The perfect god paradox.

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shades

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The perfect god paradox.
« on: September 14, 2009, 05:21:15 PM »
God is perfect and omnipotent, right? He is also omniscient. God created man. Man was not perfect. God intended for man to be perfect. If god really way perfect, man would be perfect. Man is not perfect, so god does not exist.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2009, 05:29:59 PM »
God intended for man to be perfect.

 ???
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Sean

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2009, 06:02:13 PM »
God gave man free will.
Quote from: sokarul
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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2009, 06:02:52 PM »
God intended for man to be perfect.
Wrong.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2009, 06:06:15 PM »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Sean

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2009, 06:17:22 PM »
God gave man free will.
Also wrong.

Kind of.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Quote from: sokarul
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Raist

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2009, 08:15:03 PM »
God is perfect and omnipotent, right? He is also omniscient. God created man. Man was not perfect. God intended for man to be perfect. If god really way perfect, man would be perfect. Man is not perfect, so god does not exist.

No he didn't.

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Proleg

Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2009, 08:30:58 PM »
Why would a perfect being have imperfect creations?

This is clearly the best of all possible worlds.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2009, 08:35:45 PM »
Why would a perfect being have imperfect creations?
God gets bored without conflict.

God gave man free will.
Also wrong.
Kind of.
You don't do so well on true-false tests do you?  :-\

Also, I find it funny that the Christian God has free will of his own and is perfect. Certainly this is proof the two can coexist?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 08:40:27 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Sean

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2009, 08:43:14 PM »
Okay, yes, in the bible it is stated we have free will.
Quote from: sokarul
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Proleg

Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2009, 09:14:55 PM »
The concept of free will, (in how it is generally accepted on these forums) is physically impossible in any structured system. God, being omnipotent, may transcend our logic, but what truthfully is free will?

The ability to do something with no logic or impulse behind it?
Why not ask your pastor?

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Parsifal

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2009, 09:18:07 PM »
God gets bored without conflict.

Why would a perfect being need entertainment?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2009, 09:35:26 PM »
God gets bored without conflict.

Why would a perfect being need entertainment?
Did I say he needed entertainment?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Parsifal

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2009, 09:56:52 PM »
Did I say he needed entertainment?

No, but boredom is generated by lack of entertainment.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2009, 10:05:40 PM »
No, but boredom is generated by lack of entertainment.
I agree...
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Parsifal

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2009, 10:07:04 PM »
I agree...

Then surely a perfect being would not get bored, for it would not want for entertainment?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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optimisticcynic

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2009, 10:09:09 PM »
to be fair who are we to decide what the perfect being does. if someone is perfect does something that doesn't seem perfect the error must be on the other end.
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Pongo

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2009, 10:46:49 PM »
This whole "God is perfect" thing is rubbish and I will attempt to explain why.  Perfection is subjective.  For example, the perfect evening differs from person to person.  One might include dancing, while another may require liquor.  This is true for everything.  Thus, why there is nothing in existence can be agreed by everyone to be perfect.

Now, how this applies to a deity if twofold.  One person saying God (judeo-christian) is perfect, is false because not everyone may see it that way.  So, even if you happen to think God is perfect, the truth is much different because that is only your subjective opinion and opinions don't make facts.

The other half is the assertion that God is inherently perfect; a quality of being God.  This is labeling God with a subjective adjective, it's like saying God is funny (or more correctly, the funniest).  By whose standards is God the funniest or perfect?  If God does exist as a supremely powerful being who exists outside, but not constrained by, the laws of the physical world including time and space, as a fickle arbiter who plays favorites and kills wantonly with the callous and random touch as it's portrayed and preached, then surely we aren't able to label perfection; being burdened by the laws of physics and hampered by humane feelings. 

As a fact, God cannot be stated as perfect, nor can it be a quality inherent in itself as seen by us. 

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2009, 10:53:12 PM »
Then surely a perfect being would not get bored, for it would not want for entertainment?
Why would we assume it doesn't want entertainment?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2009, 10:36:17 AM »
God is perfect and omnipotent, right? He is also omniscient. God created man. Man was not perfect. God intended for man to be perfect. If god really way perfect, man would be perfect. Man is not perfect, so god does not exist.

I would say that only concludes that if there is a God, he is not perfect.  Perfection would imply that there is no room for improvement.  I'm not sure if you could apply that attribute to anything.

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shades

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2009, 01:20:00 PM »
God is perfect and omnipotent, right? He is also omniscient. God created man. Man was not perfect. God intended for man to be perfect. If god really way perfect, man would be perfect. Man is not perfect, so god does not exist.

I would say that only concludes that if there is a God, he is not perfect.  Perfection would imply that there is no room for improvement.  I'm not sure if you could apply that attribute to anything.

I agree with you, but that means the bible is wrong.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2009, 01:21:28 PM »
God is perfect and omnipotent, right? He is also omniscient. God created man. Man was not perfect. God intended for man to be perfect. If god really way perfect, man would be perfect. Man is not perfect, so god does not exist.

I would say that only concludes that if there is a God, he is not perfect.  Perfection would imply that there is no room for improvement.  I'm not sure if you could apply that attribute to anything.

I agree with you, but that means the bible is wrong.

The Bible has been known to be wrong about many things for hundreds of years.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2009, 04:42:23 PM »
the bible is wrong.

Hey, it's Captain Obvious!
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loki700

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2009, 07:26:05 PM »
To quote the philosopher Epicurus, as i think this was the op's actual intent, "Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?  Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God??

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2009, 07:33:30 PM »
To quote the philosopher Epicurus, as i think this was the op's actual intent, "Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?  Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God??

Because he created the universe.  Why not call him God?  ???
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Proleg

Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2009, 07:34:29 PM »
To quote the philosopher Epicurus, as i think this was the op's actual intent, "Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?  Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God??
Because that's His name. Durr.

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loki700

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2009, 07:51:17 PM »
To quote the philosopher Epicurus, as i think this was the op's actual intent, "Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?  Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God??

Because he created the universe.  Why not call him God?  ???
I think you're misunderstanding, he is saying that if god is neither able nor willing to prevent evil then why call him god.  I was simply quoting a philosopher to aid the original poster, as i think that it accurately reflects what he was trying to get across.  I have to admit though, if god was neither able nor willing then i wouldn't call him god.  Then again i don't believe in god, but that has nothing to do with the quote as i'm not saying it's proof that god doesn't exist.

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Raist

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2009, 08:00:20 PM »
Again, until you prove that an event was evil that is a pointless statement.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2009, 08:29:24 PM »
Why would good and evil be meaningful concepts to the creator of the universe?  From his point of view I would expect human conflict is no different than a planet being consumed by a star or a spider consuming a fly.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Re: The perfect god paradox.
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2009, 12:42:53 AM »
Again, until you prove that an event was evil that is a pointless statement.

How does one prove an event "evil"? Does it have to follow a religious connotation? The word evil is synonymous with 'sinful', but can't we just steal it and say it means morally 'fucked'?

Saying something like, "saying the holocaust was an evil event is a subjective statement" would be morally 'fucked'. 
The obvious flaw is that it's completely contrary to observation, and totally preposterous to even hypothesise about.