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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)

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Ubuntu

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« on: July 15, 2006, 09:34:20 AM »
http://www.coolantarctica.com/Travel/antarctica_travel_home.htm

For about $4000 you can have a full tour of Antarctica. What was that you said about ice wall security?


You say this ice wall is 150 feet high. This 150 foot high wall of ice holds in 1.3 billion cubic kilometres of ocean water, which is 1.4 × 10[to the 21st power] kilograms. Can you imagine the pressure being put on this wall?


150 ft x 413 028 000 ft (78225 miles) =  61 954 200 000 sqr ft


61 954 200 000 sqr ft x 929.0304 = 57 557 335 207 680 sqr cm


1 350 000 000 000 000 000 tonnes / 57 557 335 207 680 = 23 454.87321692173 per sqr cm [rounded decimal]


23 454.87321692173 tonnes x 1000 = 23 454 873.21692173 kg per sqr cm


Now I don't know how thick this wall is exactly, but it's going to need to be pretty wide to withstand over 23 MILLION KILOGRAMS OF PRESSURE PER SQUARE CENTIMETRE!


Sources and Background Equations:


[10(to the 18th power) = 1 000 000 000 000 000 000]

[1.35 x 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 =  1 350 000 000 000 000 000 tonnes]

[1 mile = 5 280 foot]

[1 square feet = 929.0304 square centimeter]

[1 tonne = 1000 kilograms]



"Q: "What is the circumference and diameter of the Earth?"

A: Circumference: 78225 miles, Diameter: 24,900 miles

Q: "Why doesn't water run off the Earth?"

A: There is a vast ice wall that keeps the water where it is. The ice wall is roughly 150ft high. This also explains why you can find a vast plane of ice when you travel south."

-FAQ http://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1324


"The mass of the oceans is approximately 1.35 × 10[to the 18th power] tonnes, or about 1/4400 of the total mass of the Earth."

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrosphere


"The volume of water in the oceans is enormous: 1.37 billion cubic kilometers (1.37 × 109 km3, or 0.328 × 109 mi.3)"

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceans#Physical_properties


-Duxbury, Alyn. An Introduction to the World's Oceans - Sixth Edition. McGraw-Hill, 2000: 39.



"The area of the World Ocean is 361 million square kilometers (139 million sq mi), its volume is 1,340 million cubic kilometers (319 million cu mi), and its average depth is 3,711 meters (12,175 ft). Nearly half of the world's marine waters are over 3,000 meters (9,800 ft) deep."

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceans#Physical_properties


"The world ocean covers 71 percent of the earth’s surface, or about 361 million sq km (140 million sq mi). Its average depth is 5,000 m (16,000 ft), and its total volume is about 1,347,000,000 cu km (322,300,000 cu mi)."

-http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761574766/Ocean_and_Oceanography.html
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Mephistopheles

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2006, 10:58:43 AM »
Quote
Duxbury, Alyn. An Introduction to the World's Oceans - Sixth Edition. McGraw-Hill, 2000: 39.


You're kidding, right?  Actually using a McGraw-Hill book as a source?
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Ubuntu

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2006, 11:02:25 AM »
Quote from: "Mephistopheles"
Quote
Duxbury, Alyn. An Introduction to the World's Oceans - Sixth Edition. McGraw-Hill, 2000: 39.


You're kidding, right?  Actually using a McGraw-Hill book as a source?


What's wrong with a book published by the McGraw-Hill company? The facts agreed with everyone else's. Besides, I didn't use volume in my equations anyways, I used mass.

Way to ignore the rest of the post.
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Mephistopheles

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2006, 11:06:43 AM »
Quote
What's wrong with McGraw-Hill?


Farewell, thread.
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Ubuntu

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2006, 11:13:10 AM »
You totally ignored the irrefutable evidence. You didn't even attempt to debate this proof that the ice wall doesn't exists. Sounds like a surrender to me. I have proved that it is impossible that there is ice security and that no such ice wall could exist.
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Mephistopheles

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2006, 11:20:33 AM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
You didn't even attempt to debate this proof that the ice wall doesn't exists.


Of course I didn't.  This debate is old, boring, and frankly its pretty unoriginal.

Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Sounds like a surrender to me.


Sounds like someone wants to win something.  Oh yeah, and a little FYI:  I never claimed anything of either theory, so really I can't surrender seeing as how there is nothing to surrender in the first place.

Quote from: "Ubuntu"
I have proved that it is impossible that there is ice security and that no such ice wall could exist.


Not really.
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Ubuntu

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2006, 11:55:16 AM »
I have mathematically proven that this ice wall could not exist due to the extreme pressure from the oceans.
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6strings

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2006, 11:57:17 AM »
No, you've proven (if that, tl;dr) that it has to be really thick, but nothing else.
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Erasmus

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2006, 08:39:21 PM »
Ubuntu, water pressure on the walls of a chamber depends only on the depth of the water, not the width.  Otherwise, swimming underwater in the ocean would hurt your ears more than swimming underwater in a swimming pool.

As usual, this was discussed to death in another thread.  Maybe it needs to go in the FAQ.  We devised all sorts of poking-holes-in-jugs experiments and everybody was eventually convinced.

Quote
I have mathematically proven that this ice wall could not exist due to the extreme pressure from the oceans.


Ah, the hubris!
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TheEngineer

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2006, 08:45:31 PM »
I have disproven this before.  Here is the link for the thread.  My analysis is on the second page.
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2641
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Ubuntu

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2006, 11:13:47 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Ubuntu, water pressure on the walls of a chamber depends only on the depth of the water, not the width.  Otherwise, swimming underwater in the ocean would hurt your ears more than swimming underwater in a swimming pool.


It is impossible that any ice wall could hold back the ocean water. At the lower parts, the pressure would be so great that no ice could withstand it.

I would like someone to address the $4000 tours of Antarctica.
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TheEngineer

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2006, 09:44:45 AM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"

It is impossible that any ice wall could hold back the ocean water. At the lower parts, the pressure would be so great that no ice could withstand it.

Read my previous post.  Here, I'll help you:
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
The pressure on a wall or dam is called hydrostatic pressure. It is defined as P = pgd where P is the pressure, p is the mass density, g is gravity, and d is depth (or height of water column). An important fact of fluid pressure is that at any point in a liquid, the pressure is the same in all directions.

Think about a diver in the ocean. He will feel the same pressure on his nose as he will on both of his ears.
Thus, the prssure in any direction at a depth d in a fluid with density p is P=pgd

Take the pressure on the ice wall at a certain depth (say 100 ft). I have made certain assumpions, mainly for simplicity, namely that pg (weight density) for water is 62.5lb/ft^3 (this is for fresh water and salt water is slightly heavier). So using the weight density: P = (62.5lb/ft^3)(100ft). P = 6 250 lb/ft^2 or 43.4 psi or 298.7kPa.

Now if you really want me to, I can do the calculus to find the force applied over the entire area of the wall. However, as we can see, the pressure applied is rather small, so the force won't be anywhere near the force calculated by DrQuak.

Think about it. Dams are built relatively thin at the top and very wide at the bottom. If the force was constant, the walls would have to be uniform. Since the force is greater near the bottom, the walls have to be thicker to resist the force.

Quote
It is impossible that any ice wall could hold back the ocean water. At the lower parts, the pressure would be so great that no ice could withstand it.

Even at 100ft, the pressure is just a bit more than what is in a car tire.  So, no, the force is not so immense that it would shatter the ice.
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Ubuntu

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2006, 10:49:21 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"

It is impossible that any ice wall could hold back the ocean water. At the lower parts, the pressure would be so great that no ice could withstand it.

Read my previous post.  Here, I'll help you:
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
The pressure on a wall or dam is called hydrostatic pressure. It is defined as P = pgd where P is the pressure, p is the mass density, g is gravity, and d is depth (or height of water column). An important fact of fluid pressure is that at any point in a liquid, the pressure is the same in all directions.

Think about a diver in the ocean. He will feel the same pressure on his nose as he will on both of his ears.
Thus, the prssure in any direction at a depth d in a fluid with density p is P=pgd

Take the pressure on the ice wall at a certain depth (say 100 ft). I have made certain assumpions, mainly for simplicity, namely that pg (weight density) for water is 62.5lb/ft^3 (this is for fresh water and salt water is slightly heavier). So using the weight density: P = (62.5lb/ft^3)(100ft). P = 6 250 lb/ft^2 or 43.4 psi or 298.7kPa.

Now if you really want me to, I can do the calculus to find the force applied over the entire area of the wall. However, as we can see, the pressure applied is rather small, so the force won't be anywhere near the force calculated by DrQuak.

Think about it. Dams are built relatively thin at the top and very wide at the bottom. If the force was constant, the walls would have to be uniform. Since the force is greater near the bottom, the walls have to be thicker to resist the force.

Quote
It is impossible that any ice wall could hold back the ocean water. At the lower parts, the pressure would be so great that no ice could withstand it.

Even at 100ft, the pressure is just a bit more than what is in a car tire.  So, no, the force is not so immense that it would shatter the ice.


I was talking about the parts of the ocean that are thousands of feet deep.


I would like someone to address the $4000 tours of Antarctica.
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TheEngineer

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2006, 11:25:19 AM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"

You say this ice wall is 150 feet high. This 150 foot high wall of ice holds in 1.3 billion cubic kilometres of ocean water, which is 1.4 × 10[to the 21st power] kilograms. Can you imagine the pressure being put on this wall?


150 ft x 413 028 000 ft (78225 miles) =  61 954 200 000 sqr ft

In your original calculations you took the ice wall to be 150 ft. high (or deep, in your case).  
Quote
I was talking about the parts of the ocean that are thousands of feet deep.
No you were not.
Quote
I would like someone to address the $4000 tours of Antarctica.

Obviously the conspiracy would set aside a section of the Antarctica for research and tours.  People are just not allowed to be outside a certain zone.
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Ubuntu

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2006, 12:09:33 PM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Obviously the conspiracy would set aside a section of the Antarctica for research and tours.  People are just not allowed to be outside a certain zone.


It seems strange then that you can tour the entire continent and cruise around the entire coast.

Quote
Even at 100ft, the pressure is just a bit more than what is in a car tire. So, no, the force is not so immense that it would shatter the ice.


The ice could not withstand the water pressure thousands of feet down.
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TheEngineer

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2006, 12:31:56 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"

Quote
Even at 100ft, the pressure is just a bit more than what is in a car tire. So, no, the force is not so immense that it would shatter the ice.


The ice could not withstand the water pressure thousands of feet down.

So, besides the fact that your calculations were grossly inaccurate, you are now changing the inital conditions of the equations?
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Ubuntu

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2006, 12:38:02 PM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"

Quote
Even at 100ft, the pressure is just a bit more than what is in a car tire. So, no, the force is not so immense that it would shatter the ice.


The ice could not withstand the water pressure thousands of feet down.

So, besides the fact that your calculations were grossly inaccurate, you are now changing the inital conditions of the equations?



The ice could not withstand the water pressure thousands of feet down.
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TheEngineer

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2006, 12:46:12 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"

The ice could not withstand the water pressure thousands of feet down.

The ice wall is only 150 ft in height.
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Ubuntu

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2006, 12:52:06 PM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"

The ice could not withstand the water pressure thousands of feet down.

The ice wall is only 150 ft in height.


If the ice wall is 150 feet high, then what prevents the oceans from spilling out, considering that they are thousands of feet deep?

Also, why wouldn't the ice wall periodically crack like ice normally does?
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Ralnir

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2006, 01:04:55 PM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
The ice wall is only 150 ft in height.

I thought that was above the surface. Anyway, if the depth of the ocean is only 150 feet at the edge, then why all the worries about global warming being fatal on a flat earth? The sea level would drop by 150 feet, but this would actually be better compared to global warming on RE because there would be more land to live upon, and of course everybody would notice that the earth is actually flat (which everybody already does because it would take insane amounts of people in the conspiracy to make it work) and you will be proven right, so actually you should be happy with global warming, because the wall melting would be the only way people are going to believe you FEers. Ever.
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TheEngineer

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2006, 01:06:31 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"

If the ice wall is 150 feet high, then what prevents the oceans from spilling out, considering that they are thousands of feet deep?

From the notion of the ice wall being 150 ft high, that means that either the depth of the ocean at the ice wall is less than 150 ft, or that the ice wall sits on a land mass and serves to only keep tidal surges and such in.  I don't believe that there is a FE concensus on this issue.  So that means that the ice  is not thousands of feet deep, and the '150ft ice wall' implies.
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Ubuntu

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2006, 01:11:28 PM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"

If the ice wall is 150 feet high, then what prevents the oceans from spilling out, considering that they are thousands of feet deep?

From the notion of the ice wall being 150 ft high, that means that either the depth of the ocean at the ice wall is less than 150 ft, or that the ice wall sits on a land mass and serves to only keep tidal surges and such in.  I don't believe that there is a FE concensus on this issue.  So that means that the ice  is not thousands of feet deep, and the '150ft ice wall' implies.


If the ocean were only 150 feet high, there would be no need for an ice wall. ^_^ It's only a small bit of ocean.
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James

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2006, 02:06:35 PM »
The only conclusion can be that the ice wall is not 150 feet tall. It's thousands tall.
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TheEngineer

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2006, 02:17:34 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"

If the ocean were only 150 feet high, there would be no need for an ice wall. ^_^ It's only a small bit of ocean.

What?  The ocean is 150 ft high?  Do you mean deep?  Who said the ocean is 150ft deep?
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Ralnir

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2006, 02:30:44 PM »
you, indirectly. If the ice wall is 150 ft deep (which you said, and it isn't about the height above the surface because it was a reaction to Ubuntu's
Quote
'The ice could not withstand the water pressure thousands of feet down.'
the oceans must be 150 ft deep at the ice wall.
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Erasmus

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2006, 06:21:59 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
The ice could not withstand the water pressure thousands of feet down.


Proofs please, with maths.

I'll save you the time.  You have no idea what you're talking about.  Your initial calculations, as TheEngineer has said, were all red herrings.  That simply isn't how pressure works.  The water pressure, say, 1000 m below the surface is 101 atmospheres (+1 atm / 10 meters), or 1414 lbs per square inch.  That's 3280 feet down, which I think counts as "thousands of feet".  Do you really think a wall of ice several miles thick is going to crack under that sort of pressure?  Several miles thick, mind you.

REers need to stop making up laws of physics whenever it suits them.
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Ubuntu

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2006, 10:01:45 PM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
The ice could not withstand the water pressure thousands of feet down.


Proofs please, with maths.

I'll save you the time.  You have no idea what you're talking about.  Your initial calculations, as TheEngineer has said, were all red herrings.  That simply isn't how pressure works.  The water pressure, say, 1000 m below the surface is 101 atmospheres (+1 atm / 10 meters), or 1414 lbs per square inch.  That's 3280 feet down, which I think counts as "thousands of feet".  Do you really think a wall of ice several miles thick is going to crack under that sort of pressure?  Several miles thick, mind you.

REers need to stop making up laws of physics whenever it suits them.


"Well, you can imagine how incredible the pressure must be in the Challenger Deep with almost seven miles of water overhead - it's 16,000 pounds per square inch!"

-http://www.extremescience.com/DeepestOcean.htm
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Erasmus

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2006, 11:33:59 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
"Well, you can imagine how incredible the pressure must be in the Challenger Deep with almost seven miles of water overhead - it's 16,000 pounds per square inch!"


It turns out that

a) Challenger Deep withstood the pressure

b) Challenger Deep is not made of ice

c) That value of the pressure agrees quite nicely with my depth-dependent pressure formula (7 mi * 5280 ft/mi / (1 atm / 33 ft) * (14 psi / atm) = 15,680 psi) and not at all with your volume-of-the-oceans-based formula.

So basically, this rather exciting fact about Challenger Deep is nevertheless a complete non sequitur -- except in that it talks about water pressure, it has nothing at all in common with the issue at hand and it in no way disagrees with any claim I've made.  Thanks for the link though!
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CrimsonKing

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There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof here)
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2006, 11:37:13 PM »
I think that is exactly what Erasmus is talking about with the red herring.

Pressure is a function of depth more than volume.  So assuming that all the oceans are interconnected, it would be more like filling a basin, with an ice wall on the outside, so an incredible amount of pressure would not be applied directly to the icewall.  Including the tide, dynamic water pressure is difficult to calculate, and frankly, I'm much too lazy.

The challenger has 7 miles of depth above it, which is determinate of the pressure
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Phoenix

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Re: There is no ice wall security and no ice wall (proof her
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2006, 12:25:59 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"

Obviously the conspiracy would set aside a section of the Antarctica for research and tours.  People are just not allowed to be outside a certain zone.


Ummmm....yeah. I always find it amusing how people bend the unimaginable to fit the conspiracy. I tend to favor Occam's Razor.
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