Entropy?

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Entropy?
« on: October 07, 2009, 07:20:57 AM »
Do you think that we will ever be able to decrease the total entropy in the universe? if so How? My bet is quantum generators that use Brownian motion. At least I have not read anything that says it could not work. I also would like to here if anyone knows how energy from virtual particles affects the total entropy in the universe.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 02:11:44 PM by optimisticcynic »
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2009, 08:44:39 AM »
Do you think that we will ever be able to decrease the total entropy in the universe?
Nope.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

Re: Entropy?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2009, 09:33:02 AM »
 I know on really small scale it can be lowered. I figure a way to get energy from heat(note not difference in heat such as generator do now) would be a really small magnet in a coil of wire. Brownian motion would move the magnet generating current. with some diodes and a wall of them it seems possibly to get turn heat into electricity. again this is just what I thought it seem to me. if there is a reason this can't happen I would like to here it.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 02:11:56 PM by optimisticcynic »
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Mykael

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2009, 10:03:49 AM »
Do you think that we will ever be able to decrease the total entropy in the universe? if so How? My bet is quantum generators that use Bernoulli's motion. At least I have not read anything that says it could not work. I also would like to here if anyone knows how energy from virtual particles affects the total entropy in the universe.
l2Asimov

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 12:30:23 PM »
I know on really small scale it can be lowered. I figure a way to get energy from heat(note not difference in heat such as generator do now) would be a really small magnet in a coil of wire. Bernoulli's motion would move the magnet generating current. with some diodes and a wall of them it seems possibly to get turn heat into electricity. again this is just what I thought it seem to me. if there is a reason this can't happen I would like to here it.
Just to clarify, are you proposing we try to use chaotic virtual particles in order to push a magnet through a wire?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Johannes

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 01:13:44 PM »
Do you think that we will ever be able to decrease the total entropy in the universe? if so How? My bet is quantum generators that use Bernoulli's motion. At least I have not read anything that says it could not work. I also would like to here if anyone knows how energy from virtual particles affects the total entropy in the universe.
No

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Euclid

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 01:26:31 PM »
If the Universe has a maximum value of entropy, entropy is just as likely to increase as decrease across time.  For some reason, a very large downward fluctuation in entropy coincided with the Big Bang, and the Universe is still recovering from that fluctuation.  The second law of thermodynamics is a consequence of the fact that the Universe started out in a large downward entropy fluctuation.
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Euclid

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 01:31:31 PM »
Eventually, another large downward fluctuation may happen, probably long after the heat death of this one, giving birth to a Universe where interesting things happen.
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

Re: Entropy?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 02:11:27 PM »
I know on really small scale it can be lowered. I figure a way to get energy from heat(note not difference in heat such as generator do now) would be a really small magnet in a coil of wire. Bernoulli's motion would move the magnet generating current. with some diodes and a wall of them it seems possibly to get turn heat into electricity. again this is just what I thought it seem to me. if there is a reason this can't happen I would like to here it.
Just to clarify, are you proposing we try to use chaotic virtual particles in order to push a magnet through a wire?
No two separate thoughts. on a really small scale although recently it has been proven to work on things up to the size of a red blood cell you get a particle moving randomly due to changes in pressure. every now and then one area gets a little hotter then the average and every now and then it will push a particle in a certain direction. this is getting useful energy from heat. Second I messed up I meant Brownian motion.
You can't outrun death forever
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Wendy

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 05:42:13 PM »
Do you think that we will ever be able to decrease the total entropy in the universe? if so How? My bet is quantum generators that use Bernoulli's motion. At least I have not read anything that says it could not work. I also would like to here if anyone knows how energy from virtual particles affects the total entropy in the universe.
l2Asimov

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

That was beautiful.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2009, 01:31:01 PM »
Do you think that we will ever be able to decrease the total entropy in the universe? if so How? My bet is quantum generators that use Bernoulli's motion. At least I have not read anything that says it could not work. I also would like to here if anyone knows how energy from virtual particles affects the total entropy in the universe.
l2Asimov

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

Brilliance. Asimov was a genius.

Re: Entropy?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2009, 09:29:50 PM »
The level at which we'd have to function in order to change the Universe's level of entropy would be insanely complex and unimaginable in terms of scale.

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parsec

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2009, 12:56:30 AM »
the op does not know what entropy is.

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Wendy

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2009, 01:34:41 AM »
How do you figure he doesn't?
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

Re: Entropy?
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2009, 09:24:44 PM »
the op does not know what entropy is.
That was useful. either say what I "don't understand" or something that is useful towards the discussion.
You can't outrun death forever
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parsec

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2009, 01:48:59 AM »
the op does not know what entropy is.
That was useful. either say what I "don't understand" or something that is useful towards the discussion.
I just said. You don't understand entropy.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2009, 11:21:47 AM »
on a really small scale although recently it has been proven to work on things up to the size of a red blood cell you get a particle moving randomly due to changes in pressure. every now and then one area gets a little hotter then the average and every now and then it will push a particle in a certain direction. this is getting useful energy from heat. Second I messed up I meant Brownian motion.
I can't imagine ever creating a machine that was perfectly efficient at reusing energy, and therefore I can't imagine preventing entropy from increasing by radiation (like heat) escaping. I feel like at most, we can to slow it down or speed it up. However, You're talking about a complete reversal, and I can't see how we could ever accomplish that.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 08:33:11 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

Re: Entropy?
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2009, 03:06:11 PM »
on a really small scale although recently it has been proven to work on things up to the size of a red blood cell you get a particle moving randomly due to changes in pressure. every now and then one area gets a little hotter then the average and every now and then it will push a particle in a certain direction. this is getting useful energy from heat. Second I messed up I meant Brownian motion.
I can't imagine ever creating a machine that was perfectly efficient at reusing energy, and therefore I can't imagine preventing entropy from increasing by radiation (like heat) escaping. I feel like at most, we can to slow it down or speed it up. However, You're talking about a complete reversal, and I can't see how we could ever accomplish that.


here this explains Brownian motion fairly well. it seems to me that you could use it to get energy directly from heat.
http://xanadu.math.utah.edu/java/brownianmotion/1/
it would not need to be 100 percent efficient in order to reduce the entropy in a closed system.
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But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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Dr Matrix

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2009, 10:12:48 AM »
Eventually, another large downward fluctuation may happen, probably long after the heat death of this one, giving birth to a Universe where interesting things happen.

Just out of interest, how do you define entropy in a Universe where you effectively live inside a shrinking event horizon?  Since the expansion of the Universe is accelerating, the amount of matter we can have causal contact with should be decreasing (since the most distant objects will recede faster than c)... does that mean that eventually the Universe will end up smaller than the Planck length ('the Big Rip'), leading to the very idea of entropy being meaningless?
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Euclid

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2009, 06:23:31 PM »
Would dark energy be able to rip all things apart?  My understanding is that dark energy will eventually put all galaxies out of causal contact with each other, and eventually all matter will fall into black holes.  Then all the black holes will evaporate due to Hawking radiation, leaving nothing but the vacuum and stray photons and elementary particles.
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

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Dr Matrix

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2009, 05:17:00 AM »
Would dark energy be able to rip all things apart?  My understanding is that dark energy will eventually put all galaxies out of causal contact with each other, and eventually all matter will fall into black holes.  Then all the black holes will evaporate due to Hawking radiation, leaving nothing but the vacuum and stray photons and elementary particles.

The version I read was that DE will continually increase in strength, initially moving the galaxies out of causal contact, then the stars, then in a very rapid sequence solar systems, planets and everything down to the scale of the Planck length, where physics becomes meaningless and anything goes.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Re: Entropy?
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2009, 05:55:36 AM »
What makes the matter in our universe to exist? It is, in brief, the continuous motion of some tiny particules (no need to go on for the details). Then one may wonder and what makes the matter of these tiny particules to also exist. Logically, it has to be the continuous motion of some tiny tiny particules (as taking the square of tiny for example :) ). May we can go on till we reach to the tiniest particules (tiny to the power of infinity) that we are able to imagine?... because if it happens that their motion has to stop... you can tell me what could be next ;D

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Dr Matrix

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2009, 07:37:13 AM »
What makes the matter in our universe to exist? It is, in brief, the continuous motion of some tiny particules (no need to go on for the details). Then one may wonder and what makes the matter of these tiny particules to also exist. Logically, it has to be the continuous motion of some tiny tiny particules (as taking the square of tiny for example :) ). May we can go on till we reach to the tiniest particules (tiny to the power of infinity) that we are able to imagine?... because if it happens that their motion has to stop... you can tell me what could be next ;D

Physics on a scale shorter than the Planck length ceases to by meaningful, so there is a natural limit to what we can say about the fundamental nature of the Universe at present.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Re: Entropy?
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2009, 10:38:54 AM »
You are right. That is why scientists will need a long time to realize that the limits (shortest or largest) of our universe are not the limits of our whole existence. In fact that explains why they didn't find yet the real mechanism of gravity by which a force (hence energy and power) is applied thru what is supposed to be a vacuum though in its real space there are a huge number of carriers belonging to the tiny tiny particules (in the least) which cannot be observed other than by calculating their supposed characteristics and effects. For instance and since about 30 years, I was expecting to hear the discovery that transforms electrical energy to a mass gravitational field. Perhaps it is already done but not revealed openly. I couldn't be interested to join such a research because I would surely need to work for some bosses too hence to lose my actual personal freedom in every minute of my life. The good news is... sooner or later someone in the world will do what I missed to do ;D
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 10:42:55 AM by Thank_you »

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Dr Matrix

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2009, 10:45:03 AM »
I'm pretty confident if my boss believed I had a way of controlling gravity with electricity, he'd let me work on it!
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Re: Entropy?
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2009, 11:18:30 AM »
I believe many scientists are already working on it to build what could be called an artificial mass and anti-mass as well. The first application of it would likely be for air transportation using dish-like planes so that the interactive fields can use their below surface effectively. Then solving how to move horizontally would be rather a simple matter for such planes. In any case these new planes cannot be made practical before the common use of the atomic or nuclear batteries which are in a rapid progress lately (that is why terror and wars were created lately so that oil can be sold at rather very high prices for many years and since 2001 before it becomes a second source of energy in the near future :-X )

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Dr Matrix

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2009, 11:19:56 AM »
Riiiight.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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Euclid

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2009, 01:50:25 PM »
Would dark energy be able to rip all things apart?  My understanding is that dark energy will eventually put all galaxies out of causal contact with each other, and eventually all matter will fall into black holes.  Then all the black holes will evaporate due to Hawking radiation, leaving nothing but the vacuum and stray photons and elementary particles.

The version I read was that DE will continually increase in strength, initially moving the galaxies out of causal contact, then the stars, then in a very rapid sequence solar systems, planets and everything down to the scale of the Planck length, where physics becomes meaningless and anything goes.

I think that's phantom energy, which is different from dark energy in that its equation of state parameter w is greater than one and could change.
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

?

Dr Matrix

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2009, 02:47:25 PM »
I think that's phantom energy, which is different from dark energy in that its equation of state parameter w is greater than one and could change.

I confess that's a new one for me - the last I heard was the distant supernovae had shown a trend not only for expansion, but for accelerating expansion.  If the acceleration remained constant, then ultimately causal contact would be lost even between quarks in a neutron...  Still, it's been a few years since I did any cosmology so maybe DE has been subdivided by now.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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Euclid

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Re: Entropy?
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2009, 03:24:27 PM »
I think that's phantom energy, which is different from dark energy in that its equation of state parameter w is greater than one and could change.

I confess that's a new one for me - the last I heard was the distant supernovae had shown a trend not only for expansion, but for accelerating expansion.  If the acceleration remained constant, then ultimately causal contact would be lost even between quarks in a neutron...  Still, it's been a few years since I did any cosmology so maybe DE has been subdivided by now.

Yeah, here's wiki to save the day.  The Big Rip

If w < -1, then the scale factor of the universe will become infinite at finite time in the future and the expansion will become powerful enough to rip apart all particles.  I'm not sure if dark energy would do the same thing given enough time though.   Dark energy is extremely weak on everyday scales.
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)