Islam

  • 115 Replies
  • 22985 Views
Islam
« on: July 15, 2006, 10:32:29 AM »
The more I read the Qu'ran, the more I am convinced that those who live by it will be a constant threat to anyone who does not practice Islam.

While other monotheistic religions leave divine punishment up to their diety, the Qu'ran preaches of literally striking terror into the unbelievers (3:151).  Constantly I am told that I cannot have this viewpoint because it makes me a hypocrit in that I am not also condemning other religions.  I have to therefore ask:  "What good can come out of a religion in which the punishment for breaking the divine rulings is carried out by the people?"

This is not a radical view of Islam either!  This is what is presented.  It goes into great detail of how to treat your neighbor with peace and justice, but you then learn that your neighbor is someone who worships Allah.

I do not mean to offend any who practice this religion.  This is not my intention.  I wish to understand this religion more.

"And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." (17.16)
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Islam
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2006, 11:47:07 AM »
There are many similar verses in the Bible, too. Of course, if you follow just the teachings of Christ alone and avoid the rest, you won't come into that problem, but how many times in the old testement did God command an all-out slaughter of men, women and children of the opposition?
An eye for an eye is what we base the death penalty on. How is that different?

Any religion that calls for the destruction or punishment of another is fundamentally flawed, as religion deals with the afterlife and the conasequences of one's actions during this life. We should all be responsible for our own actions. The most striking example of this is how women are told to stay modest to avoid tempting men.

As a women, I can freely admit that I am as subject sexual temptation as any man I've ever met. Ahem.
'm not a flat earther. I just play one on TV.

?

joffenz

  • The Elder Ones
  • 1272
Re: Islam
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2006, 11:50:51 AM »
Quote from: "Mephistopheles"
While other monotheistic religions leave divine punishment up to their diety, the Qu'ran preaches of literally striking terror into the unbelievers (3:151)...  

"And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." (17.16)


"Do not think that I have come to send peace on Earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Mathew 10:34-35).

If you're going to take verses out of context, Christianity is just as guilty as Islam.

However if you care to look at the context, you'll see that Mohammed was  given those verses while he was being attacked by non-Muslims, so Allah was effectively giving him permission to defend his people.

"Do not take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for a just cause"...

". . Do not take life, which Allah has made sacred, except through justice and the law. He orders this so that you may acquire wisdom"

That said, you may be interested in this: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

*edit* Also Jitterbug, where do you live?

Islam
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2006, 12:06:19 PM »
In my opinion, the original sunni islam caliphs were more jewish influenced and anti-Christian than the relatively moderate Shiite caliphs of the Abbasid dynasty that followed which were more international oriented and took power as a reaction to the barbaric exceses of the first sunni muslim dynasty.  Thanks to the shiites of the Abbasid dynasty, islam stopped expanding when they took power.  

  As far as Mohmammed, his mentor was a nestorian monk named Boheira from the city of Bosrah in southern Syria.  Boheira is the one who decided that Mohammed (who was a boy when he first met Boheira) was to be the founder of a new religion.  This is why the islamic view of Christ is like that of the nestorians who believe that Christ was Man and not God.  The muslims copy this blasphemy in that they also believe Jesus Christ was only a Man and state He was nothing more than a Prophet.

  Still, I believe (religion aside), the politics of the modern west is far more racist and transparently colonialist and zionist (pro-israeli) than the politics of modern islam.  

  I have long believed that the islamic heresy is so different from Orthodox Christian doctrine that it is not a corrupter of Orthodoxy to the extent that more subtle heresies from the west are like roman catholicism or the modern ecumenical movement.  The popes endorsed the crusades and spanish, portuguese, french, and italian colonialism including their slave trading.  The pope gave his endorsement to the italian invasion of Ethiopia in 1935 and wanted to colonize the entire Mediterranean in WWII with fascist roman catholic armies (including Greece and the muslim countries), yet muslim lands have been on a continual retreat to an intrusive western advance for well over two centuries.  I do not see islam as a political threat at all.  

  Rather, I believe the old Greek proverb invoked by the Byzantine Emperor when he let Constantinople fall to the Turks rather than let it be in the hands of roman catholics:

  'It is better to reside under the crescent of islam than to be under the tiara of the pope.'

  This applies equally to the modern west in general.

- Dionysios

Re: Islam
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2006, 01:03:42 PM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"


*edit* Also Jitterbug, where do you live?



I live in Oregon now... you know California's Canada. Not native, though. Why? Are you planning on stalking me? ;)
'm not a flat earther. I just play one on TV.

Re: Islam
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2006, 03:02:42 PM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"
Quote from: "Mephistopheles"
While other monotheistic religions leave divine punishment up to their diety, the Qu'ran preaches of literally striking terror into the unbelievers (3:151)...  

"And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." (17.16)


"Do not think that I have come to send peace on Earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Mathew 10:34-35).

If you're going to take verses out of context, Christianity is just as guilty as Islam.

However if you care to look at the context, you'll see that Mohammed was  given those verses while he was being attacked by non-Muslims, so Allah was effectively giving him permission to defend his people.

"Do not take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for a just cause"...

". . Do not take life, which Allah has made sacred, except through justice and the law. He orders this so that you may acquire wisdom"

That said, you may be interested in this: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

*edit* Also Jitterbug, where do you live?


I disagree wholeheartedly.

It does not matter what verses you take out of context of the teachings of Judaism or Christianity; divine punishment and judgement is left up for God.  This is a fundamental difference between these religions; punishment of the heretics, of the disbelievers is done by "We" and not God.

Christianity and Judaism both have their brutal parts, but matters of divine weight are not left up to man.  They each recognize the fallacy of man and its inability to conceive the consequences of such actions of weight.

Quote from: "Dionysios"
I have long believed that the islamic heresy is so different from Orthodox Christian doctrine that it is not a corrupter of Orthodoxy to the extent that more subtle heresies from the west are like roman catholicism or the modern ecumenical movement.


I can agree on this to an extent.

Quote from: "Dionysios"
The popes endorsed the crusades and spanish, portuguese, french, and italian colonialism including their slave trading. The pope gave his endorsement to the italian invasion of Ethiopia in 1935 and wanted to colonize the entire Mediterranean in WWII with fascist roman catholic armies (including Greece and the muslim countries), yet muslim lands have been on a continual retreat to an intrusive western advance for well over two centuries.


In these cases, religion is twisted by a figurehead.  I used to think Islam was the same, but I now know that Islam does not have to be twisted in any way for something such as a Jihad to be a reasonable action for its practitioners.  Again, Qu'ran refers to the delivering of punishment to be done by "We" and not Allah.  This effectively gives humans the unnatural power of divine judgement which of itself is more dangerous than a corrupt figurehead.  For all we know, due to the odd structure of the Qu'ran (Muhammad goes from describing the balance of goodness and justice, the structures of heaven and Earth to verses of war and cleansing the unbelievers) Muhammad could have very well been inspired by demons if you believe such.  This was after he became a general and took up the sword to war.  Of course, this may mean little to others since I cannot very well say that other religions would not, by the same terms, be able to be immune from the deceit of the devil.  You can curse me for a fruitless generalization in which case.

Another thing is that the Qu'ran, the basis of the religion, has remained just that:  the practice of Islam remains similar to its original form and has not been ever taken to scrutiny and intense interpretation as the other religions of today have been.  There have been major reformations of Christianity (which is, of course, how we got to a refined form of Orthodox Christian doctrine, and conversely the, in my opinion, corrupt form of Western Protestantism), and the same can be said of other traditions held up for modern questions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism to an extent.  Though they have largely remained the same, they still were able to scrutinze the teachings they were given and able to return to the context of how the word was written and disreguard things that cannot be understood in its prior context or due to the non-existant social moores and norms of that time period.

I claim that Islam in its current state of the Middle-East has been under no or very little of such scrutiny in which the word can be properly translated into our modern perspectives.  I say this because there is no modern perspective in the practice of that form of Islam; anything related to modernization (and thus, ease/comfort in life) is condemned.  The context of what the Earth is like is shown as a miserable place; a place closer to Hell than Heaven.  Yet I speak exclusively of Islam practiced in that area of the world; in countries such as Turkey, America, and parts of Europe, Islam is making certain headway.  Yet I still do not know enough about how much headway and it would be appreciated if someone with a more practical knowledge of Islam could do the favors and explain how the religion translates into our time period.

Quote from: "Dionysios"
I do not see islam as a political threat at all.


It is not a political threat.  It is a threat for those who do not believe in Islam.  While Jesus of the Bible preached of tolerance towards the Gentiles, Muhammad literally exclaims that they will strike terror into the hearts of unbelievers.  In a religion in which divine punishment falls to the hands of the corruptable humans, I very much so believe that this is a problem.  In Western Christianity, it may seem like it is coming towards that; I believe that is what you're referring to.  Whether or not certain groups would advocate "religious superiority", that is twisting the words of the Bible and the teachings of Jesus (which I suspect you take more heart of than the other passages?).  They are dangerous as well, but thankfully they can easily be passed off as radical due to the blunt nature of the "Ten Commandments" which usually belong to the cornerstone of worship in most Christians (even if they were twisted by the Popes to call war).

Even now, Christian leaders are against war and speak very loudly in opposition to it.  The "Christian Warmongers" are a minority in actuality and have only been popularized thanks to mass media and the propaganda machines in the West, now unfortunately spreading to Europe.  "Christian Warmongers" can be every bit as dangerous as Islam, but the fundamental difference is that the cornerstone of each religion is vastly different:  the bible requires tolerance and peace (whether or not certain passages suggest otherwise in context) while the Qu'ran demands acceptance though rewarding those who accept its teachings with peace.  This thinking is dangerous and inhabits many more minds than it is admitted.

I would also like to point out that though I say such things, anything I don't say cannot be interpreted as a disagreement.  For example, I do not disagree that the Western interpretation of Christianity can be fundamentally flawed.  What I am doing by pointing this out is going somewhere where many people fear to tread.  Many people fear to question the Qu'ran because they feel that it would be hypocritical and, of course, "politically incorrect" (the bastardization of modern society).  I question it because those who would condemn Islam do not know anything about it.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Islam
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2006, 11:05:02 PM »
Quote from: "jitterbug"
There are many similar verses in the Bible, too. Of course, if you follow just the teachings of Christ alone and avoid the rest, you won't come into that problem, but how many times in the old testement did God command an all-out slaughter of men, women and children of the opposition?


At the risk of sounding like I'm in defense of the Bible, in the old testament the only times God commanded an all-out slaughter of men, women and children was when the Hebrews wanted to take somebody's land, not merely because those people were sinners.  They were not being asked to carry out Jehovah's punishment -- when Jehovah wants to punish a town, we all know that he does it himself.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

?

joffenz

  • The Elder Ones
  • 1272
Re: Islam
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2006, 03:21:05 AM »
Quote from: "Mephistopheles"

I disagree wholeheartedly.

It does not matter what verses you take out of context of the teachings of Judaism or Christianity; divine punishment and judgement is left up for God.  This is a fundamental difference between these religions; punishment of the heretics, of the disbelievers is done by "We" and not God.

Christianity and Judaism both have their brutal parts, but matters of divine weight are not left up to man.  They each recognize the fallacy of man and its inability to conceive the consequences of such actions of weight.


Where does the Qu'ran talk about divine punishment being given out by man? All it says is that they would strike fear into the heart of the unbelievers. It's talking about warfare, not divine punishment.

Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam.   Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them).  (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)

Re: Islam
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2006, 08:34:10 AM »
Quote from: "cheesejoff"
Where does the Qu'ran talk about divine punishment being given out by man? All it says is that they would strike fear into the heart of the unbelievers. It's talking about warfare, not divine punishment.

Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam.   Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them).  (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)


Judging "sinners" and carrying out punishment thusly is divine punishment.

They do not have to depend on their God to judge man and carry out punishment or salvation.  The consequences of their actions are determined by the term "We" and not "Him" or "Allah".
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Islam
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2006, 09:41:30 AM »
Mephistopheles,

  What is your opinion of the following article?  (I already know what people like Erasmus, cheesejof, and jitterbug will think of it.)

  Unlike the hate rhetoric of the Bush administration, I consider this true story a legitimate and verifiable expose of both the Syrian mafia as well as Al Jazeera's efforts to cover the truth.  In fact, I will go to Syria myself in order to further verify this next week.  If Al Jazeera had not prevented the further spread of this story, the islamic religion in Syria would genuinely be on the decline:
http://www.pigizois.gr/agglika/the_miracle_in_siria.htm

  The following gives additional details:
http://www.pigizois.gr/agglika/the_miracle_in_siria.htm

- Dionysios

Islam
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2006, 10:22:33 AM »
Quote from: "Dionysios"
Mephistopheles,

  What is your opinion of the following article?  (I already know what people like Erasmus, cheesejof, and jitterbug will think of it.)

  Unlike the hate rhetoric of the Bush administration, I consider this true story a legitimate and verifiable expose of both the Syrian mafia as well as Al Jazeera's efforts to cover the truth.  In fact, I will go to Syria myself in order to further verify this next week.  If Al Jazeera had not prevented the further spread of this story, the islamic religion in Syria would genuinely be on the decline:
http://www.pigizois.gr/agglika/the_miracle_in_siria.htm

  The following gives additional details:
http://www.pigizois.gr/agglika/the_miracle_in_siria.htm

- Dionysios


My goodness.

I look forward to your information reguarding this when you get to Syria.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Islam
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2006, 12:53:51 PM »
you're religious bigots aswell, now?
tf?

Islam
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2006, 01:04:03 PM »
No, but I'm rather open-minded.

If nothing else, its an interesting story.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Islam
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2006, 09:13:45 AM »
I thought religion taught morals. how to treat your common man. Love thy neighbor...

thou shalt not kill.

how ANYONE can interpret killing in the name of their god is just laughable. and ironically more people have died in the name of God/Allah then any other reason i can think of.

thou shalt not kill...   HA!
verybody knows you can conjure anything by the dark of the Moon. - Tori Amos

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Islam
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2006, 09:43:07 AM »
Quote from: "Feralkitten"
I thought religion taught morals. how to treat your common man. Love thy neighbor...

thou shalt not kill.


That's a pretty naive viewpoint.  Several religions permit their adherents to defend themselves with lethal violence, and the history of one that I can think of involves the god's explicit instructions to kill others.

It's pretty clear that the interpersonal commandments in the Ten Commandments (such as Thou Shalt Not Kill) are only to be applied to other members of one's own tribe, where often tribe and religion are indistinguishable groupings.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Islam
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2006, 10:05:09 AM »
so it is ok to kill this guy over here, but it is not ok to kill this guy over here.

i do agree that you should have the right to defend yourself. if someone invaded my home i would defend myself, and i can see this on a larger scale. if someone invaded my country it should also be defended.

but killing someone because they have a different belief than you... Poor Play.

btw i understand that i boiled down my statements to a naive stance. I did however go to a private christian school for elementary and high school education. my father is a deacon of the church. i know more about the bible than the most of the Christians that surround me in this rural town. in the future i will try to sound less naive.
verybody knows you can conjure anything by the dark of the Moon. - Tori Amos

Islam
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2006, 10:08:44 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "Feralkitten"
I thought religion taught morals. how to treat your common man. Love thy neighbor...

thou shalt not kill.


That's a pretty naive viewpoint.  Several religions permit their adherents to defend themselves with lethal violence, and the history of one that I can think of involves the god's explicit instructions to kill others.

It's pretty clear that the interpersonal commandments in the Ten Commandments (such as Thou Shalt Not Kill) are only to be applied to other members of one's own tribe, where often tribe and religion are indistinguishable groupings.


I agree, however, the modern connotation of the "Ten Commandments" is much more blunt than how it was supposedly first recognized.  To me, it seems like it is simply "sold" this way because its easier to digest.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

?

Cinlef

  • The Elder Ones
  • 969
  • The Earth is a Sphere
Islam
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2006, 10:13:29 AM »
Quote from: "Feralkitten"

how ANYONE can interpret killing in the name of their god is just laughable. and ironically more people have died in the name of God/Allah then any other reason i can think of.

Really?
How many people have died in the name of COmmunism? Fascism? Nazism? Despoism? Or conversly how many have died in the name of such noble causes like democracy and freedom?

Human beings always have a excuse to kill others and their are many noble causes to sacrifice ones life for.

I dont know enought about Islam to say whether Mephistophles judgment is fair for certain.
However I suspect it is unfair. Looking at my own ROman Catholic faith I know that at many points during history it was used to justify abhorrent practices. (Inquisition Crusades ) which are directly opposed to its principles.It made compromises such as permitting the slave trade (based on the rationale it was better fr the people involved to be slaves and hear the Good News of Christ then live free and not which aare contrary to its own teachings on the dignity of man.

Thus I understand that how beleivers of a religion act and the central tenets of that religion foten differ considerably.

So I'm inclined to give Islam the benefit of the doubt.
Also DIonysiso just so we're clear you do relaize that the Catholic Church would regard your beliefs heretical right?
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

Islam
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2006, 10:19:42 AM »
Quote from: "Feralkitten"
so it is ok to kill this guy over here, but it is not ok to kill this guy over here.

i do agree that you should have the right to defend yourself. if someone invaded my home i would defend myself, and i can see this on a larger scale. if someone invaded my country it should also be defended.

but killing someone because they have a different belief than you... Poor Play.


I wouldn't call Islam "Poor Play", but in need of some serious religious scrutiny.  The main problems with Islam is that there is but one witness and prophet to Allah:  Muhammad.  There is no "leeway" when looking at the Qu'ran except in how things are translated.  Since Muhammad's words are the only words of Islam, it cannot be interpreted as variously as Christianity, leaving out the advancement of the religion.  Islam, basically, can never change because we have but one perspective of Allah and His teachings.  This forces a much more blunt interpretation of the Qu'ran since you don't have it coming from various people.

Though people can say all they want about the flaws of Christianity or "any religion", all of these religions have grown by religious scrutiny and change.  Islam cannot grow because it does not allow itself to grow.  This, of itself, makes it much more exploitable than even Christianity.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Islam
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2006, 10:35:20 AM »
Quote from: "Cinlef"
I dont know enought about Islam to say whether Mephistophles judgment is fair for certain.
However I suspect it is unfair. Looking at my own ROman Catholic faith I know that at many points during history it was used to justify abhorrent practices. (Inquisition Crusades ) which are directly opposed to its principles.It made compromises such as permitting the slave trade (based on the rationale it was better fr the people involved to be slaves and hear the Good News of Christ then live free and not which aare contrary to its own teachings on the dignity of man.


That's just the thing.  The points in history which showed the "abhorrent practices" of religions were made by people who twisted the religion for their own agenda.  In the case of the Inquisitions, they were employed by the Pope to secure the Church's power across Europe by labeling Muslims, Protestants, and Jews as heretics.  But, and this is a big but, the Inquisitions were not nearly as brutal as were originally thought.  I do agree that it was a dark time, and its system was the inspiration for Hitler's Holocaust, but this was not an action sanctioned by the Christian religion itself.  This was a gross interpretation of the Bible purely for power.  The Crusades were similar, but due to the nature of the goal (The Holy Land) it was not as bad as the Inquisitions.  Though it was war justified by "Holy Reasons", Jerusalem was an integral place in those three religions.  I daresay it would have happened reguardless of the religious leaders at the time or anything else.

Muhammad, however, literally taught that the unbelievers of Allah should be destroyed.  It didn't say that Allah would do this, it said "We".  "We" will do this, "We" will do that.  Though he had a brilliant theocracy set up in the Qu'ran, he uses neighbors quite often so I believe he is referring purely to the people of Allah.  There is little room for tolerance in the Qu'ran except in aiding the sick and impoverished.  There is no tolerance for those who lead an "easy life" (presumably outside of Islam), whom will be "utterly destroyed".  This is hardly a fair judgement, but I must also remind you that Muhammad was an established general.

What I believe is the reason for this context of the Qu'ran is the constant warfare and poverty of that time.  The problem is, since Muhammad's words are the only words of Islam, Islam has been frozen ever since in that time period.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Islam
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2006, 10:37:21 AM »
Quote
I wouldn't call Islam "Poor Play"


i didn't call out Islam on this. I said:
Quote
but killing someone because they have a different belief than you... Poor Play.


i.e.
i'm atheist; you are christian, therefore you must die.
i'm capitalist; you are feudalist, therefore you must die.
my favorite performer is Tori Amos; you listen to rap music, therefore you must die!!!

Poor Play on all these counts. i'm not picking on Islam. sorry for the confusion.
verybody knows you can conjure anything by the dark of the Moon. - Tori Amos

Islam
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2006, 10:44:02 AM »
Quote from: "Feralkitten"
Quote
I wouldn't call Islam "Poor Play"


i didn't call out Islam on this. I said:
Quote
but killing someone because they have a different belief than you... Poor Play.


i.e.
i'm atheist; you are christian, therefore you must die.
i'm capitalist; you are feudalist, therefore you must die.
my favorite performer is Tori Amos; you listen to rap music, therefore you must die!!!


That's basically a central message of the Qu'ran in a nutshell.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Islam
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2006, 10:47:34 AM »
Quote from: "Mephistopheles"


That's basically a central message of the Qu'ran in a nutshell.


i suggest you visit a mosque and enquire about that.
tf?

?

Cinlef

  • The Elder Ones
  • 969
  • The Earth is a Sphere
Islam
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2006, 10:49:21 AM »
I'mwilling to wager several 100 CND that Tori Amos is not mentioned in the Koran.
Clarity Mehpsitophles
Clarity
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

Islam
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2006, 10:51:02 AM »
Quote from: "Ezkerraldean"
Quote from: "Mephistopheles"


That's basically a central message of the Qu'ran in a nutshell.


i suggest you visit a mosque and inquite about that.


Perhaps I will.

But most likely not in front of everyone.  It could be considered an attack on Islam, and attacks on Islam are taken very seriously.

The "political cartoons" of Islam are reminiscent.
ttp://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/search.php

"Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

?

Cinlef

  • The Elder Ones
  • 969
  • The Earth is a Sphere
Islam
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2006, 10:54:44 AM »
Serioulsy thought there is no doubt a degree of latitute in how you intepret  Mohammed sayings. at a mosque you would no doubt find a scholar how could give you a better intepretation taken in context of the total work and keeping in mind nuances and subtleties that can be lsot in translation. An iman no doubt knows more about Islam than us random collection internet forum using people
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

Islam
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2006, 03:12:13 PM »
Cinlef, you may or may not br correct, I would never underestimate the knowledge of forum users of any type.  There are some crazy studious people on the internet
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Advocatus Diaboli

?

Cinlef

  • The Elder Ones
  • 969
  • The Earth is a Sphere
Islam
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2006, 04:45:12 PM »
YEs I know however so far no iman or devot muslim or expert on muslim theology has jumped in. (And identified themselves as such) Thus he should seek out people with expertise since Im assuming someone with knowledge could refute his points. If anyone on the forum does have those expertise now would be a good time to speak up and make me look like a buffoon
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

Islam
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2006, 04:53:21 PM »
That is true, but no matter how callous and cynical it seems, most iman and devout muslims have the general muslim agenda to support.  Whereas somone who simply studies the religion in an objective sort of way would be able to offer straight from the text answers
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Advocatus Diaboli

?

Cinlef

  • The Elder Ones
  • 969
  • The Earth is a Sphere
Islam
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2006, 04:58:11 PM »
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
That is true, but no matter how callous and cynical it seems, most iman and devout muslims have the general muslim agenda to support.  Whereas somone who simply studies the religion in an objective sort of way would be able to offer straight from the text answers

But the text itself is not really my main point of corcern its the interpretation. While some sort of religious expert is no doubt also a good source for something like this my point was their are devout muslims who dont go around killing unbeleivers, yet sincerely believe in their religion. They must thus have a different interpretation of the relevant parts of the Koran than Mephistophles and would probably be willing to share it with him assuming he asks respectfully.
I feel like I should mount some argument in defence of Islam myself but in all honesty as a Catholic I've never read the Koran and have only a laymans knowledge of Islam.
Thus I figured ask an expert
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom