James's theory on dinosaurs

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #150 on: November 19, 2009, 03:35:17 PM »
How did these dinosaurs communicate? A culture such as James thinks existed would require advanced communication between dinosaurs, such as at the level of a language.
Don't ask stupid questions. Birds are around you wherever you live and you know how they communicate.

Yes, but all birds build are nests.  Birds don't farm, write inscriptions, or form complex societies like James is suggesting.

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Johannes

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #151 on: November 19, 2009, 03:39:11 PM »
How did these dinosaurs communicate? A culture such as James thinks existed would require advanced communication between dinosaurs, such as at the level of a language.
Don't ask stupid questions. Birds are around you wherever you live and you know how they communicate.

Yes, but all birds build are nests.  Birds don't farm, write inscriptions, or form complex societies like James is suggesting.
Nests are usually made out of wood. Wood has a density that will float.

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EireEngineer

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #152 on: November 19, 2009, 03:40:59 PM »
How did these dinosaurs communicate? A culture such as James thinks existed would require advanced communication between dinosaurs, such as at the level of a language.
Don't ask stupid questions. Birds are around you wherever you live and you know how they communicate.
Not in a sophisticated way capable of carrying more information than "Im here" though.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

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EireEngineer

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #153 on: November 19, 2009, 03:42:43 PM »
How did these dinosaurs communicate? A culture such as James thinks existed would require advanced communication between dinosaurs, such as at the level of a language.
Don't ask stupid questions. Birds are around you wherever you live and you know how they communicate.

Yes, but all birds build are nests.  Birds don't farm, write inscriptions, or form complex societies like James is suggesting.
Therefore what? Termites also build nests out of material that is capable of floating. Do they make boats?
Nests are usually made out of wood. Wood has a density that will float.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

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Johannes

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #154 on: November 19, 2009, 03:45:30 PM »
How did these dinosaurs communicate? A culture such as James thinks existed would require advanced communication between dinosaurs, such as at the level of a language.
Don't ask stupid questions. Birds are around you wherever you live and you know how they communicate.
Not in a sophisticated way capable of carrying more information than "Im here" though.
Birds fly together for thousands of miles and hunt together in packs. That seems pretty sophisticated to me.

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markjo

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #155 on: November 19, 2009, 03:48:32 PM »
Yes, but all birds build are nests.  Birds don't farm, write inscriptions, or form complex societies like James is suggesting.
Nests are usually made out of wood. Wood has a density that will float.
Depending on the species of bird, nests can be made of grass, mud, twigs, string or just about anything else.  However, most of these nests are built either on or above the ground.  Only a very few bird species build nests on the water.  Besides, why are we even discussing bird nests when dinosaur nests are more likely to resemble reptile nests than bird nests.

Quote from: http://www.cyberwest.com/cw16/16scwst2.html
University of Colorado at Boulder and Emory University researchers have discovered scores of ancient reptile nests in Arizona's Petrified Forest National Park, believed to be the oldest such nests ever found.

The fossil nests, dating to about 220 million years ago, are similar to modern-day crocodile and turtle nests, said Stephen Hasiotis, the CU-Boulder research associate who discovered them. Hasiotis and colleague Anthony Martin of Emory University in Atlanta believe the nests extend the fossil record of reptile nests by roughly 110 million years.

Can anyone provide any evidence of floating reptile nests?
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EireEngineer

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #156 on: November 19, 2009, 03:57:08 PM »
How did these dinosaurs communicate? A culture such as James thinks existed would require advanced communication between dinosaurs, such as at the level of a language.
Don't ask stupid questions. Birds are around you wherever you live and you know how they communicate.
Not in a sophisticated way capable of carrying more information than "Im here" though.
Birds fly together for thousands of miles and hunt together in packs. That seems pretty sophisticated to me.
Of course is "seems sophisticated" to you, since you take a VERY simplistic view of how things function. It takes far less information exchange to fly in formation or to loosely coordinate (and I do mean loosely) a hunting behavior then it does to explain the creation of a tool to someone.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #157 on: November 19, 2009, 03:57:16 PM »
Quote
There is no fossil evidence of the boats, and I never claimed there was. That would be a fairly contradictory position to hold. The evidence I am talking about has actually been linked to in this thread, but as usual none of you can be bothered to look. Here is one example:

What you linked isn't evidence. Yes I found some of it, no I'm not going to endlessly search.
"We know that the sun is 93 million miles away and takes up 5 degrees of the sky.

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Thermal Detonator

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #158 on: November 19, 2009, 04:25:39 PM »
How did these dinosaurs communicate? A culture such as James thinks existed would require advanced communication between dinosaurs, such as at the level of a language.
Don't ask stupid questions. Birds are around you wherever you live and you know how they communicate.

I can't believe you are as dense as this.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

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Johannes

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #159 on: November 19, 2009, 04:27:26 PM »
Yes, but all birds build are nests.  Birds don't farm, write inscriptions, or form complex societies like James is suggesting.
Nests are usually made out of wood. Wood has a density that will float.
Depending on the species of bird, nests can be made of grass, mud, twigs, string or just about anything else.  However, most of these nests are built either on or above the ground.  Only a very few bird species build nests on the water.  Besides, why are we even discussing bird nests when dinosaur nests are more likely to resemble reptile nests than bird nests.
You you going to accept the theory that Dinosaurs evolved into birds or not? Or you proposing alternative science?

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Johannes

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #160 on: November 19, 2009, 04:31:28 PM »
How did these dinosaurs communicate? A culture such as James thinks existed would require advanced communication between dinosaurs, such as at the level of a language.
Don't ask stupid questions. Birds are around you wherever you live and you know how they communicate.
Not in a sophisticated way capable of carrying more information than "Im here" though.
Birds fly together for thousands of miles and hunt together in packs. That seems pretty sophisticated to me.
Of course is "seems sophisticated" to you, since you take a VERY simplistic view of how things function. It takes far less information exchange to fly in formation or to loosely coordinate (and I do mean loosely) a hunting behavior then it does to explain the creation of a tool to someone.
The birds that fly in the "V" formation have a system of switching position to maximize speed and endurance. That is not "loose". Birds certainly have the capacity to do advanced mental functions.

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EireEngineer

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #161 on: November 19, 2009, 05:39:57 PM »
That is hardly an "advanced mental capacity", considering it is largely instinctual behavior.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

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markjo

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #162 on: November 19, 2009, 06:29:30 PM »
You you going to accept the theory that Dinosaurs evolved into birds or not? Or you proposing alternative science?
I'm saying that modern birds may have descended from dinosaurs, but modern birds are not dinosaurs, so I don't see how you can apply bird behavior to dinosaur behavior.  Modern birds are more than a steps up the evolutionary ladder than dinosaurs.  Modern reptiles such as alligators are much closer to dinosaurs than modern birds are.  Show me a modern reptile that builds floating nests and then I'll give the boat building dinosaur fantasy some more consideration.  Otherwise, you're just grasping at straws.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Johannes

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #163 on: November 19, 2009, 06:45:16 PM »
You you going to accept the theory that Dinosaurs evolved into birds or not? Or you proposing alternative science?
I'm saying that modern birds may have descended from dinosaurs, but modern birds are not dinosaurs, so I don't see how you can apply bird behavior to dinosaur behavior.  Modern birds are more than a steps up the evolutionary ladder than dinosaurs.  Modern reptiles such as alligators are much closer to dinosaurs than modern birds are.  Show me a modern reptile that builds floating nests and then I'll give the boat building dinosaur fantasy some more consideration.  Otherwise, you're just grasping at straws.
Proof?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #164 on: November 19, 2009, 06:59:50 PM »
Quote
Modern birds are more than a steps up the evolutionary ladder than dinosaurs.

You're making the rather large assumption that they got smarter as they got smaller.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 07:03:55 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #165 on: November 19, 2009, 07:44:42 PM »
Quote
Modern birds are more than a steps up the evolutionary ladder than dinosaurs.

You're making the rather large assumption that they got smarter as they got smaller.

Modern birds and dinosaurs are completely different critters.  You're the one making the rather large assumption that dinosaurs were all that smart to begin with.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 07:46:36 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #166 on: November 19, 2009, 07:59:17 PM »
Modern birds and dinosaurs are completely different critters.  You're the one making the rather large assumption that dinosaurs were all that smart to begin with.

"To begin with"?

Would that be the several billion years it took for them to become dinosaurs?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 08:00:59 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #167 on: November 19, 2009, 09:28:47 PM »
Modern birds and dinosaurs are completely different critters.  You're the one making the rather large assumption that dinosaurs were all that smart to begin with.

"To begin with"?

Would that be the several billion years it took for them to become dinosaurs?

*sigh*  No Tom, that would be the 200 million years or so that they were dinosaurs but weren't birds yet.

FYI Tom, using underline and italic tags is redundant as underlining text is a signal to the printer to use italics for the text being underlined during typesetting.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #168 on: November 19, 2009, 10:22:48 PM »
Modern birds and dinosaurs are completely different critters.  You're the one making the rather large assumption that dinosaurs were all that smart to begin with.

"To begin with"?

Would that be the several billion years it took for them to become dinosaurs?

*sigh*  No Tom, that would be the 200 million years or so that they were dinosaurs but weren't birds yet.

FYI Tom, using underline and italic tags is redundant as underlining text is a signal to the printer to use italics for the text being underlined during typesetting.

Several billion years to become dinosaurs seems to be only a little longer than the 200 million years it took to become birds.

Obviously they had to lose all sorts of stuff in order to become birds.

Why not intelligence?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #169 on: November 20, 2009, 02:20:00 AM »
Besides, why are we even discussing bird nests when dinosaur nests are more likely to resemble reptile nests than bird nests.


Why do you say that? Most scientists now agree that dinosaurs much have more in common with birds than modern reptiles, and many believe they were warm blooded to boot.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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SupahLovah

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #170 on: November 20, 2009, 06:28:05 AM »
Did you guys skip this on purpose?
Yes, but all birds build are nests.  Birds don't farm, write inscriptions, or form complex societies like James is suggesting.
Nests are usually made out of wood. Wood has a density that will float.
Depending on the species of bird, nests can be made of grass, mud, twigs, string or just about anything else.  However, most of these nests are built either on or above the ground.  Only a very few bird species build nests on the water.  Besides, why are we even discussing bird nests when dinosaur nests are more likely to resemble reptile nests than bird nests.

Quote from: http://www.cyberwest.com/cw16/16scwst2.html
University of Colorado at Boulder and Emory University researchers have discovered scores of ancient reptile nests in Arizona's Petrified Forest National Park, believed to be the oldest such nests ever found.

The fossil nests, dating to about 220 million years ago, are similar to modern-day crocodile and turtle nests, said Stephen Hasiotis, the CU-Boulder research associate who discovered them. Hasiotis and colleague Anthony Martin of Emory University in Atlanta believe the nests extend the fossil record of reptile nests by roughly 110 million years.

Can anyone provide any evidence of floating reptile nests?
"Study Gravitation; It's a field with a lot of potential!"

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trig

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #171 on: November 20, 2009, 07:50:49 AM »
You you going to accept the theory that Dinosaurs evolved into birds or not? Or you proposing alternative science?
This is why people like you are confused and eventually angered by science: you make such broad generalizations that they finally have no sense at all.

First, all dinosaurs did not evolve into birds. There are theories where some dinosaurs are related to birds.
Second, there is no clear path yet between some dinosaurs (like the T-Rex, for example) and modern birds. Maybe they had a common ancestor, maybe they branched off when some big dinosaurs already existed. Maybe they are so close that both had feathers, maybe not. Maybe some dinosaurs were warm blooded, maybe not.

You are intermixing theory with hypothesis, different geological eras, well, you are intermixing every aspect of archeology just to give this "dinosaur boats" idea a chance. Science does not work like that.

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trig

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #172 on: November 20, 2009, 08:01:28 AM »
Besides, why are we even discussing bird nests when dinosaur nests are more likely to resemble reptile nests than bird nests.


Why do you say that? Most scientists now agree that dinosaurs much have more in common with birds than modern reptiles, and many believe they were warm blooded to boot.
You are trying to use a very old misconception to make your weak point: Dinosaurs never have had much to do with reptiles. The very first archeologists made that mistake and tried by all means to show dinosaurs creeping along with their tails lying on the ground. This has been rectified decades ago and now the name "dinosaur", which means "terrible lizard", is kept for historical reasons only.

On the other hand, birds and dinosaurs have a closer relationship but one that is still being investigated. This does not mean their nests were similar to birds nests, for a simple reason: weight.

Birds can nest in trees, dinosaurs could not. Birds can make nests that stand their own weight, but dinosaurs could not, except maybe for the lightest ones. Every species has to use the materials that work for their weight.

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Crustinator

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #173 on: November 20, 2009, 09:04:30 AM »
Right back atchya'.

::) You really are refusing to read the evidence I gave you? That's cool.

No, you disagree. Leading scientists in the field agree, as my sources show.

Nope. Not one of your sources agrees that "the tools created by crows in these experiments as far more impressive than the various ways of hitting things that apes have devised."

The point is rather academic. It doesn't matter which is "more impressive". A twig bending crow does not a dinotopia make.


Quote
A floating nest does not a seafaring dinotopia create.

The ability to build rafts would, however, and we have shown this to be possible.

Once again, no you haven't.

Please provide us with evidence that there is more petrified wood from that period than from, say, 40,000 years ago.

Why would I need to do that?! ??? If you think it'll help your argument there's a wikipedia article. Check the dates on all the petrified wood sites.

There is no fossil evidence of the boats

Oh good. I'm glad we got that sorted.

The evidence I am talking about has actually been linked to in this thread, but as usual none of you can be bothered to look. Here is one example:

...snip...
The colonist Deinonychuses who reached the far east adapted in a number of ways. Adasauruses, probably due to massively increased tool usage and the removal of the necessity to be involved in violence as their civilisation progressed, developed much smaller foot-claws than their ancestors. A smaller claw would have been much more suitable for precision tasks like inscription, manipulation of cloth and fine materials and so on, and marks the transition from its role as a mechanism of hunting and combat to its role as an additional dexterous digit.

Hold. On. Are you telling me your "source" is James?

The "source" whose theory is under discussion?

Your evidence for James being right about colonial seafaring dinosaurs is that James posted some stuff about colonial seafaring dinosaurs?

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Thermal Detonator

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #174 on: November 20, 2009, 10:15:19 AM »
I'm still waiting for a summary of communication methods used by dinofarmers. The question got hijacked by Kathleen Amin back there.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

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Johannes

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #175 on: November 20, 2009, 12:40:35 PM »
You you going to accept the theory that Dinosaurs evolved into birds or not? Or you proposing alternative science?
This is why people like you are confused and eventually angered by science: you make such broad generalizations that they finally have no sense at all.

First, all dinosaurs did not evolve into birds. There are theories where some dinosaurs are related to birds.
Second, there is no clear path yet between some dinosaurs (like the T-Rex, for example) and modern birds. Maybe they had a common ancestor, maybe they branched off when some big dinosaurs already existed. Maybe they are so close that both had feathers, maybe not. Maybe some dinosaurs were warm blooded, maybe not.

You are intermixing theory with hypothesis, different geological eras, well, you are intermixing every aspect of archeology just to give this "dinosaur boats" idea a chance. Science does not work like that.
I have personally seen the Archeopteryx

Seems pretty damn clear birds are descendants of dinosaurs.

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trig

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #176 on: November 20, 2009, 12:46:47 PM »
You you going to accept the theory that Dinosaurs evolved into birds or not? Or you proposing alternative science?
This is why people like you are confused and eventually angered by science: you make such broad generalizations that they finally have no sense at all.

First, all dinosaurs did not evolve into birds. There are theories where some dinosaurs are related to birds.
Second, there is no clear path yet between some dinosaurs (like the T-Rex, for example) and modern birds. Maybe they had a common ancestor, maybe they branched off when some big dinosaurs already existed. Maybe they are so close that both had feathers, maybe not. Maybe some dinosaurs were warm blooded, maybe not.

You are intermixing theory with hypothesis, different geological eras, well, you are intermixing every aspect of archeology just to give this "dinosaur boats" idea a chance. Science does not work like that.
I have personally seen the Archeopteryx

Seems pretty damn clear birds are descendants of dinosaurs.
One of many species of dinosaurs is the Archaeopteryx. There is no evidence yet to link it to either other dinosaurs or birds and there is no evidence whatsoever that it used any tools. Again, you can only come up with gross generalizations.

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markjo

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #177 on: November 20, 2009, 01:29:51 PM »
I have personally seen the Archeopteryx
I rater doubt that, unless you're much older than you let on.  I'm guessing that you've personally seen the fossilized remains of Archeopteryx.

Seems pretty damn clear birds are descendants of dinosaurs.
But where is it said that dinosaurs and birds must have the same behavioral patterns?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #178 on: November 20, 2009, 01:50:50 PM »
Quote
Modern birds are more than a steps up the evolutionary ladder than dinosaurs.

You're making the rather large assumption that they got smarter as they got smaller.

Says the person claiming seafaring merchant dinosaurs.
"We know that the sun is 93 million miles away and takes up 5 degrees of the sky.

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Johannes

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Re: James's theory on dinosaurs
« Reply #179 on: November 20, 2009, 01:57:36 PM »
You you going to accept the theory that Dinosaurs evolved into birds or not? Or you proposing alternative science?
This is why people like you are confused and eventually angered by science: you make such broad generalizations that they finally have no sense at all.

First, all dinosaurs did not evolve into birds. There are theories where some dinosaurs are related to birds.
Second, there is no clear path yet between some dinosaurs (like the T-Rex, for example) and modern birds. Maybe they had a common ancestor, maybe they branched off when some big dinosaurs already existed. Maybe they are so close that both had feathers, maybe not. Maybe some dinosaurs were warm blooded, maybe not.

You are intermixing theory with hypothesis, different geological eras, well, you are intermixing every aspect of archeology just to give this "dinosaur boats" idea a chance. Science does not work like that.
I have personally seen the Archeopteryx

Seems pretty damn clear birds are descendants of dinosaurs.
One of many species of dinosaurs is the Archaeopteryx. There is no evidence yet to link it to either other dinosaurs or birds and there is no evidence whatsoever that it used any tools. Again, you can only come up with gross generalizations.
Archeopteryx is a bird. Birds build nests. Birds travel large distances. The Archeopteryx came from dinosaurs. It reasonably follows then that it is possible for dinosaurs to have traveled across large bodies of water in nests