Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« on: July 17, 2006, 03:11:49 PM »
Well a mod just locked the lst thread claiming that it explained all this in the faq when it actually didnt, so ill include what the faq said this time, for those of you who arent sure what it says

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Q: "Isn't this version of gravity (A1) flawed? Wouldn't planes/helicopters/paragliders crash into the Earth as the Earth rises up to them?"

A: No. If that were to happen, then no planes could fly right now as gravity would pull them into the Earth. The reason that planes do not crash is that their wings produce an upthrust which, when the rate of acceleration upwards equals that of gravity's pull downwards, and so their altititude does not change.  
The answer here clearly explains what happens on a round erath not a flat earth, which was clearly explained in my post:

 so if gravity isnt really gravity but just the eartch accelerating, then flying airplanes would be impossible, because the moment it takes off, the earth would simply accelerate into it.

On a round earth with gravity, all a plane has to do is lift off the planet and then it can just float on it as long as it can counterbalance gravity. If the earth didnt have gravity, but was simply accelerated upwards at 9.8m/s/s, then the only way an airplane can stay a float is if it can accelerate on its own at 9.8m/s/s, which is simply impossible for more than a few minutes.


So next time, do not lock threads untill youve provided a good argument, becuase if an accurate explanations to this was in the faq, i wouldnt be posting it.
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If you're planning on posting a message insulting us but don't want to bother with any thought or content, please do it in here.[/quote] Ah the Irony

Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2006, 03:13:44 PM »


This will probably just get locked again, you know....
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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2006, 03:15:33 PM »
Read on, jerkass...

Quote from: "The FAQ"
The same thing happens if the Earth is moving up. The plane is accelerating upwards at the same rate as the Earth, which means the distance between them does not change. Therefore, the plane stays at the same height and does not crash.

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Desu

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2006, 03:15:40 PM »
100% chance it will be locked.
Quote from: sam712
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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2006, 03:16:41 PM »
Quote from: "EnCrypto"
Read on, jerkass...

Quote from:  "The FAQ"
The same thing happens if the Earth is moving up. The plane is accelerating upwards at the same rate as the Earth, which means the distance between them does not change. Therefore, the plane stays at the same height and does not crash.
how about you read?
Quote
If the earth didnt have gravity, but was simply accelerated upwards at 9.8m/s/s, then the only way an airplane can stay a float is if it can accelerate on its own at 9.8m/s/s, which is simply impossible for more than a few minutes.
quote]Angry Ranting
If you're planning on posting a message insulting us but don't want to bother with any thought or content, please do it in here.[/quote] Ah the Irony

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6strings

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2006, 05:19:23 PM »
Ervin, my friend, I'm going to tell you something that will blow your mind:
Gravity causes acceleration.

No, it's true!  As such, acceleration is indistiguishable from gravity in our reference frame.  Nice try, but try not to pick something covered in the FAQ next time.

Oh, and subverting the mods' authority is a bad idea, fyi.

Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2006, 05:54:57 PM »
sure it does, downward, but if the initial acceleration is prevented, then you can easly fly. But if the earth itself accelerates, you have no control over it, and the rest i already explained.
quote]Angry Ranting
If you're planning on posting a message insulting us but don't want to bother with any thought or content, please do it in here.[/quote] Ah the Irony

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6strings

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2006, 05:59:20 PM »
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sure it does, downward, but if the initial acceleration is prevented, then you can easly fly. But if the earth itself accelerates, you have no control over it, and the rest i already explained.

You, my friend, are a fool: "the initial acceleration"?  There is no initial acceleration.  Are you under the impression that gravity tries once and then gives up?  That a bird merely has to flap its wing to get into the air, and, once there, can meander as it wishes?

I'd do little bit a reading before making claims with the certitude you do.

Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2006, 06:04:36 PM »
i think youre the one that has to do the reading, of what other peiople say! I said:
Quote
On a round earth with gravity, all a plane has to do is lift off the planet and then it can just float on it as long as it can counterbalance gravity.
which means is long as an airplane can hold a thrust of 9.8m/s it can stay afloat. Holding a velocity of 9.8m/s is easy, but holding an acceleration of 9.8m/s/s is impossible for longer than several minutes (i havent done the math so maybe you can stay up for as long as half an hour, figure it out yourself if you want).
quote]Angry Ranting
If you're planning on posting a message insulting us but don't want to bother with any thought or content, please do it in here.[/quote] Ah the Irony

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6strings

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2006, 06:12:09 PM »
I don't care what you wrote, because your ideas are ridiculously flawed.

Also, please note that I did not say that gravity causes velocity.  I said acceleration, which means that the plane must do the exact same thing on a round earth with gravity to fly as it would on a Flat Earth that is accelerating.

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TheEngineer

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2006, 06:46:48 PM »
Quote from: "Ervin"
which means is long as an airplane can hold a thrust of 9.8m/s it can stay afloat. Holding a velocity of 9.8m/s is easy, but holding an acceleration of 9.8m/s/s is impossible for longer than several minutes (i havent done the math so maybe you can stay up for as long as half an hour, figure it out yourself if you want).

The airplane is not holding a velocity 9.8m/s, but is holding a constant acceleration of 9.81m/s^2 upwards.  An airplane maintaining a velocity of 9.8m/s would never get off the ground.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2006, 07:02:51 PM »
yes it would, the gravity of earth wouldnt increase just because youre in mid air, it stays the same at all times. but an accelerated earth is totally different than an earth that pulls on you by gravity, instead of pulling, it slams in to you. The pull never increases, but the velocity does if earth would be accelerated.


but anyway, you can try to disprove REs all you want, but as long as you dont provide proof yourself, and make up ridiculous and ignorant ideas like the earth is the center of the universe and is being held up by elephants, you might as well crawl into a corner and cry. Im pretty much done here, if youre going to be ignorantall the time, I mightaswell be too for once.
quote]Angry Ranting
If you're planning on posting a message insulting us but don't want to bother with any thought or content, please do it in here.[/quote] Ah the Irony

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TheEngineer

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2006, 09:58:25 PM »
Quote from: "Ervin"
yes it would, the gravity of earth wouldnt increase just because youre in mid air, it stays the same at all times. but an accelerated earth is totally different than an earth that pulls on you by gravity, instead of pulling, it slams in to you. The pull never increases, but the velocity does if earth would be accelerated.

An aircraft in the RE maintains a constant upward force in order to maintain level flight.  If it did not, the equations of equilibrium would be off and the aircraft would climb or decend, depending on the situation.  An aircraft flying at a constant velocity of 9.8m/s is doing 22 mph.   Most aircraft can't get off the ground at this velocity.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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joffenz

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2006, 04:12:49 AM »
Quote from: "Ervin"
yes it would, the gravity of earth wouldnt increase just because youre in mid air, it stays the same at all times. but an accelerated earth is totally different than an earth that pulls on you by gravity, instead of pulling, it slams in to you. The pull never increases, but the velocity does if earth would be accelerated.


So why is jumping out of a plane at 3000 feet more dangerous than jumping out of a plane at 30 feet? According to you, in both circumstances you will be going at the same speed, 9.8m/s.

Here is what actually happens:

Round-Earth: Plane accelerates up + gravity accelerates down = distance between Earth and plane remains constant.

Flat-Earth: Plane accelerates up + earth accelerates up = distance between Earth and plane remains constant.

Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2006, 04:22:25 AM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"
So why is jumping out of a plane at 3000 feet more dangerous than jumping out of a plane at 30 feet? According to you, in both circumstances you will be going at the same speed, 9.8m/s.


nope. you accelerate at 9.8m/s^2.

(at ground level anyway - it will be marginally less at aircraft altitude - gravity follows a 1/r^2 pattern))
tf?

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joffenz

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2006, 04:25:21 AM »
Quote from: "Ezkerraldean"
nope. you accelerate at 9.8m/s^2.

(at ground level anyway - it will be marginally less at aircraft altitude - gravity follows a 1/r^2 pattern))


I know, I was showing Ervin why his version of gravity was flawed.

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TheEngineer

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2006, 07:46:49 AM »
Quote from: "Ezkerraldean"

nope. you accelerate at 9.8m/s^2.

(at ground level anyway - it will be marginally less at aircraft altitude - gravity follows a 1/r^2 pattern))

Way to pay attention to the discussion, champ.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2006, 09:07:40 AM »
flying has to do more with air pressure then gravity TBH.

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Erasmus

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2006, 09:44:01 AM »
Quote from: "troubadour"
flying has to do more with air pressure then gravity TBH.


Er... not really.  Flying at a constant altitude has exactly as much to do with gravity as it has to do with air pressure -- since for that to occur, aerodynamic lift must be equal and opposite to gravity.

Similarly for ascending and descending.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Ubuntu

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2006, 10:10:23 AM »
So if the plane (and all objects) are accelerating at the same rate as the Earth how come we get sucked (*shlurp*) into the Earth when we try to jump away? The Earth would have to be accelerating faster than us.


"
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Angry Ranting
If you're planning on posting a message insulting us but don't want to bother with any thought or content, please do it in here.

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Heh, that is very ironic.

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Erasmus

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2006, 10:36:22 AM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
So if the plane (and all objects) are accelerating at the same rate as the Earth how come we get sucked (*shlurp*) into the Earth when we try to jump away? The Earth would have to be accelerating faster than us.


Once you jump up in the air, the Earth is no longer pushing you, so you stop accelerating, and so the Earth is indeed accelerating at a greater (nonzero) rate than you (zero) are.  The Earth is pushing the air, which is why when you fall you feel air rushing past you.  However, the human body is sufficiently aerodynamic that the air rushing past you does not generate any lift.

On an airplane, hangglider, or parachute, however, it can be arranged so that the air rushing past the airfoil does generate lift.  In the first two cases, this is accomplished by moving the airfoil laterally through the air.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Ubuntu

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2006, 11:42:59 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
So if the plane (and all objects) are accelerating at the same rate as the Earth how come we get sucked (*shlurp*) into the Earth when we try to jump away? The Earth would have to be accelerating faster than us.


Once you jump up in the air, the Earth is no longer pushing you, so you stop accelerating, and so the Earth is indeed accelerating at a greater (nonzero) rate than you (zero) are.  The Earth is pushing the air, which is why when you fall you feel air rushing past you.  However, the human body is sufficiently aerodynamic that the air rushing past you does not generate any lift.

On an airplane, hangglider, or parachute, however, it can be arranged so that the air rushing past the airfoil does generate lift.  In the first two cases, this is accomplished by moving the airfoil laterally through the air.


However, that does not support (or disprove) the Flat Earth theory in any way...

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Erasmus

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2006, 11:54:46 AM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
However, that does not support (or disprove) the Flat Earth theory in any way...


No, it doesn't.  It merely invalidates a certain overused and meritless refutation of the FE theory.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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Ubuntu

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Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2006, 01:32:48 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
However, that does not support (or disprove) the Flat Earth theory in any way...


No, it doesn't.  It merely invalidates a certain overused and meritless refutation of the FE theory.


If only the idea weren't science fiction...

Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2006, 01:43:14 PM »
Quote from: "Ervin"

Holding a velocity of 9.8m/s is easy, but holding an acceleration of 9.8m/s/s is impossible for longer than several minutes (i havent done the math so maybe you can stay up for as long as half an hour, figure it out yourself if you want).


LOL  :roll:

Some people are just too dumb...  If you're taking remedial physics in highschool over the summer, please don't try and argue anything here, it's beyond you.  Seems you need to do more than just 'the math' on this one and learn what displacement, velocity, and acceleration in inertial frames of reference mean, and how they're related.  

Needing to hold this 'velocity of 9.8m/s' to be in the air sure makes hovering impossible...   :twisted:

Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2006, 07:34:32 PM »
Good job adding nothing to the conversation, they have angry ranting for that kind of comment
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Advocatus Diaboli

Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2006, 11:29:32 AM »
Same right back at you guy?  8-)

Anyway, I've been reading the forums and this has to be LITERALLY the millionth time some doesn't understand what acceleration means.  Plus, I did point out that if something has to maintain a velocity of 9.8m/s in order to fly, then hovering is impossible, so I've added more than you already.

Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2006, 02:46:40 PM »
Well, you in fact took away considering to hover you would need to hold 9.8m/s^2, exactly, not 9.8 m/s.

You need to have an acceleration greater than 9.8m/s^2 to achieve lift, exactly 9.8/s^2 to hover, and if you have less than 9.8m/s^2 you are falling
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Advocatus Diaboli

Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2006, 11:25:10 AM »
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
Well, you in fact took away considering to hover you would need to hold 9.8m/s^2, exactly, not 9.8 m/s.

You need to have an acceleration greater than 9.8m/s^2 to achieve lift, exactly 9.8/s^2 to hover, and if you have less than 9.8m/s^2 you are falling


Re-read what I wrote and why I mention v of 9.8m/s

Airplanes cannot fly on an accelerated earth
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2006, 11:57:22 AM »
this proves neither side of the argument - relativity shows you cannot distinguish between acceleration and gravity - flat earth or round earth.
lat earth - almost, but not quite, certain