the sun

Again, it's not mine, the Sun is for everyone.

Again, it's not mine, the Sun is for everyone.

But my sun isn't bio-luminescent.

I'm sure the source of this bio-luminescence will remain a mystery James, but it does seem to produce a lot more heat than earth bound bio-luminescent sources do. On ewonders what the food source is for the 'bio' bits to continue to produce their luminescence. 

Light bulbs produce more heat than light as they actually emit more infrared radiation than visible from their element. Not all light sources emit a wide spectrum - LEDs emit a very narrow band of wavelengths so there is more light than heat produced.
The amount of energy emitted by bioluminescent organisms living on the Sun has to be less than or equal to the amount they are taking in from somewhere, and until an explanation of where they are taking it in from is supplied, there is no evidence whatsoever for bioluminescence as a source of light from the Sun. Furthermore, bioluminsecence is produced by a chemical reaction and is generally light that is emitted in narrow wavelength bands, due to the way electrons jump up and down in their energy levels (simplified explanation but never mind). The Sun produces a massively wide band of wavelengths, from x-ray level down to radio waves. There is no known way any form of bioluminescence could do this.

I still don't understand the feasibility of the "bio" part. Is it a single organism or many? How can bioluminescence be seen from so far away? How do the organism(s) survive?

Quote from: W on August 23, 2009, 01:55:57 AM

Quote from: Squat on August 22, 2009, 11:32:48 PM

Quote from: James on August 22, 2009, 10:46:51 PM

As I have already stated (or at the very least heavily implied), the outer surface of the Sun is alive, and possessing of bioluminescent properties, which is the source of its light.

What is the source of the heat we feel from 'your' bio-luminescent sun?

The light... I think light naturally results in heat. Even when you hold your hand up to a light bulb it feels warm.

Really?

A light bulb isn't exactly bio-luminescent is it. You do know what bio-luminescence is, yes?

Wow, you're a rude person.

Yes, I KNOW a light bulb isn't bio-luminescent. That's the point. EVEN a light bulb feels warm when you hold your hand up to it, and it's artificial light, so imagine what kind of heat the sun could give off. (Oh wait, you don't need to... just go outside!)

Quote from: W on August 23, 2009, 01:55:57 AM

Quote from: Squat on August 22, 2009, 11:32:48 PM

Quote from: James on August 22, 2009, 10:46:51 PM

As I have already stated (or at the very least heavily implied), the outer surface of the Sun is alive, and possessing of bioluminescent properties, which is the source of its light.

What is the source of the heat we feel from 'your' bio-luminescent sun?

The light... I think light naturally results in heat. Even when you hold your hand up to a light bulb it feels warm.

I'm sure you know the heat doesn't come from the light but from the bulb that heats up inside, yes?

Okay, but light bulbs are clearly a recreation of a naturally occurring phenomena - the sun. Which in its own way, as I've described before, is not alone.

Except light bulbs aren't a recreation of the Sun any more than an aeroplane is a recreation of a bat. The sun does not have a filament with electricity going through it - or do you think it does?

Aren't there some autotrophic single celled organisms that live on the ocean floor and produce food from the heat in hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor? What if the sun had an energy source inside of it that produced heat, and the bio-luminescent organisms on the surface survived and reproduced by using this heat energy to produce food?

Aren't there some autotrophic single celled organisms that live on the ocean floor and produce food from the heat in hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor? What if the sun had an energy source inside of it that produced heat, and the bio-luminescent organisms on the surface survived and reproduced by using this heat energy to produce food?

That is a good hypothesis were it not for the fact that it does not explain where all the heat is coming from, and that the heat involved would be in the thousands of degrees magnitude which might be a little extreme for life as we know it. Though not neccessarily impossible for unknown forms of life. But still, what is generating the heat?

Aren't there some autotrophic single celled organisms that live on the ocean floor and produce food from the heat in hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor? What if the sun had an energy source inside of it that produced heat, and the bio-luminescent organisms on the surface survived and reproduced by using this heat energy to produce food?

And you could see this from at least 3000 miles away? Even in pitch-black, how far can you see any bioluminescence, single-celled or multi-celled, simple or complex? Are you implying that these organisms can survive the vacuum of space or there's an atmosphere? What else are the organisms living on? Most of the organisms that you are referring to live in a high-sulfur environment and are fairly simple.

Even if I was completely ignorant of most things, I would say that this is a very tall order.

Quote from: taters343 on August 23, 2009, 12:53:12 PM

Aren't there some autotrophic single celled organisms that live on the ocean floor and produce food from the heat in hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor? What if the sun had an energy source inside of it that produced heat, and the bio-luminescent organisms on the surface survived and reproduced by using this heat energy to produce food?

And you could see this from at least 3000 miles away? Even in pitch-black, how far can you see any bioluminescence, single-celled or multi-celled, simple or complex? Are you implying that these organisms can survive the vacuum of space or there's an atmosphere? What else are the organisms living on? Most of the organisms that you are referring to live in a high-sulfur environment and are fairly simple.

Even if I was completely ignorant of most things, I would say that this is a very tall order.

Apart from the question of where the massive heat is coming from, there's very few holes in the hypothesis as long as you don't make assumptions based on earthly fauna and flora.

Quote from: taters343 on August 23, 2009, 12:53:12 PM

Aren't there some autotrophic single celled organisms that live on the ocean floor and produce food from the heat in hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor? What if the sun had an energy source inside of it that produced heat, and the bio-luminescent organisms on the surface survived and reproduced by using this heat energy to produce food?

And you could see this from at least 3000 miles away? Even in pitch-black, how far can you see any bioluminescence, single-celled or multi-celled, simple or complex? Are you implying that these organisms can survive the vacuum of space or there's an atmosphere? What else are the organisms living on? Most of the organisms that you are referring to live in a high-sulfur environment and are fairly simple.

Even if I was completely ignorant of most things, I would say that this is a very tall order.

I was asking a question. I wasn't actually sure if I was right about the hydrothermal vents. I have only taking 1 year of biology so far and slept through most of that, so I was being general in hopes that if it was remotely possible people could help develop the hypothesis.

Quote from: Anduie on August 23, 2009, 01:02:35 PM

Quote from: taters343 on August 23, 2009, 12:53:12 PM

Aren't there some autotrophic single celled organisms that live on the ocean floor and produce food from the heat in hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor? What if the sun had an energy source inside of it that produced heat, and the bio-luminescent organisms on the surface survived and reproduced by using this heat energy to produce food?

And you could see this from at least 3000 miles away? Even in pitch-black, how far can you see any bioluminescence, single-celled or multi-celled, simple or complex? Are you implying that these organisms can survive the vacuum of space or there's an atmosphere? What else are the organisms living on? Most of the organisms that you are referring to live in a high-sulfur environment and are fairly simple.

Even if I was completely ignorant of most things, I would say that this is a very tall order.

I was asking a question. I wasn't actually sure if I was right about the hydrothermal vents. I have only taking 1 year of biology so far and slept through most of that, so I was being general in hopes that if it was remotely possible people could help develop the hypothesis.

And I said that there were, but it flies in the face of what is feasible.

You can not develop a hypothesis from this as what it would rely on is astronomical ignorance unless you can show that the required conditions for such are met that would allow ANY organisms to exist in this environment.

Quote from: taters343 on August 23, 2009, 01:06:10 PM

Quote from: Anduie on August 23, 2009, 01:02:35 PM

Quote from: taters343 on August 23, 2009, 12:53:12 PM

Aren't there some autotrophic single celled organisms that live on the ocean floor and produce food from the heat in hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor? What if the sun had an energy source inside of it that produced heat, and the bio-luminescent organisms on the surface survived and reproduced by using this heat energy to produce food?

And you could see this from at least 3000 miles away? Even in pitch-black, how far can you see any bioluminescence, single-celled or multi-celled, simple or complex? Are you implying that these organisms can survive the vacuum of space or there's an atmosphere? What else are the organisms living on? Most of the organisms that you are referring to live in a high-sulfur environment and are fairly simple.

Even if I was completely ignorant of most things, I would say that this is a very tall order.

I was asking a question. I wasn't actually sure if I was right about the hydrothermal vents. I have only taking 1 year of biology so far and slept through most of that, so I was being general in hopes that if it was remotely possible people could help develop the hypothesis.

And I said that there were, but it flies in the face of what is feasible.

You can not develop a hypothesis from this as what it would rely on is astronomical ignorance unless you can show that the required conditions for such are met that would allow ANY organisms to exist in this environment.

Which is what would be done during the development of the hypothesis...

Apart from the question of where the massive heat is coming from, there's very few holes in the hypothesis as long as you don't make assumptions based on earthly fauna and flora.

I just want to ask a question- when you say 'massive heat', are you thinking of the Sun in terms of RET? Maybe I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here, but you seem to be suggesting that the James' hypothesised Sun would produce the same kind of temperature as the Sun hypothesised in RET.

You forget that a disc 32 miles across at a distance of 3000 miles would need to produce as much heat and light as a sphere 865,370 miles across at a distance of 93,000,000 miles. This means that yes, it would need to be producing a massive amount of heat. It's much smaller in the flat earth model so it needs to have a very high amount of light/heat produced per unit area.

Quote from: Anduie on August 23, 2009, 01:17:19 PM

And I said that there were, but it flies in the face of what is feasible.

You can not develop a hypothesis from this as what it would rely on is astronomical ignorance unless you can show that the required conditions for such are met that would allow ANY organisms to exist in this environment.

Which is what would be done during the development of the hypothesis...

Okay, I'm a doubter. Can you give me something that is feasible? I mean, that's an open question.

You have the following issues to deal with:

1. EXTREME heat
2. No nutrients that are known
3. Goes beyond known bioluminescent capabilities several thousand-fold
4. Is there an atmosphere?
5. If this dark energy is pushing light up from the Earth, how would it be possible?
6. What parameters would cause the sun to "burn out" since this seems to imply that the bottom surface of the sun is at the physical capacity limit
7. K or R selective organisms?
8. How would an atmosphere work under the conditions of the universe as I understand it as you understand it?
9. Do you have any supporting literature?
10. Does this explain deuterium associated with solar radiation?
11. Does this explain some communication disruptions during flares?
12. Why would these be bioluminescent?
13. Predators?

Many, many other questions, but that should help you out.

Quote from: taters343 on August 23, 2009, 01:18:34 PM

Quote from: Anduie on August 23, 2009, 01:17:19 PM

And I said that there were, but it flies in the face of what is feasible.

You can not develop a hypothesis from this as what it would rely on is astronomical ignorance unless you can show that the required conditions for such are met that would allow ANY organisms to exist in this environment.

Which is what would be done during the development of the hypothesis...

Okay, I'm a doubter. Can you give me something that is feasible? I mean, that's an open question.

You have the following issues to deal with:

1. EXTREME heat
2. No nutrients that are known
3. Goes beyond known bioluminescent capabilities several thousand-fold
4. Is there an atmosphere?
5. If this dark energy is pushing light up from the Earth, how would it be possible?
6. What parameters would cause the sun to "burn out" since this seems to imply that the bottom surface of the sun is at the physical capacity limit
7. K or R selective organisms?
8. How would an atmosphere work under the conditions of the universe as I understand it as you understand it?
9. Do you have any supporting literature?
10. Does this explain deuterium associated with solar radiation?
11. Does this explain some communication disruptions during flares?
12. Why would these be bioluminescent?
13. Predators?

Many, many other questions, but that should help you out.

Like I said, I'm bad at biology and was hoping for the input of others, you might want to learn to read before wasting your time typing out another post such as this one.

Like I said, I'm bad at biology and was hoping for the input of others, you might want to learn to read before wasting your time typing out another post such as this one.

I did. I said that it was an open question. I'm sorry, but the English language often makes it a bit confusing when "you" is singular or plural. I'm not just talking about Mr. 343 answering the question, I'm saying it's an open question for all.

And I did give you input.

Quote from: taters343 on August 23, 2009, 02:02:24 PM

Like I said, I'm bad at biology and was hoping for the input of others, you might want to learn to read before wasting your time typing out another post such as this one.

I did. I said that it was an open question. I'm sorry, but the English language often makes it a bit confusing when "you" is singular or plural. I'm not just talking about Mr. 343 answering the question, I'm saying it's an open question for all.

And I did give you input.

Ok, sorry about the insults there then, the sentence in which you said it was an open question didn't make much sense without your clarification. Sorry about that and thank you for your input.

You forget that a disc 32 miles across at a distance of 3000 miles would need to produce as much heat and light as a sphere 865,370 miles across at a distance of 93,000,000 miles. This means that yes, it would need to be producing a massive amount of heat. It's much smaller in the flat earth model so it needs to have a very high amount of light/heat produced per unit area.

The same amount of light/heat obviously needs to reach the Earth, but given the proximity of the hypothesised Sun, surely it wouldn't need to produce the same amount of light/heat, would it?

Quote from: KatiePipkin on August 23, 2009, 01:41:45 PM

You forget that a disc 32 miles across at a distance of 3000 miles would need to produce as much heat and light as a sphere 865,370 miles across at a distance of 93,000,000 miles. This means that yes, it would need to be producing a massive amount of heat. It's much smaller in the flat earth model so it needs to have a very high amount of light/heat produced per unit area.

The same amount of light/heat obviously needs to reach the Earth, but given the proximity of the hypothesised Sun, surely it wouldn't need to produce the same amount of light/heat, would it?

I'm not sure how to do the maths on this but I suspect that the amount of energy per unit area as a percentage would have to be fairly close, since we can measure the amount of energy arriving on earth as an absolute quantity.
If X amount of light/heat arrives on Earth, then X must be the amount produced by a huge distant sphere and the exact same quantity produced by a much smaller closer disc must also be equal to X. Given that the angular size in the sky of both these types of Sun is identical (we'll call that Y) and therefore X amount of energy is coming from an object Y degrees across, one percent of a small Sun's surface must be casting the same energy as one percent of a large Sun's surface* (or at least the side of the sphere facing us). I could be wrong with this mathematically so I'd appreciate some more input if anyone can do it better.

*Loss of energy over distance is dealt with by the inverse square law.

Yes, I KNOW a light bulb isn't bio-luminescent. That's the point. EVEN a light bulb feels warm when you hold your hand up to it, and it's artificial light, so imagine what kind of heat the sun could give off. (Oh wait, you don't need to... just go outside!)

How is it the point?

Here we are discussing a bio-luminescent sun and you mention a light bulb! I asked if you knew what bio-luminescence was because of the fact you mentioned a light bulb. A few marine creatures and fireflies are bio-luminescent, a light bulb isn't so how is that the point? If the type of living creatures were to provide the sort of heat we feel from the sun, what do you think would be the outcome for those creatures?

How much heat do you think a firefly gives off - as much as the light bulb in your living room?

Anyway, a bio-luminescent sun is just another of super-troll James/J.McIntyre/dogplatter's little jokes and he's having a good laugh at our expense I'm sure.

Quote from: W on August 23, 2009, 12:45:31 PM

Yes, I KNOW a light bulb isn't bio-luminescent. That's the point. EVEN a light bulb feels warm when you hold your hand up to it, and it's artificial light, so imagine what kind of heat the sun could give off. (Oh wait, you don't need to... just go outside!)

How is it the point?

EVEN a light bulb feels warm when you hold your hand up to it, and it's artificial light, so imagine what kind of heat the sun could give off. (Oh wait, you don't need to... just go outside!)

Here we are discussing a bio-luminescent sun and you mention a light bulb! I asked if you knew what bio-luminescence was because of the fact you mentioned a light bulb. A few marine creatures and fireflies are bio-luminescent, a light bulb isn't so how is that the point? If the type of living creatures were to provide the sort of heat we feel from the sun, what do you think would be the outcome for those creatures?

How much heat do you think a firefly gives off - as much as the light bulb in your living room?

Anyway, a bio-luminescent sun is just another of super-troll James/J.McIntyre/dogplatter's little jokes and he's having a good laugh at our expense I'm sure.

Hey, it was purely speculation on my part. I'm not saying this is definitely true. I'm just saying it's something to consider. Though I used to try to catch fireflies when I was a kid (only to let them go again, of course), and they felt warm in my hands.

Hey, it was purely speculation on my part. I'm not saying this is definitely true. I'm just saying it's something to consider. Though I used to try to catch fireflies when I was a kid (only to let them go again, of course), and they felt warm in my hands.

I believe that bio-luminescence is sometimes called 'cold light'. James would have been better off suggesting the moon was bio-luminescent rather than the sun.

Does a lit light bulb feel warm or hot in your hands? Warmer than a firefly?

 Wikipedia article about Solar energy states that "The Earth receives 174 petawatts (PW) of incoming solar radiation (insolation) at the upper atmosphere." Maybe someone can do estimate calculations how much energy the the sun being 3000 miles away must generate. It must be quite hot there. And as the term luminescence is defined as light occurring at low temperatures would it be possible to devise some other term for the Suns's light because luminescence just doesn't produce sufficient radiation to heat something up. It's just confusing otherwise.

Quote from: W on August 23, 2009, 11:52:32 PM

Hey, it was purely speculation on my part. I'm not saying this is definitely true. I'm just saying it's something to consider. Though I used to try to catch fireflies when I was a kid (only to let them go again, of course), and they felt warm in my hands.

I believe that bio-luminescence is sometimes called 'cold light'. James would have been better off suggesting the moon was bio-luminescent rather than the sun.

Does a lit light bulb feel warm or hot in your hands?

Yes.

Warmer than a firefly?

Both feel warm.

Quote from: Squat on August 22, 2009, 11:32:48 PM

Quote from: James on August 22, 2009, 10:46:51 PM

As I have already stated (or at the very least heavily implied), the outer surface of the Sun is alive, and possessing of bioluminescent properties, which is the source of its light.

What is the source of the heat we feel from 'your' bio-luminescent sun?

The Sun belongs to everyone, Squat! And it produces heat for the same reason your arm is hotter than room temperature, and the same reason an elk carcass steams in the snow. Alive stuff is warm, especially when there is a lot of it and it is bioluminescent.

The heat that made that elk carcass warm came from it's food. My arm is hotter than room temperature because my body is burning calories constantly to stay above room temperature.

Where is all of this alive stuff getting its energy? What is its food? By the law of conservation of energy, it must be receiving AT LEAST as much energy from somewhere as hits our earth. This is about 10^28 joules a day.  Regardless of how far away the sun is, it must have this much energy coming out, because that's how much we measure.

an answer on this would still be exceptional. I want to believe.

It has been calculated on here that the 32 mile diameter FE sun would actually need to output less heat per square inch to heat the earth.

To warm yourself with a fire 5 feet away all you need is a small bondfire. To warm yourself with a fire 500 feet away, you need a raging forest fire.