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[...]The full spectrum of human emotion[...]

Yes, that one, it reminded me of some classes.

Those self help books I can usually summarize from their title and state several examples they used and how they used them incorrectly.

My favorite was one about the bucket. My girlfriend thought I had read it because I was giving quotes from the book.

Quote from: Parsifal on September 24, 2009, 11:09:32 PM

So what happens if you try to commit an evil act in heaven? 404?

You wouldn't or you wouldn't be in heaven?

Also, wtf is this "evil" you all speak of. I'm sorry but no action is an isolated event that can easily be categorized, let alone into 2 distinct categories.

*inserts donnie darko rant about the "fear/love" line*

Surely when we talk about "good" and "evil" in this context we mean the supposed objective morality spouted by theists. I think we all know what we're talking about so it's fair to use those words in a hypothetical debate on heaven.

Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on September 24, 2009, 03:16:41 PM

Quote from: Raist on September 23, 2009, 08:35:11 PM

Do I think any evil acts happen in heaven? No.

And by evil do you mean significant evil?

By evil I mean, you are using a subjective term and asking if it happens. Can I ask you if "cool" happens in nature?

"Evil" that god would punish you for, or what a vast majority of humans would agree on as evil. I'll just start calling that significant evil, since I doubt your god would send you to hell for cheating on a test in the third grade.

The point is that God allows 'significant evil' on Earth.

Quote from: Raist on September 24, 2009, 09:25:19 PM

Quote from: ﮎingulaЯiτy on September 24, 2009, 03:16:41 PM

Quote from: Raist on September 23, 2009, 08:35:11 PM

Do I think any evil acts happen in heaven? No.

And by evil do you mean significant evil?

By evil I mean, you are using a subjective term and asking if it happens. Can I ask you if "cool" happens in nature?

"Evil" that god would punish you for, or what a vast majority of humans would agree on as evil. I'll just start calling that significant evil, since I doubt your god would send you to hell for cheating on a test in the third grade.

The point is that God allows 'significant evil' on Earth.

Again, subjective bullshit is not proof of anything. "significant evil" is purely a subjective term, and there is no proof god would not allow it. In fact odds are he is fairly entertained by it, hence allowing it.

Again, subjective bullshit is not proof of anything. "significant evil" is purely a subjective term, and there is no proof god would not allow it. In fact odds are he is fairly entertained by it, hence allowing it.

I defined significant evil as evil that god does not allow. As Proleg already pointed out, it is one of god's purposes to give dictate objectivity.

Also, when god is the designator and the interpreter, the proof that god would not allow it is already definitional. God would not allow x, since x is something defined to be something god would not allow.
There's no point in having terms of good and evil/sin in biblical context if you digress that evil isn't a valid category. A divine definition of evil must exist for us to be sent to hell. You are just dodging examples of evil under the pretense that evil has no perfectly exact definition. If you want, I can rephrase my statement to say: "The god of the bible intentionally allows evil that the bible defines as evil."

Quote from: Raist on September 27, 2009, 11:02:06 AM

Again, subjective bullshit is not proof of anything. "significant evil" is purely a subjective term, and there is no proof god would not allow it. In fact odds are he is fairly entertained by it, hence allowing it.

I defined significant evil as evil that god does not allow. As Proleg already pointed out, it is one of god's purposes to give dictate objectivity.

Also, when god is the designator and the interpreter, the proof that god would not allow it is already definitional. God would not allow x, since x is something defined to be something god would not allow.
There's no point in having terms of good and evil/sin in biblical context if you digress that evil isn't a valid category. A divine definition of evil must exist for us to be sent to hell. You are just dodging examples of evil under the pretense that evil has no perfectly exact definition. If you want, I can rephrase my statement to say: "The god of the bible intentionally allows evil that the bible defines as evil."

Again, you are using the word evil in your definition without defining evil. Subjective term is subjective.

As for something god would not allow, that would be outside of our experience because god has allowed all of our experiences to happen.

Not my definition.

As for something god would not allow, that would be outside of our experience because god has allowed all of our experiences to happen.

Not allow in heaven, because he deems it evil.

My comparison used heaven because much less is allowed/possible there, than here... at least according to the bible.

Not my definition.

Quote from: Raist on September 29, 2009, 01:56:45 PM

As for something god would not allow, that would be outside of our experience because god has allowed all of our experiences to happen.

Not allow in heaven, because he deems it evil.

My comparison used heaven because much less is allowed/possible there, than here... at least according to the bible.

Where does the bible mention heaven or that you aren't allowed to do things there?

Where does the bible mention heaven or that you aren't allowed to do things there?

God punishes people who sin and commit evil with hell, and allows those who commit lesser sin to come to heaven right?

Isn't that allowing evil action on Earth where some of those same actions are not allowed or made impossible in heaven?

That means that he places us in a world more evil than it has to be. God made a nicer place. Mass starvation is a function of the Earth that god designed. Assuming you can't starve in heaven, Earth is poorly designed, or it is not intended to be as nice as it could easily be.

Quote from: Raist on September 29, 2009, 08:15:30 PM

Where does the bible mention heaven or that you aren't allowed to do things there?

God punishes people who sin and commit evil with hell, and allows those who commit lesser sin to come to heaven right?

Isn't that allowing evil action on Earth where some of those same actions are not allowed or made impossible in heaven?

That means that he places us in a world more evil than it has to be. God made a nicer place. Mass starvation is a function of the Earth that god designed. Assuming you can't starve in heaven, Earth is poorly designed, or it is not intended to be as nice as it could easily be.

What actions does he not allow? Punishing someone for an action is not the same as not allowing it.

What actions does he not allow? Punishing someone for an action is not the same as not allowing it.

The inherent limits of heaven prevent billions of evil acts like torture, whereas reality was built with rules allowing torture.

Quote from: Raist on September 30, 2009, 05:46:33 PM

What actions does he not allow? Punishing someone for an action is not the same as not allowing it.

The inherent limits of heaven prevent billions of evil acts like torture, whereas reality was built with rules allowing torture.

a) is torture evil?

b) who said you can't torture someone in heaven? That certainly wouldn't be heaven for sadists.

c) you can't do whatever you want in our reality either.

a) is torture evil?

I'd assume so if it was done without justification, but what really matters is your religion. Do you consider it to be a sin? As long as there is a distinction of sin, there is a distinction of evil. That's the point.

b) who said you can't torture someone in heaven? That certainly wouldn't be heaven for sadists.

That wouldn't be heaven for the victims.

c) you can't do whatever you want in reality either.

So?

But heaven is without sin. That doesn't mean that you can't do certain things, it means there is no sin.

What about sadists that spend their whole lives not hurting people? Shouldn't heaven be a reward for them? And also masochists would certainly enjoy receiving the sadists pain.

But heaven is without sin. That doesn't mean that you can't do certain things, it means there is no sin.

What about sadists that spend their whole lives not hurting people? Shouldn't heaven be a reward for them? And also masochists would certainly enjoy receiving the sadists pain.

So heaven is a Dionysian orgy of sex, drugs and horrific violence? Is that what you strive for? In that case the mere act of wanting to go there is a sin.

Quote from: Raist on October 02, 2009, 02:16:52 PM

But heaven is without sin. That doesn't mean that you can't do certain things, it means there is no sin.

What about sadists that spend their whole lives not hurting people? Shouldn't heaven be a reward for them? And also masochists would certainly enjoy receiving the sadists pain.

So heaven is a Dionysian orgy of sex, drugs and horrific violence? Is that what you strive for? In that case the mere act of wanting to go there is a sin.

I've never been there. I was asking a question. And if your heaven is an orgy of sex drugs and violence, I doubt you made it to heaven in the first place. Though I do not know that and am just assuming.

Quote from: General Douchebag on October 02, 2009, 02:26:23 PM

Quote from: Raist on October 02, 2009, 02:16:52 PM

But heaven is without sin. That doesn't mean that you can't do certain things, it means there is no sin.

What about sadists that spend their whole lives not hurting people? Shouldn't heaven be a reward for them? And also masochists would certainly enjoy receiving the sadists pain.

So heaven is a Dionysian orgy of sex, drugs and horrific violence? Is that what you strive for? In that case the mere act of wanting to go there is a sin.

I've never been there. I was asking a question. And if your heaven is an orgy of sex drugs and violence, I doubt you made it to heaven in the first place. Though I do not know that and am just assuming.

You claimed that sin as a concept did not exist there. Since "sin" is the religionword for "immoral act", that basically means heaven is without inherent immorality which to your bog-standard christian is any morality. I addressed that, and left it to Singy to answer the questions you asked him.

Whoa, whoa. Hang on a minute, I get a different heaven? I spend eternity without any moral or social limits, but totally alone? That's awful!

Quote from: Raist on October 02, 2009, 02:28:25 PM

Quote from: General Douchebag on October 02, 2009, 02:26:23 PM

Quote from: Raist on October 02, 2009, 02:16:52 PM

But heaven is without sin. That doesn't mean that you can't do certain things, it means there is no sin.

What about sadists that spend their whole lives not hurting people? Shouldn't heaven be a reward for them? And also masochists would certainly enjoy receiving the sadists pain.

So heaven is a Dionysian orgy of sex, drugs and horrific violence? Is that what you strive for? In that case the mere act of wanting to go there is a sin.

I've never been there. I was asking a question. And if your heaven is an orgy of sex drugs and violence, I doubt you made it to heaven in the first place. Though I do not know that and am just assuming.

You claimed that sin as a concept did not exist there. Since "sin" is the religionword for "immoral act", that basically means heaven is without inherent immorality which to your bog-standard christian is any morality. I addressed that, and left it to Singy to answer the questions you asked him.

Whoa, whoa. Hang on a minute, I get a different heaven? I spend eternity without any moral or social limits, but totally alone? That's awful!

No idea.

I didn't mean the acts that we consider sins are no longer there, I mean those events are not considered sin. Also, the bible never really talks about heaven until long after the death of anyone that was even reasonably connected to God.

...So wait. You're saying an action considered "bad" on Earth can get someone damned for all eternity, yet by going to heaven the same actions and behavior are not bad anymore?

...So wait. You're saying an action considered "bad" on Earth can get someone damned for all eternity, yet by going to heaven the same actions and behavior are not bad anymore?

If there is a world without pain, without suffering, without sadness, without hurt, how could anything you do there be bad?

If there is a world without pain, without suffering, without sadness, without hurt, how could anything you do there be bad?

So there isn't pain now? Poor masochists.  

Well, this is actually convenient because my original point was defending the argument from evil by saying that God built the world with all of the "badness" you say doesn't extend to heaven. Therefore, we now know he could have built the world free of it for two reasons:
1. He's omnipotent.
2. He's made already made a better place.

These evils are unnecessary since he could have done better.

In your opinion better. Our experiences help make us who we are.

In your opinion better. Our experiences help make us who we are.

You know that "better" was just the word approximation approaching the condition that he is or is not omnibenevolent, which was the core issue.

Also, what are you trying to say in your second sentence? That we are somehow better because of our experienced of evil, then we would be without?
I'll be back tomorrow.

Quote from: Raist on October 02, 2009, 09:17:02 PM

In your opinion better. Our experiences help make us who we are.

You know that "better" was just the word approximation approaching the condition that he is or is not omnibenevolent, which was the core issue.

Also, what are you trying to say in your second sentence? That we are somehow better because of our experienced of evil, then we would be without?
I'll be back tomorrow.

Yes, i'd say that. Hard experiences tend to make people better.

He already made a better place according to Christians, it was called Eden.

Think how short a time it took 2 humans to rebel against God. If even a million people go to Heaven how long does God think it will stay perfect?

He already made a better place according to Christians, it was called Eden.

Think how short a time it took 2 humans to rebel against God. If even a million people go to Heaven how long does God think it will stay perfect?

However long he wants.

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on October 03, 2009, 12:30:55 PM

He already made a better place according to Christians, it was called Eden.

Think how short a time it took 2 humans to rebel against God. If even a million people go to Heaven how long does God think it will stay perfect?

However long he wants.

So there's no such thing as free will?

Quote from: Raist on October 03, 2009, 12:46:42 PM

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on October 03, 2009, 12:30:55 PM

He already made a better place according to Christians, it was called Eden.

Think how short a time it took 2 humans to rebel against God. If even a million people go to Heaven how long does God think it will stay perfect?

However long he wants.

So there's no such thing as free will?

What?

Quote from: General Douchebag on October 03, 2009, 01:07:04 PM

Quote from: Raist on October 03, 2009, 12:46:42 PM

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on October 03, 2009, 12:30:55 PM

He already made a better place according to Christians, it was called Eden.

Think how short a time it took 2 humans to rebel against God. If even a million people go to Heaven how long does God think it will stay perfect?

However long he wants.

So there's no such thing as free will?

What?

If he can prevent humanity from sinning once they get to heaven he has taken away their free will.

Quote from: Raist on October 03, 2009, 01:18:27 PM

Quote from: General Douchebag on October 03, 2009, 01:07:04 PM

Quote from: Raist on October 03, 2009, 12:46:42 PM

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on October 03, 2009, 12:30:55 PM

He already made a better place according to Christians, it was called Eden.

Think how short a time it took 2 humans to rebel against God. If even a million people go to Heaven how long does God think it will stay perfect?

However long he wants.

So there's no such thing as free will?

What?

If he can prevent humanity from sinning once they get to heaven he has taken away their free will.

Sounds like a reasonable conclusion to me.