-oceanic voyages. Even in 1778 when Cook arrived, the boats used by Hawaiians were very simplistic.


For the dinosaurs, yes there is a necessary reason:

So now they can build ocean going ships with sails and steering systems, places for food, livestock, cargo, livestock, food and water for the licestock and a crew to maintain it.  What happened to the raft we started with?

We've now added the ability to know how to design and fabricate sails, create a system to steer the craft, to be able to accurately calculate the size and quantity of ships needed to hold the cargo.  They also have figured out how to calculate rations, fabricate sterile water containers, salt meat for preservation and create tools to fish with on the open sea and then haul a 60 foot long catch on board.

We started at birds can make simple hook shaped tools, then added dinosaurs were likely smarter and arrived at the above story with zero corroborating evidence for any of these abilities.

There's no "now" or "added", the theory that dinosaurs built high-quality seafaring vessels has been advanced for almost four years now. It is not extrapolated from the capabilities of birds, it is derived from consideration of the fossil record, though considering the capability of birds to build things is useful in suggesting that avians/dinosaurs are capable of anything. It is a corollary, it is not the main explanatory force of the argument.


Quote
The Mayflower, a human ship known to have made intercontinental voyages and built of wood, is estimated to have been just over 25 metres long, and had a cargo tonnage of 180 and a crew of around 25.

Now, let us assume Saurolophus as a test case for transportation (Deinonychus would likely have had other prey/farm animals as well, but Saurolophus would have been one of the largest), and we also assume that the transported Saurolophus would have been juveniles. A yearling might have weighed somewhere close to a ton (a fully grown bull weighs 1.9).

We've established that adult Deinonychus weighed at most 73kg.

There are 907 Kg in a short ton.

so, a livestock craft of this size could have carried the WEIGHT of around 180 juvenile Saurolophus (with a crew of 25 Deinonychus). However, each adult would have been 9.8 metres long, so nowhere near 180 individuals could fit on. If we consider that a yearling might have been half that length, (say 5M) and that the Mayflower was around 7.6 metres wide, the livestock could be "stacked" width-ways with bills and tails facing starboard and port. With each Saurolophus given 2 metres of the ship's length to accomodate their body width, 11 or 12 animals could be kept on a boat the size of the Mayflower, assuming a deck system existed for the crew to be accomodated. If we don't want to concede that the boat might have had a deck (which I am fine with doing, by the way), then removing 3 animals from that number would allow room for a crew on a single-deck raft. So, to summarise, a Mayflower-sized boat could carry between 9-12 Saurolophus.

A boat the size of the Mayflower [pictured below in a painting by William Halsall (1882)] could have held up to 12 young Saurolophus.
"We know that the sun is 93 million miles away and takes up 5 degrees of the sky.

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trig

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #297 on: December 04, 2009, 12:59:47 PM »

Do you know how far away the Marquesas islands (origin point of the Polynesian settlers) are from Hawaii? Spreading through the Hawaiian island chain itself may have been relatively easy, but the Marquesas are about 2,000 miles away, with no land in between. We're not talking about leapfrog here, but genuine oceanic travel.

Just to mention a few, there are: Jarvis Islands, Kiribati, the Palmyra Atoll, Kingman Reef and the Johnston Atoll. But apart from the big islands with known names, the whole area is near a huge fault that created (and continues to create) a great string of underwater mountains, some of which rise above sea level and constitute the aforementioned islands. Hawaii is also the result of the volcanic activity of the area and is surrounded by big and tiny islands.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Hawaii#Settlement

And the biggest livestock they carried was pigs. You do not need a great infrastructure to go from island to island, creating colonies in every intermediate step, and in that way requiring relatively simple boats and minimal supplies to cover large final distances. It is completely different than traveling long distances with no intermediate steps. In fact, the distance from Marquesas Islands to Hawaii is similar to the distance from Hawaii to mainland USA. but no Polynesians ever made that trip. Wonder why?

But the final point is that this speculation about intelligent dinosaurs doing transoceanic voyages has no evidence whatsoever that cannot be explained by the modern theories of Paleontology and has tons of evidence against it. The mere fact that James's intelligent dinosaurs, if they existed, lived about 70 millions of years ago and that the propagation of dinosaurs to all the continents occurred about 200 million years ago is enough evidence to throw away this speculation for good.

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #298 on: December 04, 2009, 02:08:30 PM »
I do not see the problem with accepting migration of dinosaurs. We have evidence of their fossils on all continents. This is not disputed. I suppose the dispute relates to how they migrated. Ultimately all organisms and matter take the path of least resistance. It is reasonable to expect a condition present that pressured dinosaurs to move, be it predatory, lack of food, etc. It is common knowledge and widely accepted that dinosaurs were intellectually superior to other species. They also had many advantages that we do not. For example, some of the species could fly, possibly scouting potential migratory locations. I do not limit their capability to just building a floating device. I suspect they could swim like the elephant does for miles, as they do now. As for storing food for the trip, we see squirrels storing food for the winter yet this fact is not denied. Did they communicate? Of course they did as do most species today. A simple look at the behavior of ants during a flood demonstrates the ability of animals to create crafts that float, even out of their own bodies. This "clumping" together of bodies would also explain the high ratio of dinosaur fossils discovered in oceanic regions.

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trig

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #299 on: December 04, 2009, 06:41:02 PM »
I do not see the problem with accepting migration of dinosaurs. We have evidence of their fossils on all continents. This is not disputed. I suppose the dispute relates to how they migrated. Ultimately all organisms and matter take the path of least resistance. It is reasonable to expect a condition present that pressured dinosaurs to move, be it predatory, lack of food, etc. It is common knowledge and widely accepted that dinosaurs were intellectually superior to other species. They also had many advantages that we do not. For example, some of the species could fly, possibly scouting potential migratory locations. I do not limit their capability to just building a floating device. I suspect they could swim like the elephant does for miles, as they do now. As for storing food for the trip, we see squirrels storing food for the winter yet this fact is not denied. Did they communicate? Of course they did as do most species today. A simple look at the behavior of ants during a flood demonstrates the ability of animals to create crafts that float, even out of their own bodies. This "clumping" together of bodies would also explain the high ratio of dinosaur fossils discovered in oceanic regions.
Now that you have a lot of "could have" propositions, it is time to do a little scientific investigation. We are not talking about extraterrestrials in Antares, we are talking about animals that left a fossil record immersed inside a geological record that lasted some 150 million years and is visible in every continent, except maybe Antarctica. Your speculations have to integrate acceptably with the available information, but do not.

Having separate pieces of a puzzle (flying animals, intellectually superior animals, animals that build things, animals that swim, animals that store food) is useless if the pieces are not fitted together. For example, how many birds have you seen talking to land animals?

You also require some evidence, not just speculation. What part of the available evidence is explained better by your speculations than by modern science's theories?