Should evil exist?

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Areweonfiya

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Should evil exist?
« on: September 26, 2009, 10:28:06 AM »
This will just be further philosophical discussion on the whole God thing.

With that said, Should evil exist?

The Christian god is known as a Tri-O style diety Omnipotent(all powerful) Omnicient(all knowing) Omnibenevolent(all good)

So what I'm asking is how could something thats all knowing all good and all powerful have athiests if athiests go to hell. A better question is how can a hell even exist for with such a being or rather how can evil in any form natural or otherwise exist to warrent a hell.

The simple answer is evil cant exist, but yet clearly it does, so that means that if a god exists Hes only 2 of the three above.

Either he knows everything and is all good but is powerless against evil
Or hes all powerful all knowing but rather ambivolent towards evil.
Or hes all good and all powerful but evil things escape his knowledge.

But this probably won't sway a Christian because traditionally they don't really care much for facts. Those are just pesky things which get in the way of blind adherence to dogma.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 10:41:33 AM by Areweonfiya »

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Parsifal

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2009, 10:29:24 AM »
Omnipresent does not mean "all knowing". Please learn how to correctly apply terminology before attempting to use it.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Areweonfiya

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2009, 10:37:23 AM »
Since he lives outside of the laws of our universe I doubt  that he is limited to his information whether it be past, present, or future.

Edit: woops. Sorry the word I was looking for was "Omnicient". My mistake
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 10:39:57 AM by Areweonfiya »

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Parsifal

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2009, 10:38:41 AM »
Since he lives outside of the laws of our universe I doubt  that he is limited to his information whether it be past, present, or future.

That has nothing to do with what I said.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Crudblud

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2009, 10:39:30 AM »
Since he lives outside of the laws of our universe I doubt  that he is limited to his information whether it be past, present, or future.
He means you're using the wrong word, "omnipresent" essentially means "eveywhere at once," the word you're looking for is "omniscient" which means "all knowing."

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2009, 10:39:36 AM »
Sounds like the problem of Evil.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

Epicurus - Greek philosopher, BC 341-270

A theist may come back with several answers but the most common would be that God gave us free will and that Satan rules the Earth right now but one day God will destroy him. It's all part of the grand plan dontcha know?

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The Terror

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2009, 02:08:23 PM »
I might be wrong about this, but I was under the impression that the Bible is a bit ambiguous on the traditional concept of hell as a place to punish sinners.

I've never read the Bible though, so I'm probably talking out of my arse.

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semperround

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2009, 02:46:53 PM »
consider the yin and yang. good cannot exist without evil.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 02:56:00 PM by semperround »
an vir

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2009, 02:51:40 PM »
Yin and yang, not ying and yang.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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semperround

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2009, 02:56:24 PM »
whoops, thanks for that.
an vir

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James

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2009, 04:29:34 PM »
Anybody grappling with the Problem of Evil will have great fun with John Milton's Paradise Lost. Milton's self-stated goal is to "justify the ways of God to men", which includes an explanation of the necessity of evil, perdition and all the rest, in the epic style of Hellenic poets.


In the mean time, I'll gladly come to the defense of theism and provide a specific response by suggesting that the omnipotence of the divine (which in any case, is not explicitly attested in scripture), need only include the ability to perform every act which is possible - I venture that this is an exact explication of the term "omnipotent": i.e., possessing every possible power.

Next, I apprehend that the prevention of all evil is impossible, it is not part of the set of all possible powers. The prevention of all evil is an impossibility because, according to Christian doctrine, the imperfection of humanity is intrinsic to its nature since the fall - "To err is human, to forgive, divine".

The deity retains omnipotence if it cannot perform an impossible act, because impossible acts are not within the scope of performance, by definition. An omnipotent, omnibenevolent demiurge can quite easily (must, in fact) bear passive witness to the unspeakable atrocities of Earth and Hell, because both are the consequences of the volition of humanity (or in the latter case, of angels), and for things to be any other way is inconceivable - humanity without its moral imperfections would not be humanity (and Lucifer without his vanity would not be Lucifer). Jehovah is under no obligation by omnipotence to do the undoable - and altering the essential nature of humanity without effacing its identity is not within the set of performable acts.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2009, 06:01:01 PM »
Fatal flaw in that reasoning though: Bible prophesises that God will in fact one day get rid of Evil on Earth. He seems capable but not willing right now at least. A theist could still argue that it's part of His plan though so they can't lose.

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James

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2009, 06:08:03 PM »
Fatal flaw in that reasoning though: Bible prophesises that God will in fact one day get rid of Evil on Earth. He seems capable but not willing right now at least. A theist could still argue that it's part of His plan though so they can't lose.

I think you may be mistaken. The Bible does not prohesise that God will get rid of evil at all, in the sense that it will no longer exist, only that purveyors of it will be relocated to the Lake of Fire to exist in a state of eternal misery. This is consistent with the notion that it can never be eradicated. The best God could possibly hope for, after centuries of careful planning, is containing the evil, not destroying it. He can still be considered omnipotent if this is the most desirable possible outcome.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2009, 06:09:12 PM »
Depending on your interpretation of course, seeing as some theists do not believe in a hell and do believe that God will wipe out all evil from the face of the Earth and make it a paradise once more.

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James

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2009, 06:14:03 PM »
Depending on your interpretation of course, seeing as some theists do not believe in a hell and do believe that God will wipe out all evil from the face of the Earth and make it a paradise once more.

I took the operative words in your post to be "the Bible prophesises". With this as a criterion, there is not really much room for interpretation:

Quote from: Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Couldn't be much more explicit.

I think you'll find that believers in the Celestial Jerusalem may tend to take "wiped out from the face of the Earth" as different from "wiped out of existence", since the Lake of Fire is a part of existence.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2009, 06:19:24 PM »
Okay well I wasn't looking for an argument and it's not even up for discussion; some people believe it whether you like it or not. Arguing with me about it isn't going to change that. Do I give a shit? No, I was just posting out of interest.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2009, 09:09:22 AM »
I venture that this is an exact explication of the term "omnipotent": i.e., possessing every possible power.
It always comes down to god being limited in one area.
...However, the entire supernatural realm is rather intrinsically linked with the impossible.

Or, by "possible" are you saying that it must be free of invalid logical implications? For instance, a power that is self contradictory is "impossible"?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 09:32:29 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2009, 09:32:30 AM »
Why does everybody seem to think that the Christian God is perfectly good?  It says in the bible that he is the creator of both good and evil.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2009, 09:33:38 AM »
Why does everybody seem to think that the Christian God is perfectly good?  It says in the bible that he is the creator of both good and evil.
Because what good is he as a comfort device if he's not perfectly good?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2009, 09:37:12 AM »
Have they read the Old Testament?  Particularly Exodus, where God condones such things as slavery, spousal abuse, slave abuse, rape, murder and even genocide.  What was it?  You're allowed to rape your female slaves but after a certain period of time you have to either marry them to set them free.

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Areweonfiya

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2009, 10:01:09 AM »
Have they read the Old Testament?  Particularly Exodus, where God condones such things as slavery, spousal abuse, slave abuse, rape, murder and even genocide.  What was it?  You're allowed to rape your female slaves but after a certain period of time you have to either marry them to set them free.

Well your supposed to ignore those parts remember?

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James

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2009, 10:43:56 AM »
I venture that this is an exact explication of the term "omnipotent": i.e., possessing every possible power.
It always comes down to god being limited in one area.
...However, the entire supernatural realm is rather intrinsically linked with the impossible.

Or, by "possible" are you saying that it must be free of invalid logical implications? For instance, a power that is self contradictory is "impossible"?

Yes, that was my intention. "All possible acts" more or less covers all acts which do not contain logical invalidity. Acts which are not part of this set include the laundry list of "how come God can't do (x)?!" questions - making a square triangle, creating a rock so heavy an infinitely strong being can't lift it, and preventing free agents from performing immoral acts.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Crudblud

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2009, 11:46:26 AM »
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

Epicurus - Greek philosopher, BC 341-270

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2009, 01:20:09 PM »
Yes, that was my intention. "All possible acts" more or less covers all acts which do not contain logical invalidity. Acts which are not part of this set include the laundry list of "how come God can't do (x)?!" questions - making a square triangle, creating a rock so heavy an infinitely strong being can't lift it, and preventing free agents from performing immoral acts.
So if god is limited to logical laws, did he not create them? Does logic supersede god's will and existence?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Areweonfiya

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2009, 06:15:57 PM »
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

Epicurus - Greek philosopher, BC 341-270

There are a lot of answers that religious people offer to this question but none of them are very good. This is because religious people often are unable to just say "I don't know".

The best answer is that God created the world and made it the way it is for a reason, as part of a plan. He obviously meant for us to struggle, to make hard decisions, to learn that there are dangers and pitfalls in life. He made us imperfect, and he gave us free will. Obviously he did this on purpose, so he must have had some purpose. It stands to reason that much of God's plan would be beyond our ability to understand.

God gave each of us the ability to choose between good and evil, so both good and evil must exist.

Of course this does contradict his obnevelonce. It's quite confusing really.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2009, 10:07:28 PM »
The best answer is that God created the world and made it the way it is for a reason, as part of a plan. He obviously meant for us to struggle, to make hard decisions, to learn that there are dangers and pitfalls in life. He made us imperfect, and he gave us free will. Obviously he did this on purpose, so he must have had some purpose. It stands to reason that much of God's plan would be beyond our ability to understand.
How is that an answer? It translates to "God is smarter than us so leave the uncomfortable dilemmas alone and blindly trust him".
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2009, 12:22:42 AM »
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

Epicurus - Greek philosopher, BC 341-270

There are a lot of answers that religious people offer to this question but none of them are very good. This is because religious people often are unable to just say "I don't know".

The best answer is that God created the world and made it the way it is for a reason, as part of a plan. He obviously meant for us to struggle, to make hard decisions, to learn that there are dangers and pitfalls in life. He made us imperfect, and he gave us free will. Obviously he did this on purpose, so he must have had some purpose. It stands to reason that much of God's plan would be beyond our ability to understand.

God gave each of us the ability to choose between good and evil, so both good and evil must exist.

Of course this does contradict his obnevelonce. It's quite confusing really.

Sounds like the problem of Evil.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

Epicurus - Greek philosopher, BC 341-270

A theist may come back with several answers but the most common would be that God gave us free will and that Satan rules the Earth right now but one day God will destroy him. It's all part of the grand plan dontcha know?

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2009, 12:23:13 AM »
The best answer is that God created the world and made it the way it is for a reason, as part of a plan. He obviously meant for us to struggle, to make hard decisions, to learn that there are dangers and pitfalls in life. He made us imperfect, and he gave us free will. Obviously he did this on purpose, so he must have had some purpose. It stands to reason that much of God's plan would be beyond our ability to understand.
How is that an answer? It translates to "God is smarter than us so leave the uncomfortable dilemmas alone and blindly trust him".

Er, yeah, have you never spoke to a theist?

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James

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2009, 03:30:21 AM »
So if god is limited to logical laws, did he not create them? Does logic supersede god's will and existence?

Logic is subject to itself, such that it could be no other way, so dominion over logical principles (which are valid or invalid only by virtue of the meanings of the constituent parts rather than by any material contingency) does not fall under the category of "all possible powers",  because it is not a possible power.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Should evil exist?
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2009, 10:10:14 AM »
So if god is limited to logical laws, did he not create them? Does logic supersede god's will and existence?

Logic is subject to itself, such that it could be no other way, so dominion over logical principles (which are valid or invalid only by virtue of the meanings of the constituent parts rather than by any material contingency) does not fall under the category of "all possible powers",  because it is not a possible power.
I just find it interesting that you suggest that logic existed prior to the creation of the universe, just because I don't see that argument often.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.