Time Zones

I live on the West coast of north America and at sunrise I called up my friend who lives 2000 miles away on the East coast of North America. I could just see the sun starting to come over the horizon, but for my friend the sun was much higher in the sky and casting full daylight. If we are both standing on the same flat surface why does the sun appear to be in different positions?

I live on the West coast of north America and at sunrise I called up my friend who lives 2000 miles away on the East coast of North America. I could just see the sun starting to come over the horizon, but for my friend the sun was much higher in the sky and casting full daylight. If we are both standing on the same flat surface why does the sun appear to be in different positions?

It's not that I don't believe you but get back to us once you've scanned and shown us your phone bill and the record of such a call (the morning of September 16, 2009) appears. For the sake of privacy black our your friend's telephone number.  We prefer to verify such claims.

It's not that I don't believe you but get back to us once you've scanned and shown us your phone bill and the record of such a call (the morning of September 16, 2009) appears. For the sake of privacy black our your friend's telephone number.  We prefer to verify such claims.

Looks to me like you're trying to evade answering my question. I didn't specify in my original message which day of the year I had made this phone call. If you know anyone who lives a few hundred miles east or west of you I suggest you call them up and ask where the sun is in the sky to see for yourself that at the same time of day the sun can be in two different positions depending on your position on the Earth.

I'll make it even easier for you. Here is a traffic cam from Vancouver: http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/streets/roadwork/BurrardCornwall4.htm , and here is a traffic cam from Toronto http://www.toronto.ca/rescu/loc20.htm . You can see for yourself that the sun rises in Toronto two hours before it does in Vancouver.

Do Flat Earthers have an explanation for this?

Form the FAQ:

Q: "What about time zones?"

A: The sun is a spotlight which shines light on a concentrated area, so not everywhere on Earth will be lit at once. Times zones exist so that everyone's clock will be at 12:00 around the time the sun is approximately directly overhead.

Form the FAQ:

Q: "What about time zones?"

A: The sun is a spotlight which shines light on a concentrated area, so not everywhere on Earth will be lit at once. Times zones exist so that everyone's clock will be at 12:00 around the time the sun is approximately directly overhead.

I've never seen a spotlight which can be in two places at once. The spotlight explanation could "explain" why at different times of the day different parts of the earth get more or less light, but I'm asking why the sun can appear to be in more than one POSITION when observed by different people on a flat earth?

For that matter the moon/stars/planets can be above or below the horizon at the same time of day on different parts of the Earth. Saying "They're spotlights" doesn't explain this.

Quote from: Mrs. Peach on September 16, 2009, 04:51:34 PM

Form the FAQ:

Q: "What about time zones?"

A: The sun is a spotlight which shines light on a concentrated area, so not everywhere on Earth will be lit at once. Times zones exist so that everyone's clock will be at 12:00 around the time the sun is approximately directly overhead.

I've never seen a spotlight which can be in two places at once. The spotlight explanation could "explain" why at different times of the day different parts of the earth get more or less light, but I'm asking why the sun can appear to be in more than one POSITION when observed by different people on a flat earth?

Okay, I hope I can describe this adequately because I DON'T do diagrams.  But imagine you and your friend are standing, say, fifty feet across.  A miniature spotlight sun is directly over your friend's head.  Where is it in relation to you?

Because for him it was right overhead (or near it), whereas you were only seeing the very tip of it.

[/quote]

Okay, I hope I can describe this adequately because I DON'T do diagrams.  But imagine you and your friend are standing, say, fifty feet across.  A miniature spotlight sun is directly over your friend's head.  Where is it in relation to you?

[/quote]


What you're talking about is parallax. If the sun were very close to theEearth and the earth were flat when it is directly overhead of the eastern edge of the planet it would not appear to be directly overhead of the western edge. The thing is that compared to the width of the earth the sun is really really far away so the parallax shift is too small to notice. This means that on a flat earth the sun will appear to be directly overhead of both sides.

What I'm trying to have answered specifically is how the Flat Earthers account for different sunrise times at different longitudes. If the earth is flat then once the sun rises up above the horizon on the East side of North America there should be nothing to get in the way and stop me from seeing the sunrise at the same time on the west coast. If the sun is a spotlight which only illuminates different parts of the Earth at different times then when the sun appears each morning it should be up in the sky not on the horizon since if it is just beginning to move above the plane of the flat earth my friends on the east coast shouldn't have had two hours of sunlight already.

What you're talking about is parallax. If the sun were very close to theEearth and the earth were flat when it is directly overhead of the eastern edge of the planet it would not appear to be directly overhead of the western edge. The thing is that compared to the width of the earth the sun is really really far away so the parallax shift is too small to notice. This means that on a flat earth the sun will appear to be directly overhead of both sides.

The sun is both much smaller and much closer in FET.  Please read the FAQ.

Quote from: kramerr on September 16, 2009, 07:56:27 PM

What you're talking about is parallax. If the sun were very close to theEearth and the earth were flat when it is directly overhead of the eastern edge of the planet it would not appear to be directly overhead of the western edge. The thing is that compared to the width of the earth the sun is really really far away so the parallax shift is too small to notice. This means that on a flat earth the sun will appear to be directly overhead of both sides.

The sun is both much smaller and much closer in FET.  Please read the FAQ.

It doesn't matter how small and how close to the Sun is in your Flat Earth model. I have placed a lamp under my flat kitchen table then slowly raised it up. When it became higher than the edge of the table it lit up the entire table.  If the Earth is flat there should be only one horizon which the sun rises and falls behind only once each day, so how is it that different people witness the sun rising over this one horizon at different times of the day depending on their position?

Even if the sun were a "spotlight" it would need to be a ball to be seen from two areas at once at different points.  If directly overhead it would appear to be a circle, but on the horizon then of the west coast it would appear more oblong shaped if it were indeed a disc "spotlight"

Even if the sun were a "spotlight" it would need to be a ball to be seen from two areas at once at different points.  If directly overhead it would appear to be a circle, but on the horizon then of the west coast it would appear more oblong shaped if it were indeed a disc "spotlight"

The sun is both a spotlight and a ball, depending on which question one asks a flat earther - jeez I would have thought that was obvious!

Here are a couple of issues. With a spot light sun how do you account for apparent curvature and maintain the same time with in longitudes. Several posts where pictures have been presented taken from high altitudes where a curvature can be seen, the standard FE response is that it is the curvature of the spot light (yes Tom this includes you). So from this it would be inferred that the edge of the spot light is round and not straight. If this is the case then how can a constant time be maintained in longitudes?

For there to be a spotlight sun it would have to be a disc and not a sphere. As the sun recedes then from a distance you would see an ellipse and not a round sun. Consider this, if you stand under an oyster light and look straight up you will see a circular shape. As you walk away from the oyster light, from you new perspective it would appear more elliptical. How can this FE perspective account for a spot light sun that does not change shape as the sun sets?

My main point is how can all of these FE concepts be maintained when each one counters another FET?

Atom Man, my personal belief is that the curvature you see is real - the real curved edge of the earth. Think about it. The earth isn't a square, but more like a circle, so when you look to the edge, it's going to look curved, because it is. The theory you mentioned is not the most prevalent one and personally I don't think it has much merit.

I just found it odd that a person should wake up one morning and be struck with a desire to prove the earth is a sphere.  Are we to believe that he then makes a phone call to the east coast and asks a friend to take a solar sighting.  He then decides to become a member of The Flat Earth Society to announce his findings.  I thought it unlikely that the phone call ever took place. Perhaps he can explain his own thought process a little better and I can erase my doubts.

I just found it odd that a person should wake up one morning and be struck with a desire to prove the earth is a sphere.  Are we to believe that he then makes a phone call to the east coast and asks a friend to take a solar sighting.  He then decides to become a member of The Flat Earth Society to announce his findings.  I thought it unlikely that the phone call ever took place. Perhaps he can explain his own thought process a little better and I can erase my doubts.

*shrugs* It's all largely irrelevant unless you can take issue with anything he said.

(Eg South America doesn't exist... the distance between the two is not 2000 miles... the time difference between the two is not...)

*shrugs* It's all largely irrelevant unless you can take issue with anything he said.

(Eg South America doesn't exist... the distance between the two is not 2000 miles... the time difference between the two is not...)

Okay, you think is his evidence is irrelevant.  At least we should give him a chance to explain.

Okay, you think is his evidence is irrelevant.  At least we should give him a chance to explain.

No. I think it's irrelevant whether the call actually took place. It's beyond question that someone on the west coast could place a call to someone on the east coast.

Atom Man, my personal belief is that the curvature you see is real - the real curved edge of the earth. Think about it. The earth isn't a square, but more like a circle, so when you look to the edge, it's going to look curved, because it is. The theory you mentioned is not the most prevalent one and personally I don't think it has much merit.

Could you clarify the curvature you are referring to. I take it you mean the edge of the disc. If this is the case then according to recent FE maps only people in the southern "hemisphere". I can see how your description could possibly apply to latitude curvature. I don't agree with your interpretation but I get your reasoning. I still fail to see how a spot light could maintain the same time in longitude if a curved spot light edge moves from east to west.

Think about this, if there were three people, one on the equator and the other two equal latitudes north and south. As the sun "rises" would each person see the sun rise at the same time or would the person on the equator see the sun rise first and the other two some time later?

Form the FAQ:

Q: "What about time zones?"

A: The sun is a spotlight which shines light on a concentrated area, so not everywhere on Earth will be lit at once. Times zones exist so that everyone's clock will be at 12:00 around the time the sun is approximately directly overhead.

Even if the earth is flat, how can the sun shine in one particular spot when it's 1,000,000 times larger than earth itself? Earth would need a rotation and to be a sphere so light hits different areas at different times.

Even if the earth is flat, how can the sun shine in one particular spot when it's 1,000,000 times larger than earth itself?

It's not.

Earth would need a rotation and to be a sphere so light hits different areas at different times

The sun is over different areas of the earth at different times.

Quote

Even if the earth is flat, how can the sun shine in one particular spot when it's 1,000,000 times larger than earth itself?

It's not.

Oh and you can prove this, can you Tom? If you can prove it without inferences drawn from the earth having to be flat, then I'll let you off. Otherwise, tune in next week for another episode of Bashing The Bishop.

Quote

Even if the earth is flat, how can the sun shine in one particular spot when it's 1,000,000 times larger than earth itself?

It's not.

Quote

Earth would need a rotation and to be a sphere so light hits different areas at different times

The sun is over different areas of the earth at different times.

The sun IS much larger than earth. If it was substantially smaller or larger than it is now, we wouldn't be here right now. The earth needs a rotation and HAS to be a sphere for seasonal changes, night and day changes, and for life to even exist.

You are correct, the sun is over different areas of the earth at different times from OUR point of view looking up towards the sky. However, looking at earth from SPACE, the earth rotates and revolves. This is has been proven so many times, I have yet to hear about someone going into space and seeing the earth stay still as a random flat disc with the sun moving around it.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on September 18, 2009, 10:07:45 AM

Quote

Even if the earth is flat, how can the sun shine in one particular spot when it's 1,000,000 times larger than earth itself?

It's not.

Oh and you can prove this, can you Tom? If you can prove it without inferences drawn from the earth having to be flat, then I'll let you off. Otherwise, tune in next week for another episode of Bashing The Bishop.

Do you have any proof of your size claim?

Quote from: Thermal Detonator on September 18, 2009, 10:10:09 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on September 18, 2009, 10:07:45 AM

Quote

Even if the earth is flat, how can the sun shine in one particular spot when it's 1,000,000 times larger than earth itself?

It's not.

Oh and you can prove this, can you Tom? If you can prove it without inferences drawn from the earth having to be flat, then I'll let you off. Otherwise, tune in next week for another episode of Bashing The Bishop.

Do you have any proof of your size claim?

There's much more evidence that the earth is a sphere than flat or disc or whatever you want to call it.

Quote from: Thermal Detonator on September 18, 2009, 10:10:09 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on September 18, 2009, 10:07:45 AM

Quote

Even if the earth is flat, how can the sun shine in one particular spot when it's 1,000,000 times larger than earth itself?

It's not.

Oh and you can prove this, can you Tom? If you can prove it without inferences drawn from the earth having to be flat, then I'll let you off. Otherwise, tune in next week for another episode of Bashing The Bishop.

Do you have any proof of your size claim?

I'm not claiming anything. So I don't need to prove anything.

The sun is over different areas of the earth at different times.

Can you please provide a FE map that shows where the spot light shines in a given point of time that maintains time zones and accounts for apparent perception of curvature?

Quote from: Tom Bishop on September 18, 2009, 10:07:45 AM

The sun is over different areas of the earth at different times.

Can you please provide a FE map that shows where the spot light shines in a given point of time that maintains time zones and accounts for apparent perception of curvature?

No, when asked for a map they always point to that one in the FAQ - and then when anyone pipes up with "hang on, why is that country a weird shape?" they counter it with saying that they're not actually maps, just a theoretical representation of what earth MIGHT look like if it was flat. So you are unlikely to get what you want. As far as I can tell there is no definitive map of a flat earth.

Quote from: Atom Man on September 19, 2009, 06:21:27 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on September 18, 2009, 10:07:45 AM

The sun is over different areas of the earth at different times.

Can you please provide a FE map that shows where the spot light shines in a given point of time that maintains time zones and accounts for apparent perception of curvature?

No, when asked for a map they always point to that one in the FAQ - and then when anyone pipes up with "hang on, why is that country a weird shape?" they counter it with saying that they're not actually maps, just a theoretical representation of what earth MIGHT look like if it was flat. So you are unlikely to get what you want. As far as I can tell there is no definitive map of a flat earth.

First of all, you must be more of a nerd than me with a name like Thermal Detonator.  But yes ain't that the truth. There is a definite Northern centric perspective of all the FEW maps I've seen. I recently found out that National Geographic set the standards for world maps. They are changing the current standards so that they will be less Euro centric and reduce the Greenland effect. Since Nat Geo is a privately funded organisation, either they are not part of the world government conspiracy or the leading instigators.

The other point that I would like to see addressed is, why is it that for hundreds of years a working RE map could be developed and used so extensively without modern equipment or technology and yet there is still no accurate FE map?

Since Nat Geo is a privately funded organisation, either they are not part of the world government conspiracy or the leading instigators.

Why couldn't a private agency be a member of the conspiracy?