Time

Quote from: "qwerty789"

Quote from: "Ubuntu"

Quote from: "cadmium_blimp"

Is it really free will if you can't change any of your decisions?

Sure I can. My chemicals can change the chemicals that make decisions. I take responsibility for my life, I don't blame everything on fate.

No, you can't.

Given a precise enough data set, and enough money, time, and computer power, you could 'predict' the future by just running all the equations forward.

The problem with this is the precise enough data set and chaos theory.  Missing one gamma ray striking some brain cell of some kid today might make a huge difference in the world in 50 years.

No qwerty. It is impossible to accuratly measure both the position and velocity of a particle. It is also impossible to measure accuratly both the strength and change of any field. Quantum Physics, which governs the world of the very small, works on probabilities, not determinism. You can only predict the probability a particle will be in a number of positions or hold a number of different velocities, you can't know what they are by measuring them or else you lose either the position or velocities.

in short, quantum physics kills this notion of the world, that if you knew all the positions and velocities of all the particles in the universe, that you could predict the outcome via the laws of physics. Because you can never know.

This doesn't kill scientific determinism though. Our actions may already have been decided since the beginning of the universe, but for different reasons.

You're assuming that the nonsense which is quantum theory is at all correct.

Quote from: "troubadour"

Quote from: "qwerty789"

Quote from: "Ubuntu"

Quote from: "cadmium_blimp"

Is it really free will if you can't change any of your decisions?

Sure I can. My chemicals can change the chemicals that make decisions. I take responsibility for my life, I don't blame everything on fate.

No, you can't.

Given a precise enough data set, and enough money, time, and computer power, you could 'predict' the future by just running all the equations forward.

The problem with this is the precise enough data set and chaos theory.  Missing one gamma ray striking some brain cell of some kid today might make a huge difference in the world in 50 years.

No qwerty. It is impossible to accuratly measure both the position and velocity of a particle. It is also impossible to measure accuratly both the strength and change of any field. Quantum Physics, which governs the world of the very small, works on probabilities, not determinism. You can only predict the probability a particle will be in a number of positions or hold a number of different velocities, you can't know what they are by measuring them or else you lose either the position or velocities.

in short, quantum physics kills this notion of the world, that if you knew all the positions and velocities of all the particles in the universe, that you could predict the outcome via the laws of physics. Because you can never know.

This doesn't kill scientific determinism though. Our actions may already have been decided since the beginning of the universe, but for different reasons.

You're assuming that the nonsense which is quantum theory is at all correct.

um actually qwerty, it is correct. Not only has it been around since the 1930s, it has been tested and tried and attacked(even by Einstien) many many times and shown everyone that yes, infact it is correct.

Particles exist in an unknown quantum state until measured. Then you only know what state they were in when you measured them, and not to 100% accuracy. Try to apply the laws of newton or general relativity on a small scale and you will fail. Particles, even some complex molecules, do not obey deterministic laws such as newtonian dynamics or GR. Without quantum physics and the uncertainty principle to explain what we experience on a small scale, we would of been scratching our heads at what we found in the world of the small for the last 76 years.

Because of the uncertainty principle, you cannot simply just plug all of the positions and velocity of particles(and fields) in the universe into a ToE type equation and predict the future or know what happened int he past. Beyond the technical reasons for why that wouldn't work (massive amount of computing power required) you cannot know the exact position and velocity of any one particle. Thereby you are limited by the laws of nature also.

Don't make me send an e-mail to Prof. Hallock to confirm what I am stating here.

LOL

Guy, you have too much faith in your 'science'.  Don't feel too bad, you've been conditioned to think like this. Everything has always been correct until it isn't anymore. Math is fun like that, you can stretch it to prove rather bullshit ideas, like earth being the center of the universe.

LOL

Guy, you have too much faith in your 'science'.  Don't feel too bad, you've been conditioned to think like this. Everything has always been correct until it isn't anymore. Math is fun like that, you can stretch it to prove rather bullshit ideas, like earth being the center of the universe.

ummm, lol. That's all I have to say to your kind of ilk.

ummm, lol. That's all I have to say to your kind of ilk.

Interesting to see the reaction of a person who's just had their blind faith thrown in their face.  Denial and avoidance at its best I would say.

 And what kind of ilk am I?  Your preconceived notions seem to be hindering you mentally.  Too bad we aren't having this discussion a few hundred years ago, and you could 'educate' me on how PROVEN CORRECT newton is.  It's all proven correct until it's proven incorrect.  That you can't even fatom that quantum mechanics could be wrong is rather ironic, but rather common yet sad at the same time. Clearly you must be the generation with the absolutely correct answers to everything.

Quote from: "troubadour"

ummm, lol. That's all I have to say to your kind of ilk.

Interesting to see the reaction of a person who's just had their blind faith thrown in their face.  Denial and avoidance at its best I would say.

 And what kind of ilk am I?  Your preconceived notions seem to be hindering you mentally.  Too bad we aren't having this discussion a few hundred years ago, and you could 'educate' me on how PROVEN CORRECT newton is.  It's all proven correct until it's proven incorrect.  That you can't even fatom that quantum mechanics could be wrong is rather ironic, but rather common yet sad at the same time. Clearly you must be the generation with the absolutely correct answers to everything.

Apply Newtonian Physics to the electron around the nucleus of a hydrogen atom. Go.

Apply Newtonian Physics to the electron around the nucleus of a hydrogen atom. Go.

Either you're dumb enough to misinterpret the Newton comment, or you lack the brain capacity to ponder abstract thought.  Either way, good bye, I'll leave the generation that must be absolutely correct for no real reason to have a mental circle jerk in peace.

Alright, break it up you two.

you do know that newtonian science isn't wrong don't you?


it works perfectly on the macro scale.


Just as when/if we find errors in the current standard model, quantum physics will not be wrong, it will only apply to the micro scale.


and qwerty if our "faith" in our "science" is wrong.... what, according to qwerty, is the truth?


What does the qwerty beleive in?


IF you had the information for every partcile in the universe, then yes you could predict the future. However that would be pointless and impossible on more than one level. it would be pointless because if you knew the future, then, by definition, whatever you do is irrelevent, because the future will happen anyway. It is impossible because A) you cannot possibly ever collate the information of every particle - doing it on a litre of water would take more time than the universe has existed for B) Heisenberg uncertainty principle (although certain lead scientists believe that it may be wrong, it is just finding a way of proving it wrong)

you do know that newtonian science isn't wrong don't you?


it works perfectly on the macro scale.


Just as when/if we find errors in the current standard model, quantum physics will not be wrong, it will only apply to the micro scale.


and qwerty if our "faith" in our "science" is wrong.... what, according to qwerty, is the truth?


What does the qwerty beleive in?


IF you had the information for every partcile in the universe, then yes you could predict the future. However that would be pointless and impossible on more than one level. it would be pointless because if you knew the future, then, by definition, whatever you do is irrelevent, because the future will happen anyway. It is impossible because A) you cannot possibly ever collate the information of every particle - doing it on a litre of water would take more time than the universe has existed for B) Heisenberg uncertainty principle (although certain lead scientists believe that it may be wrong, it is just finding a way of proving it wrong)

Well, you slightly overgeneralized what I was saying there. I was just poking fun at the raging hardon troubadour seems to have over the impossiblity that quantum mechanics could be wrong in any way what so ever. That somehow his college professor has revealed some indeniable universal truth to him. Perhaps at the same time I was saying something deeper as well. Science like this I call faith.  Regardless of whether it is right or not, having FAITH that something is right, that's a hard one to deal with.  Question everything, no matter what.