you don't need to have a something that is made for any specific input. you are saying that pain is a motivator that gets the mind to do something based on this. I am saying that without souls although you could use sensation to describe why something does something it is not at accurate idea of what should be expected even if it models what happens well.
What
should be expected? Sensation could be perceived a number of ways we can't imagine but if this is the way are brains perceive sensation then to say it is an odd outcome is using its own significance as its a detriment to its probability of arising. I remember that trekky posted a thread at some point declaring that he was lucky because he turned over certain cards or rolled certain numbers on dice in a certain order. For instance, the chances of rolling a specific order of specific numbers is extremely low, but because it already happened we look at those chances for only that possibility and not the competing scenarios of something else seeming significant. Any other perception would be that same unlikely perception. I see pain the way we feel match all the physical ties it needs to and the interpretation of it is irrelevant for perceiving it one way or another.
A different brain structure very well might perceive pain differently but still use the concept as a link to 'bad'.
to say that you should expect a system to want to avoid pain is acting as though the system wants.
I expect the system to avoid pain because it is an evolutionary imperative to develop that way. It's hardwired like any instincts. Pain equals bad is not a choice, but a mandatory interpretation of sense data.
a system should be able to act in a way that benefits itself. that is the way new systems are made. but saying it wants is like saying that a ball wants to roll down a hill. it doesn't want to, it just rolls based on the forces acting upon it.
The ball isn't conscious, nor capable of making decisions, nor capable of acting. Wants are just the system's goals that are assigned to it by experience and genetics.
again I say that the idea of what pain is is understandable. it is a system designed to minimize it(I use designed even through the laws of probability most like caused it to be.). to say you need an awareness is to be honest silly.
Awareness is holding knowledge of the outside world and whether you are a computer program modeling your best options based on that data or a computer program that thinks it has a soul and is modeling options based on that data, you still need the data. Any action reaction system needs that data to react.
even if you were right all awareness would be is a system that reacts. to say that it couldn't react to all situations without being designed to fit it goes against your own argument that is what we would be. a system just complex.
I'm saying that by creating categories of perception we can reduce infinite possibilities of input. A calculator The hardware is specific to one function. A human is unlimited in functions as far as hardware goes so the software must be responsible for mental analysis above and beyond a calculator.
To clarify something I let go earlier, I don't believe complexity of the brain implies anything new as far as consciousness goes, but that consciousness implies a certain level of complexity.
second could we get some more people in on this argument? I think it needs some new blood. preferably so more on both sides would be nice.
Agreed. I wish that it were possible to clear up miscommunications, as I often feel like I don't present the clearest posts that could represent my argument. Other people posting often help me see how I'm coming off enough where I can patch together the picture I try to paint. I actually see we are following an unproductive cycle as long as we can't establish the disconnects on the other side.
I'm also considering a new approach. We might be able to simplify this as much as possible by starting with definitions...
I take awareness to mean receiving sense data so that it may be acted on. Anything to add or dispute?