God is not the logical way to live life.

Logically life doesn't make any sense to have a god watching over the universe because how can a god let something like the War on terror even happen?

Hell was created for control, just like the bible and other scriptures of religion.

Humans cannot accept change if it challenges individual beliefs

Logically life doesn't make any sense to have a god watching over the universe because how can a god let something like the War on terror even happen?

Hell was created for control, just like the bible and other scriptures of religion.

Humans cannot accept change if it challenges individual beliefs

It's called free will.

Logically life doesn't make any sense to have a god watching over the universe because how can a god let something like the War on terror even happen?

Hell was created for control, just like the bible and other scriptures of religion.

Humans cannot accept change if it challenges individual beliefs

The Bible is only concerned with one race  - the Israelites. Where did jesus go to? ''But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel'' (matt 15: 24) Jesus only came for the israelites.

The reason africa is filled with starving people etc and are in terrible condition is because they are not Israelites.

You have to understand the birthright in the bible to understand. Also as mentioned above also because of free will, also most importantly the fall of adam and eve.

Quote from: Long_For_Life on November 11, 2009, 02:28:48 PM

Logically life doesn't make any sense to have a god watching over the universe because how can a god let something like the War on terror even happen?

Hell was created for control, just like the bible and other scriptures of religion.

Humans cannot accept change if it challenges individual beliefs

The Bible is only concerned with one race  - the Israelites. Where did jesus go to? ''But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel'' (matt 15: 24) Jesus only came for the israelites.

The Apostles disagree. Why in Romans 11:11-13 say (emphasis mine):

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Fascinating. You fail. 

The reason africa is filled with starving people etc and are in terrible condition is because they are not Israelites.

What an interesting, heretical, and somewhat racist comment.

The Apostles disagree. Why in Romans 11:11-13 say (emphasis mine):

The word Gentile is not used in any Hebrew manuscript of the Old Testament, there is no such word in Hebrew. Everywhere you find the word Gentile used in the Old Testament, it is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word Goy, which means nation or ''people''.

Wherever you see the word Gentile in the Bible, the correct word is nation, or people as noted, in the Bible this is often used when speaking of israel nations or descendants of Israel. The ''gentiles'' that the apostles preached to were simply also israelites

Now consider Matt 10: 5-6 which could not say it any clearer

''These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans''

''But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel''

Only Paul was sent to the ''gentiles'', who were not non-israelites by definition. Gentile simply means ''nation''.

You have to understand the true definition of certain biblical words before you attempt to try and understand the bible.

You have no idea what the bible is about.

What an interesting, heretical, and somewhat racist comment.

You have no idea what the bible is about, let's leave it at that.

The bible contradicts itself countless times. Want the list?

The bible contradicts itself countless times. Want the list?

How can you make a list off of an uncountable set?!

Quote

The Apostles disagree. Why in Romans 11:11-13 say (emphasis mine):

The word Gentile is not used in any Hebrew manuscript of the Old Testament, there is no such word in Hebrew. Everywhere you find the word Gentile used in the Old Testament, it is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word Goy, which means nation or ''people''.

That's because the New Testament, where Romans is, is written in Greek. Are you seriously trying to tell us I'm wrong because the word Gentile doesn't occur in the Hebrew Old Testament.... when I'm quoting the Greek New Testament? My God, your weird.

Wherever you see the word Gentile in the Bible, the correct word is nation, or people as noted, in the Bible this is often used when speaking of israel nations or descendants of Israel. The ''gentiles'' that the apostles preached to were simply also israelites

I've never heard that before.

Now consider Matt 10: 5-6 which could not say it any clearer

''These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans''

''But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel''

Only Paul was sent to the ''gentiles'', who were not non-israelites by definition. Gentile simply means ''nation''.

You have to understand the true definition of certain biblical words before you attempt to try and understand the bible.

You have no idea what the bible is about.

Fascinating opinion you got there. I don't care, and you are wrong.

Quote

What an interesting, heretical, and somewhat racist comment.

You have no idea what the bible is about, let's leave it at that.

You thought the Book of Romans was located in the Old Testament and/or written in Hebrew! Your hardly one to be assuming a condescending attitude.




Your refutation isn't valid because it is based on the incorrect belief that:

1. Paul's Letter to the Romans is part of the Hebrew Torah, the Old Testament, and written in Hebrew

I hate to break it to you, but the New Testament is written in Greek and Aramaic.  

Nice try though, but some of us Christians actually know the basic history of the Bible (details of the manuscripts and which languages they were written in) and basic theology (Gentiles are also saved).

Just how much lower can you sink? Are you going to claim that the Latin Vulgate was satanically inspired? Claim that the King James Version was written by Arius? Maybe next you'll claim that Martin Luther was one of the Apostolic Fathers?

I'm actually having a hard time believing that anyone would be so stupid as to try and refute a New Testament verse about the Gentiles by pointing out that the word doesn't exist in the Old Testament and claiming that the Pauline letters were written in Hebrew!

Please explain just why Paul, a Roman citizen, writing a letter to the Church in Rome, would write in Hebrew instead of the vernacular written language of the day spoken by the recipients.

Quote from: Areweonfiya on November 11, 2009, 11:03:35 PM

The bible contradicts itself countless times. Want the list?

How can you make a list off of an uncountable set?!

I confess, I'm a little surprised/disappointed that neither of you managed to catch the fact that he thinks Romans is either in the Old Testament and was written in Hebrew...

And I'm embarrassed for my religion. Please understand that the Theology he's spewing is totally beyond the pale, and that his tendency to spit venom is only a characteristic of the fundamentalist minority.

That's because the New Testament, where Romans is, is written in Greek. Are you seriously trying to tell us I'm wrong because the word Gentile doesn't occur in the Hebrew Old Testament.... when I'm quoting the Greek New Testament? My God, your weird.

The word gentile was mistranslated.

Now anyone with basic knowledge on the bible would know where gentile derived, it was of a Latin etymology, stemming from the Romans Gens (Greek: genos). A Gentile meant someone who had NON-ROMAN citizenship.

Now, the word gentile was used to replace Goy, which simply meant NATION. Therefore when we read Gentile across the bible, it simply means nation or a people.

Therefore, Jesus and the apostles did not intend to spread their message to the entire world, only select NATIONS (people).

Where did Jesus send all but one of his apostles to?

"I was not sent but unto the LOST sheep of the House of Israel."
Matthew 15:24

Sending forth the Disciples, He says:
"But go rather to the LOST sheep of the House of Israel."

Matthew 10:6
The lost sheep of Israel.  Its clear in the scripture.

Are you blind, ignorant or just trying to pervert and alter the bible to fit your own agenda?

And only Paul was sent to what the bible says gentiles meaning nation, what nation did he go to The Israelites still. You are following a false translation of the word gentile, it does not mean non-israelite, it simply means nation.

I've never heard that before.

The word gentile is correctly defined (with etymology) on sites as mainstream as Wikipedia. You have no idea what you are typing, and are probably just making silly posts for an argument.

Fascinating opinion you got there. I don't care, and you are wrong.

You have proven you twist the scripture and redefine/mistranslated words.

1. Paul's Letter to the Romans is part of the Hebrew Torah, the Old Testament, and written in Hebrew

I hate to break it to you, but the New Testament is written in Greek and Aramaic.  

Where did i write i believe the OT was written in greek?
I said the word gentile was mistranslated from nation to meaning non-israelite.
You have no understanding of the bible and not have only been proven as someone who twists/mistranslates it but also a liar. You are typing things i never said.

Read deuteronomy 7: 6 before you reply and more stupidity.

''For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

The word gentile was mistranslated.

I'm betting real translators disagree.

Now anyone with basic knowledge on the bible would know where gentile derived, it was of a Latin etymology, stemming from the Romans Gens (Greek: genos). A Gentile meant someone who had NON-ROMAN citizenship.

So Jesus, and basically every major figure of the Bible excepting Paul was a Gentile? Are you really trying to take this theological route?

Now, the word gentile was used to replace Goy, which simply meant NATION. Therefore when we read Gentile across the bible, it simply means nation or a people.

Therefore, Jesus and the apostles did not intend to spread their message to the entire world, only select NATIONS (people).

Where did Jesus send all but one of his apostles to?

"I was not sent but unto the LOST sheep of the House of Israel."
Matthew 15:24

Sending forth the Disciples, He says:
"But go rather to the LOST sheep of the House of Israel."

Matthew 10:6
The lost sheep of Israel.  Its clear in the scripture.

Matthew 28:19, the Great Commision: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

 

Are you blind, ignorant or just trying to pervert and alter the bible to fit your own agenda?

No... just quoting the Great Commission.

And only Paul was sent to what the bible says gentiles meaning nation, what nation did he go to The Israelites still. You are following a false translation of the word gentile, it does not mean non-israelite, it simply means nation.

Real translators disagree with your amateur opinion.

The word gentile is correctly defined (with etymology) on sites as mainstream as Wikipedia. You have no idea what you are typing, and are probably just making silly posts for an argument.

Then why have real translators for hundred of years not noticed this error?

You have proven you twist the scripture and redefine/mistranslated words.

I think I'll take the opinion of thousands of Bible translators for centuries over your's.

Where did i write i believe the OT was written in greek?

When you started criticizing a New Testament verse on the basis that one of its words wasn't present in the Hebrew language. 

I said the word gentile was mistranslated from nation to meaning non-israelite.
You have no understanding of the bible and not have only been proven as someone who twists/mistranslates it but also a liar. You are typing things i never said.

Ok, whatever. Keep up the ad hominems. I enjoy having the moral high ground handed to me for free.

Read deuteronomy 7: 6 before you reply and more stupidity.

''For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Yes, that doesn't mean Jesus saved only the Jews.

Matthew 28:19, the Great Commision: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

Yes, nations which descend from the israelites. Hence this passages follows what was said earlier in Matthew:

''I was not sent but unto the LOST sheep of the House of Israel."
- Matthew 15:24

"But go rather to the LOST sheep of the House of Israel."
- Matthew 10:6

Jesus and the apostles only were sent to those that descended from Israel.

Learn to read the Bible (in the correct order), not just use selective quotes.

Then why have real translators for hundred of years not noticed this error?

Tell me what you think ''gentile'' means. I've already given you it's definition.

Yes, that doesn't mean Jesus saved only the Jews.

Jews are Judah, not Israel.

In fact the first place we read of the jew in the bible, they are at war with israel. As i said you don't know anything.

something you should learn:

http://www.plaintruth.com/the_plain_truth/2008/10/bible-fact-no-19-noah-abraham-isaac-jacob-not-jews.html

Posted: October 26, 2008

One of the most common misconceptions some people have about the Bible is that the Old Testament centers only on Jews and Judaism, while the New Testament focuses on Christians and Christianity.

Many assume some of the most well-known heroes ? including Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (whose named was changed to Israel) ? were Jews or Jewish.

But when the Holy Scriptures are read without any preconceived notions, it is impossible for those people to have been Jews.

How can this be?

The answer is simple. Those people were all born before a man named Judah, whose name is the origin of the word "Jew."

This is just one of the stunning facts brought to light in "Shocked by the Bible: The Most Astonishing Facts You've Never Been Told," the stunning new best-seller by Joe Kovacs, the executive news editor of WND.


Shocked by the Bible: The Most Astonishing Facts You've Never Been Told
 By Joe Kovacs Page 188

the initial instance of the word jews in the bible is the very time when Israel is at war with the jews.

Quote from: Areweonfiya on November 11, 2009, 11:03:35 PM

The bible contradicts itself countless times. Want the list?

How can you make a list off of an uncountable set?!

Because it was a hyperbole. Is it really necessary to point out things like that for you?

something you should learn:

http://www.plaintruth.com/the_plain_truth/2008/10/bible-fact-no-19-noah-abraham-isaac-jacob-not-jews.html

Posted: October 26, 2008

One of the most common misconceptions some people have about the Bible is that the Old Testament centers only on Jews and Judaism, while the New Testament focuses on Christians and Christianity.

Many assume some of the most well-known heroes ? including Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (whose named was changed to Israel) ? were Jews or Jewish.

But when the Holy Scriptures are read without any preconceived notions, it is impossible for those people to have been Jews.

How can this be?

The answer is simple. Those people were all born before a man named Judah, whose name is the origin of the word "Jew."

This is just one of the stunning facts brought to light in "Shocked by the Bible: The Most Astonishing Facts You've Never Been Told," the stunning new best-seller by Joe Kovacs, the executive news editor of WND.


Shocked by the Bible: The Most Astonishing Facts You've Never Been Told
 By Joe Kovacs Page 188

the initial instance of the word jews in the bible is the very time when Israel is at war with the jews.

So, because there was no Judaism before they started it they can't be Jews? By that logic, Jesus was not a Christian because they didn't exist before  he created it. You're either an excellent troll or pedantic twat. Either way you have no idea what you're talking about.

So, because there was no Judaism before they started it they can't be Jews? By that logic, Jesus was not a Christian because they didn't exist before  he created it. You're either an excellent troll or pedantic twat. Either way you have no idea what you're talking about.

More idiotic posts i see.

Jew = Judah/Judahite, not Judaism. The religion of the OT is HEBREWISM, nothing to do with Judaism.

The origin of Judaism is Talmudic not biblical.

go read a book...

Quote

So, because there was no Judaism before they started it they can't be Jews? By that logic, Jesus was not a Christian because they didn't exist before  he created it. You're either an excellent troll or pedantic twat. Either way you have no idea what you're talking about.

More idiotic posts i see.

Jew = Judah/Judahite, not Judaism. The religion of the OT is HEBREWISM, nothing to do with Judaism.

The origin of Judaism is Talmudic not biblical.

go read a book...

To summarize:
House of Judah= Foundation of Jewish faith
Hebrewism= Separate religion that you brought up because you're a pedant.
Nord= Troll.
Got it.

When Nord posts, the great Theologians and Doctors of the Church: Augustine, Aquinas, John Chrysostom, Ambrose, Athanasius and Irenaeus all roll over and moan in agony in their graves.

To summarize:
House of Judah= Foundation of Jewish faith
Hebrewism= Separate religion that you brought up because you're a pedant.
Nord= Troll.
Got it.

"The return from Babylon and the introduction of the Babylonian Talmud mark the end of Hebrewism and the beginning of Judaism."
- Rabbi Stephen F. Wise, Chief Rabbi of the United States

Yes you are clueless...

When Nord posts, the great Theologians and Doctors of the Church: Augustine, Aquinas, John Chrysostom, Ambrose, Athanasius and Irenaeus all roll over and moan in agony in their graves.

Also whom were all Yec's and believed earth was 6,000 years old, especially Augustine. Yet how long do you believe the earth is again? billions...so i don't think it would be wise to quote people who would consider you a heretic.

Quote from: Long_For_Life on November 11, 2009, 02:28:48 PM

Logically life doesn't make any sense to have a god watching over the universe because how can a god let something like the War on terror even happen?

Hell was created for control, just like the bible and other scriptures of religion.

Humans cannot accept change if it challenges individual beliefs

It's called free will.

Also known as God's 'Get Out of Personal Responsibility Free' card

Quote from: Pete on November 13, 2009, 11:44:07 AM

When Nord posts, the great Theologians and Doctors of the Church: Augustine, Aquinas, John Chrysostom, Ambrose, Athanasius and Irenaeus all roll over and moan in agony in their graves.

Also whom were all Yec's and believed earth was 6,000 years old, especially Augustine. Yet how long do you believe the earth is again? billions...so i don't think it would be wise to quote people who would consider you a heretic.

*Watches Nord try and change the subject* 

Considering the fact that they all affirmed that Jesus came for all people's, you'd not be considered any less heretical then I, with your rather unorthodox theology. 

Quote

To summarize:
House of Judah= Foundation of Jewish faith
Hebrewism= Separate religion that you brought up because you're a pedant.
Nord= Troll.
Got it.

"The return from Babylon and the introduction of the Babylonian Talmud mark the end of Hebrewism and the beginning of Judaism."
- Rabbi Stephen F. Wise, Chief Rabbi of the United States

Yes you are clueless...

If it marked the end of Hebrewism and the beginning of Judaism, how am I wrong? They're still separate religions. You're a terrible troll and you haven't proven any of my statements false. Try again.

Quote from: Nord on November 13, 2009, 01:54:26 PM

Quote

To summarize:
House of Judah= Foundation of Jewish faith
Hebrewism= Separate religion that you brought up because you're a pedant.
Nord= Troll.
Got it.

"The return from Babylon and the introduction of the Babylonian Talmud mark the end of Hebrewism and the beginning of Judaism."
- Rabbi Stephen F. Wise, Chief Rabbi of the United States

Yes you are clueless...

If it marked the end of Hebrewism and the beginning of Judaism, how am I wrong? They're still separate religions. You're a terrible troll and you haven't proven any of my statements false. Try again.

You stated Judaism comes from the tribe of Judah. to quote your exact words:

''House of Judah= Foundation of Jewish faith''

''So, because there was no Judaism before they started it they can't be Jews?''

You think Judahites invented Judaism. But as i explained, it was Jews who invented Judaism after the return to Babylon. You won't understand this because you think modern jews = Judah. There are several definitions for what a jew is, 1. by race. 2. by geography 3. by religion. So i'm not sure what you are using. When i said jews = judah i meant via geography, hence why we have paul in the bible declare he became a jew but was an original israelite.

Btw, you are the troll and it's obvious looking at your immature avatar and display name.

Considering the fact that they all affirmed that Jesus came for all people's, you'd not be considered any less heretical then I, with your rather unorthodox theology. 

Odd you call it unorthodox considering in Jesus's own words, he only returned to the lost sheep of israel.

You went silent on this quote. Nothing you say or believe removes it from scripture.

Unless you are an Israelite, the Bible has nothing to do with you. Are you denying Jacob (Israel) was given the birthright?

i don't mind responding to posts here...but your posts are just stupid.

Also there are many quotes from early church fathers which support what i've said, most notebly Tertullian. Not sure what you've been reading, but it seems you are just using the bible for your own agenda to preach world love, equality and peace. The bible is not communism.

Quote from: Nord on November 13, 2009, 01:54:26 PM

Quote

To summarize:
House of Judah= Foundation of Jewish faith
Hebrewism= Separate religion that you brought up because you're a pedant.
Nord= Troll.
Got it.

"The return from Babylon and the introduction of the Babylonian Talmud mark the end of Hebrewism and the beginning of Judaism."
- Rabbi Stephen F. Wise, Chief Rabbi of the United States

Yes you are clueless...

If it marked the end of Hebrewism and the beginning of Judaism, how am I wrong? They're still separate religions. You're a terrible troll and you haven't proven any of my statements false. Try again.

Look, if you want to continue this debate, you need to define/understand what a jew is. There is 3 meanings, and as i said in my earlier post you havent stated what you believe or are using. This is why you don't understand what i'm saying.

Paul for example was an israelite racially but who became a jew by geographical definition. he was not racially a jew, neither was he a jew by religion.

Nord, are you an Israelite?

Nord, are you an Israelite?

Seems likely. He seems rather obsessed with the idea that Jesus came only to save the Jews. I'm going to bet he's a Messianic Jew.


5 cookies to anyone who can find that Nord's position is heretical and which Church council anathematized it.

Of course, that position is so insane, I doubt the Church has ever bothered. The Church usually only bothers condemning heresies that might actually fool people. The Church Fathers didn't feed trolls.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on November 13, 2009, 05:20:58 PM

Nord, are you an Israelite?

Seems likely. He seems rather obsessed with the idea that Jesus came only to save the Jews. I'm going to bet he's a Messianic Jew.


5 cookies to anyone who can find that Nord's position is heretical and which Church council anathematized it.

Of course, that position is so insane, I doubt the Church has ever bothered. The Church usually only bothers condemning heresies that might actually fool people. The Church Fathers didn't feed trolls.

despite the fact i've repeated 3 or 4 times jews are not israel. Jesus returned for the israelites, not the jews.

why do you think they were the LOST TRIBES of Israel...and who did jesus come for...the lost sheep of israel...

it's not rocket science.
it's up to us to personally identify where the israelites migrated to as the bible teaches and what people descend from them.