Egyptians "believed" RET

  • 67 Replies
  • 16928 Views
Egyptians "believed" RET
« on: November 04, 2009, 11:41:36 PM »
Earatosthenes measured the circumfrence of the Earth On June 21 2200 years ago. In Alexandria Egypt. He had to make two measurements of the angles made by shadows at two different locations. Syene and Alexandria. If the Earth was flat.Then, there would be no shadows cast by both sticks at different locations. Given that the Sun is overhead at noon. But, there was a shadow cast at Alexandria at noon. While there was no shadow cast at Syene. That can only happen to a planet if the shape is round. So a helper helped him measure the distance between Alexandria and Syene (800km). From the shadow lenght in Alexandria,the angle A can be measured. But,from simple geometry if two parallel straight lines are transected by a third line,the alternate interior angles are equal. Angle B equals angle A. So,by measuring the shadow lenght in Alexandria,Eratosthenes concluded that Syene was A = B = 7 (seven degrees is (7deg/360 deg) or1/50th the circumfrence of the Earth ) away on the circumfrence of the Earth. Eight hundred kilometers * 50 is 40,000 km. So,that's the circumfrence of the Earth.He was the first person to measure a planet.

Any FE wanna have a crack at this?

*

Username

  • President of The Flat Earth Society
  • Administrator
  • 18223
  • +41/-77
  • Most Accurate Scientist Ever
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2009, 11:48:58 PM »
Eratosthenes experiment can be interpretted two ways.  Draw out that triangle and solve it the other way.
If you can't argue both bofth sides, you understand unjderstand neiher

?

Vattu

  • 14
  • +0/-0
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2009, 01:35:50 AM »
more measurement points need to be acquainted for to be sure that the earth is round and not flat.

same situation (different shadow sizes on different places) would occur even on a flat earth, since the sun is not infinitely far away.

3 measurement points should be enough if you know the distance to the sun.

*

Username

  • President of The Flat Earth Society
  • Administrator
  • 18223
  • +41/-77
  • Most Accurate Scientist Ever
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2009, 01:42:00 AM »
if you know the distance to the sun.
If you can't argue both bofth sides, you understand unjderstand neiher

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 18033
  • +6/-9
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2009, 04:48:44 AM »
Earatosthenes' experiment can also tell us the distance to the flat earth sun, in addition the the FE's diameter, if we use his figures under the assumption that the earth is a plane.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • 45091
  • +87/-122
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2009, 01:13:47 PM »
Eratosthenes experiment can be interpretted two ways.  Draw out that triangle and solve it the other way.

Earatosthenes' experiment can also tell us the distance to the flat earth sun, in addition the the FE's diameter, if we use his figures under the assumption that the earth is a plane.

Eratosthenes also assumed that light travels in a straight line.  The problem with doing the experiment when assuming a flat earth is that the results keep changing as you make observations from different locations and plug in different angles and base lines.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

trig

  • 2240
  • +0/-0
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2009, 07:21:01 AM »
Eratosthenes only tried to measure Earth, assuming a spherical Earth and a very far away Sun, both of which were already known with a reasonable level of certainty by better learned people of the time.

What is not explained by any "FE theorists" is the well known fact, corroborated by most navigators since at least the last 500 years, that traveling 60 nautical miles due North makes all celestial bodies appear 1 degree further South. In a sense, this is Eratosthenes' experiment repeated in all latitudes, by navigators from all over the world, too many times to count. In fact, the sextant, the most important navigational equipment of last millennium, is based on this observation.

A flat Earth and any assortment of hypothesis set out in this forum can explain one, or a few observations like Eratosthenes' but no FE hypothesis yet can even start to explain why this observation, made from any place on Earth, gives the same result ( 1 degree every 60 NM) and simultaneously why the Sun, Moon, planets and stars all have about the same brightness when they are close to the zenith with respect to when they are close to the horizon.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 07:49:30 AM by trig »

?

trig

  • 2240
  • +0/-0
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2009, 07:25:04 AM »
Earatosthenes' experiment can also tell us the distance to the flat earth sun, in addition the the FE's diameter, if we use his figures under the assumption that the earth is a plane.
If you repeat this experiment at different latitudes you get a different "distance to the sun". That, in itself, destroys your notion that this experiment serves your purposes. If an experiment gives different values for something that in your model is "constant", then your whole model is useless and wrong.

?

trig

  • 2240
  • +0/-0
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2009, 07:48:16 AM »
Eratosthenes experiment can be interpretted two ways.  Draw out that triangle and solve it the other way.
The answer is 800/(Sin(7.5))=6129 km, or 3809 miles.

This answer is already more than 800 miles farther away than predicted by the FE "model" and becomes much, much worse when the experiment is repeated at several latitudes and compared.

?

Crustinator

  • 7783
  • +0/-0
  • Bamhammer horror!
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2009, 09:22:03 AM »
if you know the distance to the sun.

Actually you don't need to know the distance to the sun.

A good enough approximation exists without incorporating this distance.

?

Vattu

  • 14
  • +0/-0
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2009, 01:00:07 AM »
if you know the distance to the sun.

Actually you don't need to know the distance to the sun.

A good enough approximation exists without incorporating this distance.
that's partly incorrect. in calculations within the RET, we can approximate the distance to the sun to infinity, thus making all sun beams parallell to eachother. but in FET, the sun is fairly close, and such an approximation would be too inaccurate.

*

Username

  • President of The Flat Earth Society
  • Administrator
  • 18223
  • +41/-77
  • Most Accurate Scientist Ever
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2009, 01:15:58 AM »
Eratosthenes experiment can be interpretted two ways.  Draw out that triangle and solve it the other way.
The answer is 800/(Sin(7.5))=6129 km, or 3809 miles.

This answer is already more than 800 miles farther away than predicted by the FE "model" and becomes much, much worse when the experiment is repeated at several latitudes and compared.
Show me the data.
If you can't argue both bofth sides, you understand unjderstand neiher

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 18033
  • +6/-9
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2009, 04:35:03 PM »
Eratosthenes experiment can be interpretted two ways.  Draw out that triangle and solve it the other way.
The answer is 800/(Sin(7.5))=6129 km, or 3809 miles.

This answer is already more than 800 miles farther away than predicted by the FE "model" and becomes much, much worse when the experiment is repeated at several latitudes and compared.

Where's the data?

?

trig

  • 2240
  • +0/-0
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2009, 06:54:03 PM »
Eratosthenes experiment can be interpretted two ways.  Draw out that triangle and solve it the other way.
The answer is 800/(Sin(7.5))=6129 km, or 3809 miles.

This answer is already more than 800 miles farther away than predicted by the FE "model" and becomes much, much worse when the experiment is repeated at several latitudes and compared.
Show me the data.
All the data is in the OP. One of the sides of the triangle is a vertical (the side from Sienne to the Sun). One of the sides is horizontal (Sienne to Alexandria). The other side is 7.5 degrees from the vertical. That is as simple as a triangle can get.

And if you mean the different latitudes, for every latitude you can move North 60 NM and the Sun will be one degree further South. That is a fact that has been fundamental to navigators since the fifteenth century, at least. There you have countless observations of triangles similar to Eratosthenes', so you cannot say Eratosthenes was in the conspiracy.

Just to do something that you would never do, lets do another example: it is well known that at noon, during the Equinox, if you are at a latitude of 20? North you will see the Sun at an altitude of 70? and if you see it from a latitude of 21? you will see it at an altitude of 69?. Then you have a triangle with all the angles known (assuming a flat Earth) and one known side. From there it is simple trigonometry to find that the height of the Sun will be:

h=sin(70)/((sin(70)/sin(69))-1) x 69.06 miles = 9912 miles high

You can get any result from tens of thousands of miles high to a few miles high, depending on the latitude you make your measurements. And all of this is produced from the simple fact that the altitude of the sun is 90 minus the latitude you are on, at noon during the Equinox and the fact that the Sun moves 1 degree South on the sky for every 60 NM you move North.

Here you have the calculations for every 5 degree latitude increment. You can see that the last column (the height of the Sun) goes essentially from infinity to zero, so saying the sun hovers at a specific height is impossible.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 07:03:48 PM by trig »

*

Username

  • President of The Flat Earth Society
  • Administrator
  • 18223
  • +41/-77
  • Most Accurate Scientist Ever
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2009, 10:20:18 PM »
Eratosthenes experiment can be interpretted two ways.  Draw out that triangle and solve it the other way.
The answer is 800/(Sin(7.5))=6129 km, or 3809 miles.

This answer is already more than 800 miles farther away than predicted by the FE "model" and becomes much, much worse when the experiment is repeated at several latitudes and compared.
Show me the data.
All the data is in the OP. One of the sides of the triangle is a vertical (the side from Sienne to the Sun). One of the sides is horizontal (Sienne to Alexandria). The other side is 7.5 degrees from the vertical. That is as simple as a triangle can get.

And if you mean the different latitudes, for every latitude you can move North 60 NM and the Sun will be one degree further South. That is a fact that has been fundamental to navigators since the fifteenth century, at least. There you have countless observations of triangles similar to Eratosthenes', so you cannot say Eratosthenes was in the conspiracy.

Just to do something that you would never do, lets do another example: it is well known that at noon, during the Equinox, if you are at a latitude of 20? North you will see the Sun at an altitude of 70? and if you see it from a latitude of 21? you will see it at an altitude of 69?. Then you have a triangle with all the angles known (assuming a flat Earth) and one known side. From there it is simple trigonometry to find that the height of the Sun will be:

h=sin(70)/((sin(70)/sin(69))-1) x 69.06 miles = 9912 miles high

You can get any result from tens of thousands of miles high to a few miles high, depending on the latitude you make your measurements. And all of this is produced from the simple fact that the altitude of the sun is 90 minus the latitude you are on, at noon during the Equinox and the fact that the Sun moves 1 degree South on the sky for every 60 NM you move North.

Here you have the calculations for every 5 degree latitude increment. You can see that the last column (the height of the Sun) goes essentially from infinity to zero, so saying the sun hovers at a specific height is impossible.

I didn't ask for the formula of their model. 

I asked for the data supporting it.  Where are the experiments that verify all these different areas tests?
If you can't argue both bofth sides, you understand unjderstand neiher

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • 45091
  • +87/-122
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2009, 10:48:51 PM »
I didn't ask for the formula of their model. 

I asked for the data supporting it.  Where are the experiments that verify all these different areas tests?

You had claimed that the Eratosthenes experiment could be used to calculate the distance to the sun.  Where is the peer review that supports this claim?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 18033
  • +6/-9
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2009, 11:48:20 PM »
Quote from: John Davis
I asked for the data supporting it.  Where are the experiments that verify all these different areas tests?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 11:51:28 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 18033
  • +6/-9
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2009, 11:51:11 PM »
I didn't ask for the formula of their model. 

I asked for the data supporting it.  Where are the experiments that verify all these different areas tests?

You had claimed that the Eratosthenes experiment could be used to calculate the distance to the sun.  Where is the peer review that supports this claim?

http://www.millersville.edu/~physics/exp.of.the.month/58/

Scroll all the way to the bottom to the "Alternate Model" section.

?

trig

  • 2240
  • +0/-0
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2009, 12:25:44 AM »

http://www.millersville.edu/~physics/exp.of.the.month/58/

Scroll all the way to the bottom to the "Alternate Model" section.
Sorry, but the "404 Page Not Found" does not seem to be a valid experiment. Did you even follow your own link, or is your trolling finally hitting rock bottom?

Edit: Maybe, if you did your lurking right, you would have found that the link you wanted is: http://www.millersville.edu/physics/experiments/058/index.php and you would have read the last line on the page: "We conclude that the flat earth/near sun model does not work."
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 12:33:11 AM by trig »

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 18033
  • +6/-9
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2009, 12:52:48 AM »
Quote
Sorry, but the "404 Page Not Found" does not seem to be a valid experiment. Did you even follow your own link, or is your trolling finally hitting rock bottom?

They link has changed since the last time I used it. Please remain civil on these forums. I have reported your post to the moderators.


http://www.millersville.edu/~physics/exp.of.the.month/58/

Scroll all the way to the bottom to the "Alternate Model" section.
Sorry, but the "404 Page Not Found" does not seem to be a valid experiment. Did you even follow your own link, or is your trolling finally hitting rock bottom?

Edit: Maybe, if you did your lurking right, you would have found that the link you wanted is: http://www.millersville.edu/physics/experiments/058/index.php and you would have read the last line on the page: "We conclude that the flat earth/near sun model does not work."

That sentence at the end is not referring to the height of the sun. It's speaking about the diameter of the sun at its setting. Apparently the author does not own a copy of "Earth Not A Globe" by Samuel Birley Rowbotham.

The face remains that Earatosthenes' experiment can be interpreted under a Flat Earth model to calculate a close sun.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 12:59:06 AM by Tom Bishop »

?

trig

  • 2240
  • +0/-0
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2009, 01:37:54 AM »

I didn't ask for the formula of their model. 

I asked for the data supporting it.  Where are the experiments that verify all these different areas tests?
Please read carefully: the data you need is the fact used by every navigator on land and sea for more than 500 years. You have to insult the entire portion of the civilization that has navigated anywhere in order to sustain your illusion that you have found something that has eluded all others. Maybe you have navigated to some destination other than the supermarket, and you have found for yourself that the navigation methods used since the invention of the sextant are dramatically wrong?

For years now I have suggested several simple and inexpensive experiments involving navigation that anyone can do for himself, away from the watching eye of the Conspiracy, and you have not even tried any of them. Maybe you have done your own, but you have not told us?

In the end, the few real FE theorists have to insult everyone who has lived in the southern hemisphere, or has navigated any kind of vehicle, or has bought a telescope and uses it, or has followed the space exploration, or ... the list goes on ... to keep alive the ideas they have not left their couches to test.

?

trig

  • 2240
  • +0/-0
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2009, 01:38:43 AM »

I didn't ask for the formula of their model. 

I asked for the data supporting it.  Where are the experiments that verify all these different areas tests?
Please read carefully: the data you need is the fact used by every navigator on land and sea for more than 500 years. You have to insult the entire portion of the civilization that has navigated anywhere in order to sustain your illusion that you have found something that has eluded all others. Maybe you have navigated to some destination other than the supermarket, and you have found for yourself that the navigation methods used since the invention of the sextant are dramatically wrong?

For years now I have suggested several simple and inexpensive experiments involving navigation that anyone can do for himself, away from the watching eye of the Conspiracy, and you have not even tried any of them. Maybe you have done your own, but you have not told us?

In the end, the few real FE theorists have to insult everyone who has lived in the southern hemisphere, or has navigated any kind of vehicle, or has bought a telescope and uses it, or has followed the space exploration, or ... the list goes on ... to keep alive the ideas they have not left their couches to test.

?

Crustinator

  • 7783
  • +0/-0
  • Bamhammer horror!
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2009, 03:27:14 AM »
Where's the data?

You already have all the data you need. Positions of the sun and distances between geographic locations are incredibly well documented.

The face remains that Earatosthenes' experiment can be interpreted under a Flat Earth model to calculate a close sun.

No it can't. If it could they would have put that clause in their conclusion. The apparent size of the sun does not change. I suggest you read your sources more closely in future.

And as has already been pointed out the flat earth distance to the sun will vary depending on the locations used.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • 45091
  • +87/-122
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2009, 06:43:01 AM »
I didn't ask for the formula of their model. 

I asked for the data supporting it.  Where are the experiments that verify all these different areas tests?

You had claimed that the Eratosthenes experiment could be used to calculate the distance to the sun.  Where is the peer review that supports this claim?

http://www.millersville.edu/~physics/exp.of.the.month/58/

Scroll all the way to the bottom to the "Alternate Model" section.

I remember that experiment.  Their results were different from the accepted value of 3000 miles.  Thanks for proving my point, Tom.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

trig

  • 2240
  • +0/-0
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2009, 07:54:07 AM »

That sentence at the end is not referring to the height of the sun. It's speaking about the diameter of the sun at its setting. Apparently the author does not own a copy of "Earth Not A Globe" by Samuel Birley Rowbotham.

The face remains that Earatosthenes' experiment can be interpreted under a Flat Earth model to calculate a close sun.
In science you do not get to choose which part of an experiment you declare correct and which you declare wrong.

If you like you can argue that the whole experiment is faulty because the subject of the sun's apparent size was introduced in the conclusions, or you can accept the whole experiment since the subject of the sun's apparent size is so evident that only Rowbotham and you disagree.

One of the best signs of a bad scientist is that he/she tweaks the results into what is convenient for him/her. Most of those failings you find in science, like the Piltdown Man incident, come from this kind of faulty scientific reasoning (starting from the intended conclusion and tweaking the results into it).

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 18033
  • +6/-9
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2009, 10:28:32 AM »
You already have all the data you need. Positions of the sun and distances between geographic locations are incredibly well documented.

Where are the documents?

Quote
No it can't. If it could they would have put that clause in their conclusion. The apparent size of the sun does not change. I suggest you read your sources more closely in future.

And as has already been pointed out the flat earth distance to the sun will vary depending on the locations used.

Where's the data from these observations?

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 18033
  • +6/-9
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2009, 10:30:58 AM »
Quote
In science you do not get to choose which part of an experiment you declare correct and which you declare wrong.

If you like you can argue that the whole experiment is faulty because the subject of the sun's apparent size was introduced in the conclusions, or you can accept the whole experiment since the subject of the sun's apparent size is so evident that only Rowbotham and you disagree.

If you read the article it's not declaring anything wrong. The results of Eratosthenes' experiment can simple be interpreted in two ways: On a globe and on a plane. The shape of the earth gives different results regarding the sun's height.

If you're saying that we can perform additional experiments which can contradict the Flat Earth model, the burden is on you to prove it.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • 45091
  • +87/-122
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2009, 11:39:47 AM »
If you read the article it's not declaring anything wrong. The results of Eratosthenes' experiment can simple be interpreted in two ways: On a globe and on a plane. The shape of the earth gives different results regarding the sun's height.

If you're saying that we can perform additional experiments which can contradict the Flat Earth model, the burden is on you to prove it.

Tom, of what possible use is performing additional experiments assuming a flat earth when those predictions are not consistent?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

trig

  • 2240
  • +0/-0
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2009, 12:32:19 PM »

If you read the article it's not declaring anything wrong.
Quote
That is, as we move from Florida to Pennsylvania, our distance from the sun increases by about 30%. As a consequence the apparent size of the sun should decrease by 30%. We see no noticeable change in the apparent size of the sun as we make the trip. We conclude that the flat earth/near sun model does not work.
This is quite illustrative. The article is not declaring anything wrong, and the article is unambiguously declaring FE dead. And yet, Tom Bishop is declaring this a victory.

It is just like Napoleon, who left his entire army dying and rotting in Acre and went back to France to declare total victory, Tom Bishop is trying to do the same: repeat so many times that he won, that people might start to believe it.

?

Thermal Detonator

  • 3125
  • +0/-0
  • Definitively the best avatar maker.
Re: Egyptians "believed" RET
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2009, 01:16:07 PM »

If you read the article it's not declaring anything wrong.
Quote
That is, as we move from Florida to Pennsylvania, our distance from the sun increases by about 30%. As a consequence the apparent size of the sun should decrease by 30%. We see no noticeable change in the apparent size of the sun as we make the trip. We conclude that the flat earth/near sun model does not work.
This is quite illustrative. The article is not declaring anything wrong, and the article is unambiguously declaring FE dead. And yet, Tom Bishop is declaring this a victory.

It is just like Napoleon, who left his entire army dying and rotting in Acre and went back to France to declare total victory, Tom Bishop is trying to do the same: repeat so many times that he won, that people might start to believe it.

This is about the fourth time in a month that Bishop has resorted to this kind of head in the sand denial. The funniest was his claim that nobody has seen satellites.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.