Why did God create Atheists?

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The Terror

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2009, 05:18:32 PM »
because the Christian God is "a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

Nah, he just has bad press.
I suggest you read the Old Testament.

I think that's the press he's talking about.

Yes.

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Soze

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2009, 06:00:07 PM »
Why did God create Atheists?
Shooting practice.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2009, 06:21:37 PM »
He wants you to recognize that this ordered and structured and clearly designed universe in which we live was created by something better than you without holding your hand and telling you.

So what created the ordered, structured and clearly designed Creator? For any creator capable of designing the Universe must be at least equally as complex.

The Creator created Himself.  Duh.  Since He is infinitely complex and we are quite finitely complex and therefore relative to Him infinitely simple we can't even begin to understand the mysteries of His existence.  That is for Him to know and Him only.

So the answer to 'how did God do it?' is, in fact, 'goddidit'

Yeah, see how easy that is?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Areweonfiya

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2009, 06:28:09 PM »
He wants you to recognize that this ordered and structured and clearly designed universe in which we live was created by something better than you without holding your hand and telling you.

So what created the ordered, structured and clearly designed Creator? For any creator capable of designing the Universe must be at least equally as complex.

The Creator created Himself.  Duh.  Since He is infinitely complex and we are quite finitely complex and therefore relative to Him infinitely simple we can't even begin to understand the mysteries of His existence.  That is for Him to know and Him only.

So the answer to 'how did God do it?' is, in fact, 'goddidit'

Yeah, see how easy that is?

Which is why I'm an Atheist. The answers just don't satisfy me.

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Masterchef

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2009, 01:12:06 AM »
I shall think about nothing!
That's the key to being a good Christian.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2009, 02:13:41 AM »
He wants you to recognize that this ordered and structured and clearly designed universe in which we live was created by something better than you without holding your hand and telling you.

So what created the ordered, structured and clearly designed Creator? For any creator capable of designing the Universe must be at least equally as complex.

The Creator created Himself.  Duh.  Since He is infinitely complex and we are quite finitely complex and therefore relative to Him infinitely simple we can't even begin to understand the mysteries of His existence.  That is for Him to know and Him only.

So the answer to 'how did God do it?' is, in fact, 'goddidit'

Yeah, see how easy that is?

But it answers nothing. I could declare that the whole universe grew out of a cosmic onion but since I have no evidence to back me up it's a pointless suggestion.

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Jeffs

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2009, 05:21:07 AM »
God created man and then woman with his infinite power and wisdom but accidentally made them idiots who fucking love talking snakes and then left two trees with tasty looking fruit in their little play pen with which they could become gods themselves and a really big mouthed retarded snake. Opps.

But it's okay, after all, he knows everything and is infinitely smart, right? So basically he fucked around for a few thousand years carefully placing dinosaur bones and odd fossils in order to try and trick people into not believing in him and then made a bush talk to some crazy bastard with stones and a chisel and told him to discipline everyone according to some very specific rules. So the guy did and everyone went around murdering and raping people in the name of god and he quite enjoyed that but then he decided it was boring or something.

This next part is the really clever bit. He realised that he'd fucked up with the humans, he'd created a bunch of flailing morons who hate each other. In order to remedy the situation this infinitely powerful guy decided to impregnate some random chick with himself so that he'd be born so that he can sacrifice himself to himself so that he can forgive the humans and their retardedness which he'd created.

This actually took a very long time and so just like with the flaming bush scenario he ended up proving his existence to a bunch of people in the form of miracles and stuff, but that's all okay because of the fossils he'd placed earlier. It was actually a very cunning plan because this meant that it didn't matter that he had proved his existence quite unfairly to a small proportion of people because there's a much larger amount of people who will find the fake fossils and be unanimous in deciding that the bible is false which will counter everything out.

That's why Atheists exist, they make up for the fact that god has proven his existence to other people.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 05:22:40 AM by Jeffs »


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Dr. Pwnstein

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2009, 05:29:23 AM »
me likey

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2009, 12:35:43 PM »
He wants you to recognize that this ordered and structured and clearly designed universe in which we live was created by something better than you without holding your hand and telling you.

So what created the ordered, structured and clearly designed Creator? For any creator capable of designing the Universe must be at least equally as complex.

The Creator created Himself.  Duh.  Since He is infinitely complex and we are quite finitely complex and therefore relative to Him infinitely simple we can't even begin to understand the mysteries of His existence.  That is for Him to know and Him only.

So the answer to 'how did God do it?' is, in fact, 'goddidit'

Yeah, see how easy that is?

But it answers nothing. I could declare that the whole universe grew out of a cosmic onion but since I have no evidence to back me up it's a pointless suggestion.

Right but the notion of an intelligent Creator is perfectly logical.  It's just like how a watch implies the existence of a watchmaker; the universe implies the existence of a universemaker.  Also, wrap your head around this:

Something created everything in existence.

We can give the something that created everything in existence the placeholder name "God".

"God" is a part of existence.

Therefore, God created God.

QED.

Are you a Christian yet?
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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2009, 01:05:29 PM »
He wants you to recognize that this ordered and structured and clearly designed universe in which we live was created by something better than you without holding your hand and telling you.

So what created the ordered, structured and clearly designed Creator? For any creator capable of designing the Universe must be at least equally as complex.

Man created God as a way to get out of trouble.  "Why did you do that?"  "God told me to."  God is as complex as FET because we had to continue to add more outlandish attributes to him to explain away our bad reasoning.

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Areweonfiya

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2009, 02:13:17 PM »


Right but the notion of an intelligent Creator is perfectly logical.  It's just like how a watch implies the existence of a watchmaker; the universe implies the existence of a universemaker.  Also, wrap your head around this:

Something created everything in existence.

We can give the something that created everything in existence the placeholder name "God".

"God" is a part of existence.

Therefore, God created God.

QED.

Are you a Christian yet?

Or you could believe the Big Bang Theory happened. And what created the Big Bang? Why, another Big Bang gazillions of years ago We probably will never know, but that's no reason to say "Goddidit". Life is bound to happen wherever there is the slightest chance.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2009, 05:40:22 PM »
Or you could believe the Big Bang Theory happened. And what created the Big Bang? Why, another Big Bang gazillions of years ago We probably will never know, but that's no reason to say "Goddidit". Life is bound to happen wherever there is the slightest chance.

No matter how far back you try to go using science, you always run into the same problem: some event must have triggered everything, and we will never be able to know what that event was or how it happened.  That's why God is the only really sensible answer.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Proleg

Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2009, 05:42:56 PM »
No matter how far back you try to go using science, you always run into the same problem: some event must have triggered everything, and we will never be able to know what that event was or how it happened.
Maybe.

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Areweonfiya

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2009, 07:25:01 PM »
Or you could believe the Big Bang Theory happened. And what created the Big Bang? Why, another Big Bang gazillions of years ago We probably will never know, but that's no reason to say "Goddidit". Life is bound to happen wherever there is the slightest chance.

No matter how far back you try to go using science, you always run into the same problem: some event must have triggered everything, and we will never be able to know what that event was or how it happened.  That's why God is the only really sensible answer.

Well someday we will achieve lightspeed and hopefully come in contact with aliens who will explain to us how the universe came to be. So untill then, God did it.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2009, 07:26:44 PM »
Or you could believe the Big Bang Theory happened. And what created the Big Bang? Why, another Big Bang gazillions of years ago We probably will never know, but that's no reason to say "Goddidit". Life is bound to happen wherever there is the slightest chance.

No matter how far back you try to go using science, you always run into the same problem: some event must have triggered everything, and we will never be able to know what that event was or how it happened.  That's why God is the only really sensible answer.

Well someday we will achieve lightspeed and hopefully come in contact with aliens who will explain to us how the universe came to be. So untill then, God did it.

But in your hypothetical scenario how would the aliens know how the universe came to be?  They'd be held back by the same constraints on the pursuit of knowledge as we are.
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Soze

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2009, 07:28:42 PM »
"God did it" is not an explanation. It's an evasion.

You can either say you don't know, or you can explain how god did it.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2009, 08:50:22 PM »
"God did it" is not an explanation. It's an evasion.

You can either say you don't know, or you can explain how god did it.

How God did it is irrelevant.  I think religion and spirituality in general are more concerned with why God did it, as in, what was His purpose, because asking what the Creator had in mind when He created us is central to asking what our own purpose is.

Scientists are desperate to know how God did it, although being so anti-God they would never put it that way, and it is getting a more and more complete picture all the time (it will never be complete, and it will probably never be entirely correct).  Religious adherents have never cared about how God did it; they see such questions as futile.
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Parsifal

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2009, 09:57:16 PM »
Right but the notion of an intelligent Creator is perfectly logical.  It's just like how a watch implies the existence of a watchmaker; the universe implies the existence of a universemaker.

Those are two completely different situations. You are living in a universe where you know that people exist and some of them make watches; you do not need to explain away the existence of a watchmaker. Thanks to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, we can say that a watch is more likely to spontaneously appear than a watchmaker, because it would involve a lesser decrease in entropy from raw materials. So, given a hypothetical universe where there are no people (or where there is only one, the observer), an observation of a watch most decidedly does not imply the existence of a watchmaker, for this would only raise the even more difficult question of where the watchmaker came from.

For further detail, see this thread: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30488.0
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Pongo

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2009, 10:18:04 PM »
The typical response to that argument, Steve, is that the designer exists outside the rules that govern the universe.  However, I've always found this rebuttal confusing as I feel it never really answers the question.

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Parsifal

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2009, 10:33:08 PM »
The typical response to that argument, Steve, is that the designer exists outside the rules that govern the universe.  However, I've always found this rebuttal confusing as I feel it never really answers the question.

I know what the typical response is. My response to it would be that it is a convenient way of ending the debate instead of actually responding to the points raised, because if a particular entity exists outside the laws of physics that we know, we cannot ever measure or observe it directly and therefore it is not a matter that can be debated.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2009, 10:34:40 PM »
So, given a hypothetical universe where there are no people (or where there is only one, the observer), an observation of a watch most decidedly does not imply the existence of a watchmaker, for this would only raise the even more difficult question of where the watchmaker came from.

I already covered this.  Behold:

The Creator created Himself.
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Parsifal

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2009, 10:40:57 PM »
So, given a hypothetical universe where there are no people (or where there is only one, the observer), an observation of a watch most decidedly does not imply the existence of a watchmaker, for this would only raise the even more difficult question of where the watchmaker came from.

I already covered this.  Behold:

The Creator created Himself.

Actually, you covered a slightly different point. I was asking before what created God; I am now arguing that the existence of the Universe does not imply the existence of a god, regardless of where it might have come from.

Also, I already responded to that point:

So basically, creationism and information theory are incompatible disciplines.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2009, 10:52:09 PM »
So basically, creationism and information theory are incompatible disciplines.

Well all I know about information theory is what I can glean from its wikipedia entry, but I would say yes, based on the following statement:

Quote
Information theory, however, does not consider message importance or meaning, as these are matters of the quality of data rather than the quantity and readability of data, the latter of which is determined solely by probabilities.

which is interestingly almost an exact restatement of what I said earlier in the thread about the concerns of spirituality vs science.
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Parsifal

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2009, 10:55:14 PM »
So basically, creationism and information theory are incompatible disciplines.

Well all I know about information theory is what I can glean from its wikipedia entry, but I would say yes, based on the following statement:

Quote
Information theory, however, does not consider message importance or meaning, as these are matters of the quality of data rather than the quantity and readability of data, the latter of which is determined solely by probabilities.

which is interestingly almost an exact restatement of what I said earlier in the thread about the concerns of spirituality vs science.

Information theory holds that information cannot come from nowhere. You don't get information without a source.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2009, 11:00:18 PM »
So basically, creationism and information theory are incompatible disciplines.

Well all I know about information theory is what I can glean from its wikipedia entry, but I would say yes, based on the following statement:

Quote
Information theory, however, does not consider message importance or meaning, as these are matters of the quality of data rather than the quantity and readability of data, the latter of which is determined solely by probabilities.

which is interestingly almost an exact restatement of what I said earlier in the thread about the concerns of spirituality vs science.

Information theory holds that information cannot come from nowhere. You don't get information without a source.

Then I guess it should be obvious.  Information theory isn't compatible with any conceivable theory about the ultimate origin of the universe.
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Parsifal

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2009, 11:01:18 PM »
Then I guess it should be obvious.  Information theory isn't compatible with any conceivable theory about the ultimate origin of the universe.

No, all it implies is that the universe contained no information at its origin.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2009, 11:04:33 PM »
Then I guess it should be obvious.  Information theory isn't compatible with any conceivable theory about the ultimate origin of the universe.

No, all it implies is that the universe contained no information at its origin.

Nothing to something is a pretty big leap.

Voila: God.
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Parsifal

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2009, 11:14:38 PM »
Nothing to something is a pretty big leap.

Yes, which is why scientists have developed and are developing theories which can explain how information can be gathered through natural processes. Natural selection is the best such example; first random mutations come into being, then the ones that harm the organism are removed from the gene pool and you are left with information as to what genes are beneficial.

Voila: God.

Using God to explain the generation of information is like bringing back a quantum gravity textbook from the 22nd century and introducing the content to today's scientists which eventually leads to the publication of that textbook. The information doesn't actually come from anywhere.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2009, 11:25:18 PM »
Nothing to something is a pretty big leap.

Yes, which is why scientists have developed and are developing theories which can explain how information can be gathered through natural processes. Natural selection is the best such example; first random mutations come into being, then the ones that harm the organism are removed from the gene pool and you are left with information as to what genes are beneficial.

Natural selection does nothing to explain how something came from nothing.  Natural selection is a prime example of something coming from something.

Quote
Voila: God.

Using God to explain the generation of information is like bringing back a quantum gravity textbook from the 22nd century and introducing the content to today's scientists which eventually leads to the publication of that textbook. The information doesn't actually come from anywhere.

Yes, as has already been explained, the existence of God does nothing to explain how everything came into being.  We'll never know exactly how God came into being; such concepts are beyond our grasp.  Our intelligence, relative to His, is not even that of an ant relative to ours; the universe is infinitely more complex than we will ever be able perceive.  That doesn't mean there aren't good reasons to believe in His existence.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 11:33:51 PM by Roundy the Truthinessist »
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Why did God create Atheists?
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2009, 11:40:43 PM »
So what you're saying is that you can conceive of a being that can create not only the universe but itself as well because it's so infinitely big ad powerful but you can't conceive of a universe so vastly huge and powerful that it couldn't create itself?

Basically if God can exist without any creator, why can't the universe?

Also, let's assume for a moment that you're right that a 'god' created the universe, there's still no reason to get down on your knees and worship it because which god do you worship? All you've narrowed it down to is the cornucopia of gods that claim to have created the universe.