Souls?

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Wendy

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Souls?
« on: August 24, 2009, 02:44:11 PM »
Does anyone believe in souls? What is a soul, really? What decides whether you have one or not? How is it connected to your faith?

I ran across a video on youtube on the subject.

Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2009, 06:24:33 PM »
Well, I don't believe in the soul. Maybe a consciousness, but not a soul.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Nomad

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2009, 08:31:02 PM »
This just makes me miss Erasmus.  His thread about qualia was awesome and very relevant to this thread, and it died too quickly.

I do not believe in the supernatural entity known as the "soul."  However I do think that what we attribute to being our soul is the sum of our qualia.  The culmination of all our memories and experiences that make us who we are.  But really, if you want to call that a soul, that's fine with me.
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2009, 08:35:39 PM »
I don't believe in anything in which there is no supporting evidence; something that has yet to be defined cannot be supported.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Pongo

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2009, 10:49:04 PM »
The idea that the human consciousness survives the decaying process of the brain after death is extremely unlikely.

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Parsifal

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2009, 11:17:01 PM »
The soul is a useful metaphor for describing our sense of identity.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2009, 11:23:01 PM »
The soul is a useful metaphor for describing our sense of identity.
Or vice versa...
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2009, 01:04:21 AM »
This just makes me miss Erasmus.  His thread about qualia was awesome and very relevant to this thread, and it died too quickly.

I do not believe in the supernatural entity known as the "soul."  However I do think that what we attribute to being our soul is the sum of our qualia.  The culmination of all our memories and experiences that make us who we are.  But really, if you want to call that a soul, that's fine with me.

I'll go with that.

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optimisticcynic

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2009, 10:21:20 AM »
The idea that the human consciousness survives the decaying process of the brain after death is extremely unlikely.
I would go more with the Buddhist idea of a soul.
You can't outrun death forever
But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2009, 10:42:36 AM »
Much like supernatural being debate, need a consensus definition before anything can be established.
Our existentialist, relativist, nihilist, determinist, fascist, eugenicist moderator hath returned.
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semperround

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2009, 11:03:13 AM »
i'd like to believe in souls, but i'm not sure. i guess i'll find out when i die.
an vir

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Soze

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2009, 02:16:18 PM »
i'd like to believe in souls, but i'm not sure. i guess i'll find out when i die.
Nobody can be sure, yet people do believe in souls just because they'd like to.

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Blanko

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2009, 01:30:49 PM »
i'd like to believe in souls, but i'm not sure. i guess i'll find out when i die.
That's how religion should work but those mean bastards keep telling me that I'm going to hell.

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Soze

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2009, 01:36:29 PM »
i'd like to believe in souls, but i'm not sure. i guess i'll find out when i die.
That's how religion should work but those mean bastards keep telling me that I'm going to hell.
Humans can't and don't know anything about the supernatural, and that includes clergymen. The only difference is that they are absolutely convinced of their baseless beliefs and they can get people to believe they are authorities.

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Lord Sabrewolf

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2009, 03:37:54 PM »
What is the mind? I doubt this will ever be answered in my lifetime and we have a fairly good understanding of how the brain works as a whole already. We don't even have a clear definition of a soul so how can we debate what it is?

For me, my soul is a tiny little thing deep in the back of my mind which is me

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2009, 03:51:04 PM »
For me, my soul is a tiny little thing deep in the back of my mind which is me
lol, wut?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Masterchef

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2009, 05:03:05 PM »
For me, my soul is a tiny little thing deep in the back of my mind which is me
I, too, have a miniature version of myself lodged in my brain.

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Metalrocks

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2009, 03:04:38 PM »
For me, my soul is a tiny little thing deep in the back of my mind which is me
I, too, have a miniature version of myself lodged in my brain.

They can give you drugs for that.

But staying on topic: I believe the idea of a soul just came from humans evolveing and finding the need to identify themselves once becomeing self-aware.
The Sept.11 hijackers heard gods word too.

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optimisticcynic

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2009, 05:10:46 PM »
this argument seemed to fit more in this area.

I see no reason why I shouldn't think that software in hardware that knows the truth that it is software in hardware, wouldn't be self aware. What more to self awareness is there then knowing about one's own physical existence?

That's the very question I am saying we cannot answer. I see no reason why consciousness should follow directly from processing information about oneself.

Why would either freewill or self awareness require the other?

I didn't say they would, all I said was that once we find an explanation for self-awareness, there's a chance it may also allow for free will, which is why I don't rule it out entirely even though I consider it unlikely.

When I say aware of things, I'm talking about what input it is built to be sensitive to and act upon even if it doesn't have proper context.

Well, I suppose that is awareness, but it's not the sort of awareness I am expressing bewilderment towards. When I say that something is aware, in the context of this discussion, I mean that it is actually conscious of what it is doing, as opposed to the stimuli simply triggering responses.

I consider awareness to be a continuum, and only being aware of electrical signals is very limited consciousness. If it understood what they were, what they meant, etc. it would be more conscious because it can give it context. We humans just have more information about what input we take in and that our minds are processing the data. We the software, know about the existence and basic processes of the software. A calculator doesn't have any context to its input. Similarly, it doesn't have any knowledge of itself, and doesn't have any sensory devices or neural pathways to become aware of itself.

I think we are talking about different things. I don't see how consciousness (which is the sense in which I am speaking of "awareness") can be a continuum; either we are conscious of our surroundings, or we are not. Of course, there are certain states - such as sleep - in which we are aware of less than at other times, but we are still sentient beings all the while. As far as I'm concerned, the amount of sensory input processed and the phenomenon of sentience need not correlate. You could, at least in theory, have an isolated system which is sentient - conversely, you could have a machine hooked up to every kind of input device imaginable that does nothing but relay the data to where it needs to go.

Does a robot not have the sensation of awareness?

We have no way of knowing.

I'd say that being consciousness of information is having a better understanding of the information and its context.
Subconscious processing is just lower levels of processing that the mind software found in the processes isn't built to interpret or explore itself. Same way a calculator can process data without having or needing knowledge that it is processing. If it could see its own background processes, it would be much more self aware.

Our brains can only handle self thought so much considering the limits of efficiency on the brain. If every neuron on its own was able to think about a single neuron, then no processes of the brain would ever be hidden.

Also, by dedicating processes of the brain that are built specifically for other functions by not thinking about those things in the here and now, we should be able to reach into our subconscious thoughts. Hypnotism does just that.

Yes, but the point is that we are not necessarily aware of every piece of information we process, and therefore sentience is not a direct consequence of information processing. However, I do find the part of your post that I bolded very interesting, and will give that matter some thought.




@ soze. how much different reactions does there have to be for there to be an awareness. if there is a scientific reason there should be a number. do you need a system to have 1000 parts then bam it has a awareness. also a new property shouldn't just pop out when you add more of the same together. that would be like if I double the amount of steel I have it all of the sudden now is yellow. although this argument does not prove free will it does imply that there is more then just action reaction in the brain.
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Jeffs

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2009, 04:27:27 AM »
I think we are talking about different things. I don't see how consciousness (which is the sense in which I am speaking of "awareness") can be a continuum; either we are conscious of our surroundings, or we are not. Of course, there are certain states - such as sleep - in which we are aware of less than at other times, but we are still sentient beings all the while.

How could you think that conciousness isn't variable? Let's stick with your definition of it being awareness of your surroundings. If we're always fully aware of our surroundings then why do we trip, slip, forget car keys, put our shirts on inside-out, leave buildings with the wrong coat or do all the other stupid things which annoy us daily? Why are we more likely to do these things in the mornings or when we're tired? Why do subliminal messages rarely get detected by us but at the same time effect our shopping habits? Are you never tricked by optical illusions?


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optimisticcynic

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2009, 09:22:39 AM »
I think we are talking about different things. I don't see how consciousness (which is the sense in which I am speaking of "awareness") can be a continuum; either we are conscious of our surroundings, or we are not. Of course, there are certain states - such as sleep - in which we are aware of less than at other times, but we are still sentient beings all the while.

How could you think that conciousness isn't variable? Let's stick with your definition of it being awareness of your surroundings. If we're always fully aware of our surroundings then why do we trip, slip, forget car keys, put our shirts on inside-out, leave buildings with the wrong coat or do all the other stupid things which annoy us daily? Why are we more likely to do these things in the mornings or when we're tired? Why do subliminal messages rarely get detected by us but at the same time effect our shopping habits? Are you never tricked by optical illusions?

I think you miss understand what robosteves argument. he is thinking of awareness different then you are. I will try to do this argument but will use slightly different terms. A computer can react to sight through use of a camera. but can it actually have the sensation of sight. now you may say that you need to have sensation in order to react but that doesn't really hold true. a domino doesn't need to feel someone push it to fall. now with a computer it is a lot more complicated but that doesn't mean that we should assume it is any more then action reaction. there is no reason for there to be sensation of these actions. yet we have them. you may say that is because we are more complicated but why would adding more parts to a system suddenly cause sensation. hmm there are 1024214 parts to this system, oh that is one less then is needed for sensation. there should be a point were sensation suddenly forms and there should be a reason.
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2009, 10:19:42 AM »
I think you miss understand what robosteves argument. he is thinking of awareness different then you are. I will try to do this argument but will use slightly different terms. A computer can react to sight through use of a camera. but can it actually have the sensation of sight.
A computer has to interpret the data from the camera/sensor, and that interpretation of sense stimulation would presumably be the sensation.
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Parsifal

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2009, 10:20:28 AM »
A computer has to interpret the data from the camera/sensor, and that interpretation of sense stimulation would presumably be the sensation.

What about that interpretation causes the sensation?
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2009, 10:22:32 AM »
A computer has to interpret the data from the camera/sensor, and that interpretation of sense stimulation would presumably be the sensation.

What about that interpretation causes the sensation?
Sensation is the processing of the senses.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Parsifal

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2009, 10:26:16 AM »
Sensation is the processing of the senses.

That seems to be Soze's viewpoint, too. I don't see why the two are necessarily related, let alone synonymous.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2009, 10:29:56 AM »
Sensation is the processing of the senses.
That seems to be Soze's viewpoint, too. I don't see why the two are necessarily related, let alone synonymous.
Yeah, I'm surprised she left. This stuff is juicy.

If you weren't processing senses, could you have sensation? I only think of them so connected because I haven't seen a reason to divide them. Sensing pain is a sensation in my book.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 10:31:48 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
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Parsifal

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2009, 10:32:01 AM »
Yeah, I'm surprised she left. This stuff is juicy.

Did she leave, or is she just on one of her unexplained extended vacations from FES?

If you weren't processing senses, could you have sensation?

Yes.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2009, 10:34:33 AM »
Did she leave, or is she just on one of her unexplained extended vacations from FES?
No clue.

If you weren't processing senses, could you have sensation?
Yes.
Can you elaborate on why or how?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Parsifal

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2009, 10:36:24 AM »
Can you elaborate on why or how?

How would the brain distinguish between neural signals from sensory input and subconsciously self-generated signals?
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Jeffs

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Re: Souls?
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2009, 10:44:12 AM »
I think we are talking about different things. I don't see how consciousness (which is the sense in which I am speaking of "awareness") can be a continuum; either we are conscious of our surroundings, or we are not. Of course, there are certain states - such as sleep - in which we are aware of less than at other times, but we are still sentient beings all the while.

How could you think that conciousness isn't variable? Let's stick with your definition of it being awareness of your surroundings. If we're always fully aware of our surroundings then why do we trip, slip, forget car keys, put our shirts on inside-out, leave buildings with the wrong coat or do all the other stupid things which annoy us daily? Why are we more likely to do these things in the mornings or when we're tired? Why do subliminal messages rarely get detected by us but at the same time effect our shopping habits? Are you never tricked by optical illusions?

I think you miss understand what robosteves argument. he is thinking of awareness different then you are. I will try to do this argument but will use slightly different terms. A computer can react to sight through use of a camera. but can it actually have the sensation of sight. now you may say that you need to have sensation in order to react but that doesn't really hold true. a domino doesn't need to feel someone push it to fall. now with a computer it is a lot more complicated but that doesn't mean that we should assume it is any more then action reaction. there is no reason for there to be sensation of these actions. yet we have them. you may say that is because we are more complicated but why would adding more parts to a system suddenly cause sensation. hmm there are 1024214 parts to this system, oh that is one less then is needed for sensation. there should be a point were sensation suddenly forms and there should be a reason.

That's because we're not drawing a line between instinctive behaviour and intelligent behaviour. When I'm looking at any system which produces intelligent-like behaviour I categorise the system into those two groups. Instinctive behaviour is automatic hard wiring which you may instantly attribute to the way computers conventionally work but this also applies to all animals. Insects are pretty much fully instinctive, this means when an ant picks up a leaf and walks towards its nest it doesn't stop to think about why, the insect may not be completely unaware of its actions but we can be certain that it's not necessary for the insect to be aware at all of what it's doing in order for it to do it. All animals can be found to display instinctive behaviour under certain circumstances, a quick demonstration of this can be found by poking your own eye. Even if you manage to poke your eye without flinching or blinking you'll soon be gifted an uncontrollable delivery of tears in order to clean the eye.

The point about instinct is it can portray intelligent behaviour such as squirrels burying their acorns for the winter but in reality the squirrel doesn't plan ahead and decide to save its food for later just like we don't plan our heart rates. Instinctive behaviour has nothing to do with consciousness and no computer or robot to this day (as far as I'm aware) can produce any behaviour that isn't instinctive.

However, instinctive behaviour isn't enough to produce the sophisticated behaviour that humans and a good proportion of other animals display regularly. We know that we aren't fully instinctive beings because we work from a simulated environment which grants us a form of what we call consciousness. What I mean by that is what we see isn't necessarily reality, it's actually a simulated environment which is built by our brains using the information from our eyes and other sensors so that we can make decisions by interacting with this simulation. The origin of this part of our brains (the simulator and the simulated, if you will) obviously isn't fully understood but there's no reason to believe that it cannot eventually be explained by neural scientists.

So this simulator and simulated relationship is what I categorise as actual intelligent behaviour and indeed I may have been unfair to pick out points from robosteve as it seems their discussion was more to the topic of splitting the two categories apart. Having said that though I stick to the point I made and I'd like to repeat what I was trying to say which is actual intelligent behaviour is variable and the awareness that comes from it as a result is variable.


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