The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #270 on: June 30, 2010, 10:50:42 PM »
I'm a game designer. Anyone who thinks that this is a sign of some flat Earth-believing game designers is just grabbing for straws. There are three major reasons why a video game world appears to be flat.

1. The game world does not correspond to the real world. As far as you know, Wind Waker takes place on an infinitely large sphere. Or on a cube. Especially in aesthetically simple games like Wind Waker, adherence to reality is not only unnecessary, but usually avoided.

2. It's simpler. Even in basic terms. To draw a quadrilateral, you need four vertices, which create four lines and one face. To make even the simplest possible hemisphere, half of an 8-sided die, you need five vertices, creating eight lines and four faces. A moderately nice looking hemisphere at that scale requires hundreds of vertices to look acceptable. And if you only wanted to render a curved horizon, that would be even more work, as you would have to distort a plane after it has already been rendered. In short, it's easier for everyone if you just have a quad.

3. Gravity. In games, gravity works by increasing the vertical velocity of things in the down direction. In a flat world, gravity always exists in the same direction. In a round world, gravity points towards the center of the mass. When you have variable gravity, you will end up with variable collision. Zelda floor collision is very simple. You are either touching ground or you aren't. To make it acceptable in 'round' terms, you would need to rework your collision engine to make the character conform to the rounded terrain. This goes back to the 'it's simpler' point. There's just no need to put all that extra work into making the game round.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #271 on: June 30, 2010, 11:27:13 PM »
I'm a game designer. Anyone who thinks that this is a sign of some flat Earth-believing game designers is just grabbing for straws. There are three major reasons why a video game world appears to be flat.

1. The game world does not correspond to the real world. As far as you know, Wind Waker takes place on an infinitely large sphere. Or on a cube. Especially in aesthetically simple games like Wind Waker, adherence to reality is not only unnecessary, but usually avoided.

2. It's simpler. Even in basic terms. To draw a quadrilateral, you need four vertices, which create four lines and one face. To make even the simplest possible hemisphere, half of an 8-sided die, you need five vertices, creating eight lines and four faces. A moderately nice looking hemisphere at that scale requires hundreds of vertices to look acceptable. And if you only wanted to render a curved horizon, that would be even more work, as you would have to distort a plane after it has already been rendered. In short, it's easier for everyone if you just have a quad.

3. Gravity. In games, gravity works by increasing the vertical velocity of things in the down direction. In a flat world, gravity always exists in the same direction. In a round world, gravity points towards the center of the mass. When you have variable gravity, you will end up with variable collision. Zelda floor collision is very simple. You are either touching ground or you aren't. To make it acceptable in 'round' terms, you would need to rework your collision engine to make the character conform to the rounded terrain. This goes back to the 'it's simpler' point. There's just no need to put all that extra work into making the game round.

If you're right, you shouldn't have to throw out three reasons that you're right.  Only one of them (if any) can be the actual reason video games are rendered flat.  In an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else these look like weak justifications to me.

But I think I see what you are doing, comrade.  ;)
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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #272 on: June 30, 2010, 11:40:28 PM »
I'm a game designer. Anyone who thinks that this is a sign of some flat Earth-believing game designers is just grabbing for straws. There are three major reasons why a video game world appears to be flat.

1. The game world does not correspond to the real world. As far as you know, Wind Waker takes place on an infinitely large sphere. Or on a cube. Especially in aesthetically simple games like Wind Waker, adherence to reality is not only unnecessary, but usually avoided.

2. It's simpler. Even in basic terms. To draw a quadrilateral, you need four vertices, which create four lines and one face. To make even the simplest possible hemisphere, half of an 8-sided die, you need five vertices, creating eight lines and four faces. A moderately nice looking hemisphere at that scale requires hundreds of vertices to look acceptable. And if you only wanted to render a curved horizon, that would be even more work, as you would have to distort a plane after it has already been rendered. In short, it's easier for everyone if you just have a quad.

3. Gravity. In games, gravity works by increasing the vertical velocity of things in the down direction. In a flat world, gravity always exists in the same direction. In a round world, gravity points towards the center of the mass. When you have variable gravity, you will end up with variable collision. Zelda floor collision is very simple. You are either touching ground or you aren't. To make it acceptable in 'round' terms, you would need to rework your collision engine to make the character conform to the rounded terrain. This goes back to the 'it's simpler' point. There's just no need to put all that extra work into making the game round.

If you're right, you shouldn't have to throw out three reasons that you're right.  Only one of them (if any) can be the actual reason video games are rendered flat.  In an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else these look like weak justifications to me.

But I think I see what you are doing, comrade.  ;)

If there are multiple reasons, then that means only one of them can be an actual reason? What kind of insane logic is that? If I give you two vectors and ask you to prove they're equal, you need to prove that both the magnitudes and the directions are equal. If you only prove one, that doesn't prove anything. And in an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else, games are still being run on systems with limited memory. That means you cut corners when you can. It's why you don't draw things when they aren't in view, even though objects exist even when you don't look at them. It's why game designers do a lot of things.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #273 on: July 01, 2010, 02:57:44 AM »
Actually fog effect loading would be bounds easier to program and much cheaper than including the perspective effect
Fog is nice, but is not necessary and is computationally quite expensive (which is why it's usually off loaded to the GPU).
Have you read the OP  ???
Yes, and I don't see any analysis of the programming complexity or computational requirements of fog effects vs. perspective effects.


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markjo

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #274 on: July 01, 2010, 05:03:49 AM »
Actually fog effect loading would be bounds easier to program and much cheaper than including the perspective effect
Fog is nice, but is not necessary and is computationally quite expensive (which is why it's usually off loaded to the GPU).
Have you read the OP  ???
Yes, and I don't see any analysis of the programming complexity or computational requirements of fog effects vs. perspective effects.
Did you play video games during the PS1/N64 era?
Did you play video games during the Atari 2600 era?  Game programmers are always looking for shortcuts and optimizations to enhance game performance on systems with limited resources.
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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #275 on: July 01, 2010, 05:18:17 AM »
I'm a game designer. Anyone who thinks that this is a sign of some flat Earth-believing game designers is just grabbing for straws. There are three major reasons why a video game world appears to be flat.

1. The game world does not correspond to the real world. As far as you know, Wind Waker takes place on an infinitely large sphere. Or on a cube. Especially in aesthetically simple games like Wind Waker, adherence to reality is not only unnecessary, but usually avoided.

2. It's simpler. Even in basic terms. To draw a quadrilateral, you need four vertices, which create four lines and one face. To make even the simplest possible hemisphere, half of an 8-sided die, you need five vertices, creating eight lines and four faces. A moderately nice looking hemisphere at that scale requires hundreds of vertices to look acceptable. And if you only wanted to render a curved horizon, that would be even more work, as you would have to distort a plane after it has already been rendered. In short, it's easier for everyone if you just have a quad.

3. Gravity. In games, gravity works by increasing the vertical velocity of things in the down direction. In a flat world, gravity always exists in the same direction. In a round world, gravity points towards the center of the mass. When you have variable gravity, you will end up with variable collision. Zelda floor collision is very simple. You are either touching ground or you aren't. To make it acceptable in 'round' terms, you would need to rework your collision engine to make the character conform to the rounded terrain. This goes back to the 'it's simpler' point. There's just no need to put all that extra work into making the game round.

If you're right, you shouldn't have to throw out three reasons that you're right.  Only one of them (if any) can be the actual reason video games are rendered flat.  In an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else these look like weak justifications to me.

But I think I see what you are doing, comrade.  ;)

Elaborate.
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Raver

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #276 on: July 01, 2010, 08:18:34 AM »
If you're right, you shouldn't have to throw out three reasons that you're right.  Only one of them (if any) can be the actual reason video games are rendered flat.  In an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else these look like weak justifications to me.

But I think I see what you are doing, comrade.  ;)

Because Zelda looks realistic, has a realistic storyline and realistic colours amirite.
Do you actually think before posting? Call of duty for instance is one of the most popular games at this very moment, it is however far from realistic. Sims on the other hand are far less popular although their degree of realism is higher (think il2, silent hunter arma etc.). So apparently realism is not "prized above everything else" in this age.

But I see what you did there (well, attempted anyway)
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #277 on: July 01, 2010, 08:28:17 AM »
If you're right, you shouldn't have to throw out three reasons that you're right.  Only one of them (if any) can be the actual reason video games are rendered flat.  In an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else these look like weak justifications to me.

But I think I see what you are doing, comrade.  ;)

Because Zelda looks realistic,

I'm stopping right there. If you think Zelda looks realistic, then this debate can clearly not continue.



That looks nothing like reality.

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Raver

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #278 on: July 01, 2010, 08:42:36 AM »
If you're right, you shouldn't have to throw out three reasons that you're right.  Only one of them (if any) can be the actual reason video games are rendered flat.  In an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else these look like weak justifications to me.

But I think I see what you are doing, comrade.  ;)

Because Zelda looks realistic,

I'm stopping right there. If you think Zelda looks realistic, then this debate can clearly not continue.

That looks nothing like reality.

Wow, did you misplace your glasses? www.rif.org
That was my point you silly person, something you would have realized if you had read on.
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #279 on: July 01, 2010, 08:51:43 AM »
If you're right, you shouldn't have to throw out three reasons that you're right.  Only one of them (if any) can be the actual reason video games are rendered flat.  In an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else these look like weak justifications to me.

But I think I see what you are doing, comrade.  ;)

Because Zelda looks realistic,

I'm stopping right there. If you think Zelda looks realistic, then this debate can clearly not continue.

That looks nothing like reality.

Wow, did you misplace your glasses? www.rif.org
That was my point you silly person, something you would have realized if you had read on.

Then maybe you have your point mixed up. Call of Duty is far more realistic then the Sims.

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Catchpa

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #280 on: July 01, 2010, 09:03:12 AM »
That depends on how you look at the two games. CoD(MW2) is far from being realistic if you look at the real war. Sims, however, is more true to the everyday life but obviously kept at entertainment value and the technological possibilities.
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Raver

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #281 on: July 01, 2010, 09:06:20 AM »
If you're right, you shouldn't have to throw out three reasons that you're right.  Only one of them (if any) can be the actual reason video games are rendered flat.  In an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else these look like weak justifications to me.

But I think I see what you are doing, comrade.  ;)

Because Zelda looks realistic,

I'm stopping right there. If you think Zelda looks realistic, then this debate can clearly not continue.

That looks nothing like reality.

Wow, did you misplace your glasses? www.rif.org
That was my point you silly person, something you would have realized if you had read on.

Then maybe you have your point mixed up. Call of Duty is far more realistic then the Sims.

www.rif.org

Not "The Sims" as in the game in which you take control of people and get to build houses from top down. I mean sims as in simulations, something you would have understood if you would have read on (something I told you to do in my previous post). So before being silly again read my whole post, or don't bother replying to it.

If you then still believe CoD, a game in which you shit out a grenade after you die, a game in which the US marines are using 19th century shotties, a game in which shooting 2 p90's at the same while running and still hitting your target is normal, a game in which both marines and insurgents can "take control" of an ac130. If you then still believe that CoD is more realistic than a game like ArmA, all hope is lost.

(to make it clear, I am saying ArmA is more realistic than CoD, not that it is life-like realistic)

EDIT: I would also like to point out that you have once again derailed the discussion thanks to you not reading, or not understanding that which you have read.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 09:09:59 AM by Raver »
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #282 on: July 01, 2010, 09:10:25 AM »
If you're right, you shouldn't have to throw out three reasons that you're right.  Only one of them (if any) can be the actual reason video games are rendered flat.  In an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else these look like weak justifications to me.

But I think I see what you are doing, comrade.  ;)

Because Zelda looks realistic,

I'm stopping right there. If you think Zelda looks realistic, then this debate can clearly not continue.

That looks nothing like reality.

Wow, did you misplace your glasses? www.rif.org
That was my point you silly person, something you would have realized if you had read on.

Then maybe you have your point mixed up. Call of Duty is far more realistic then the Sims.

www.rif.org

Not "The Sims" as in the game in which you take control of people and get to build houses from top down. I mean sims as in simulations, something you would have understood if you would have read on (something I told you to do in my previous post). So before being silly again read my whole post, or don't bother replying to it.

If you then still believe CoD, a game in which you shit out a grenade after you die, a game in which the US marines are using 19th century shotties, a game in which shooting 2 p90's at the same while running and still hitting your target is normal, a game in which both marines and insurgents can "take control" of an ac130. If you then still believe that CoD is more realistic than a game like ArmA, all hope is lost.

(to make it clear, I am saying ArmA is more realistic than CoD, not that it is life-like realistic)

You did not at any point specify what type of realism is you were talking about. I took it you meant realistic as in visually realistic as that would fit in the context of the thread.

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Catchpa

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #283 on: July 01, 2010, 09:10:47 AM »
I think you two are talking past each other :-\
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Raver

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #284 on: July 01, 2010, 09:26:54 AM »
I think you two are talking past each other :-\

Which is no surprise as he is replying after only half-reading everything.


@Gentleman:

My first reply was to Truthiness who said the following:
Quote
"In an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else these look like weak justifications to me."

I showed him is premises ("an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else") were false and that therefor his conclusion ("these look like weak justifications to me") is wrong.

Now please refrain from replying again untill you have read everything I said along with all quotations etc..

www.rif.org
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #285 on: July 01, 2010, 09:32:59 AM »
I think you two are talking past each other :-\

Which is no surprise as he is replying after only half-reading everything.


@Gentleman:

My first reply was to Truthiness who said the following:
Quote
"In an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else these look like weak justifications to me."

I showed him is premises ("an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else") were false and that therefor his conclusion ("these look like weak justifications to me") is wrong.

Now please refrain from replying again untill you have read everything I said along with all quotations etc..

www.rif.org

You did no such thing.

Because Zelda looks realistic, has a realistic storyline and realistic colours amirite.
Do you actually think before posting? Call of duty for instance is one of the most popular games at this very moment, it is however far from realistic. Sims on the other hand are far less popular although their degree of realism is higher (think il2, silent hunter arma etc.). So apparently realism is not "prized above everything else" in this age.

But I see what you did there (well, attempted anyway)
All you did was through in a strawman argument. Call of Duty as far as video games go is extremely visually realistic and that is exactly what Roundy was talking about.

www.rif.org

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Raver

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #286 on: July 01, 2010, 09:46:07 AM »
I think you two are talking past each other :-\

Which is no surprise as he is replying after only half-reading everything.


@Gentleman:

My first reply was to Truthiness who said the following:
Quote
"In an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else these look like weak justifications to me."

I showed him is premises ("an age when realism in games is held as prized above anything else") were false and that therefor his conclusion ("these look like weak justifications to me") is wrong.

Now please refrain from replying again untill you have read everything I said along with all quotations etc..

www.rif.org

You did no such thing.

Because Zelda looks realistic, has a realistic storyline and realistic colours amirite.
Do you actually think before posting? Call of duty for instance is one of the most popular games at this very moment, it is however far from realistic. Sims on the other hand are far less popular although their degree of realism is higher (think il2, silent hunter arma etc.). So apparently realism is not "prized above everything else" in this age.

But I see what you did there (well, attempted anyway)
All you did was through in a strawman argument. Call of Duty as far as video games go is extremely visually realistic and that is exactly what Roundy was talking about.

www.rif.org

Roundy said realism in games is prized over everything else, I showed him that is not true. You are reading and seeing things you want to read and see.

Btw, call of duty is far from visually realistic, if you think that is what war looks like you have been watching too much Hollywood. Sure, it's a fun game with cool effects and it sure does look stunning, it is however far from loking realistic. But again, that isn't the point, the point is that realsim=/=most prized in games.
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General Disarray

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #287 on: July 01, 2010, 10:52:21 AM »
Fun game, can I play too? www.rif.org

I'll ask this yet again:

Just so we're clear, Are you claiming that the designers of the game (and the others you mentioned in the thread) purposefully designed it specifically so that the world would appear flat?
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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #288 on: July 01, 2010, 12:12:43 PM »
All you did was through in a strawman argument. Call of Duty as far as video games go is extremely visually realistic and that is exactly what Roundy was talking about.
Except curves don't exist in video games.

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SupahLovah

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #289 on: July 01, 2010, 12:20:24 PM »
ONLY THE POLYGONS.
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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #290 on: July 01, 2010, 12:34:38 PM »

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #291 on: July 01, 2010, 02:00:07 PM »
All you did was through in a strawman argument. Call of Duty as far as video games go is extremely visually realistic and that is exactly what Roundy was talking about.
Except curves don't exist in video games.

Irrelevant. If the polygons are small enough, you would not be able to tell the difference between a curve and a series of lines.

Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #292 on: July 01, 2010, 02:30:26 PM »
All you did was through in a strawman argument. Call of Duty as far as video games go is extremely visually realistic and that is exactly what Roundy was talking about.
Except curves don't exist in video games.

Irrelevant. If the polygons are small enough, you would not be able to tell the difference between a curve and a series of lines.
Right, but this goes back to my point: What's easier to render, a plane, or a series of lines in such quantity that it looks like a curve?

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #293 on: July 01, 2010, 02:34:03 PM »
All you did was through in a strawman argument. Call of Duty as far as video games go is extremely visually realistic and that is exactly what Roundy was talking about.
Except curves don't exist in video games.

Irrelevant. If the polygons are small enough, you would not be able to tell the difference between a curve and a series of lines.
Right, but this goes back to my point: What's easier to render, a plane, or a series of lines in such quantity that it looks like a curve?

If video game creators only cared about making games with the least amount of effort we would still be playing pong.

Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #294 on: July 01, 2010, 02:38:42 PM »
All you did was through in a strawman argument. Call of Duty as far as video games go is extremely visually realistic and that is exactly what Roundy was talking about.
Except curves don't exist in video games.

Irrelevant. If the polygons are small enough, you would not be able to tell the difference between a curve and a series of lines.
Right, but this goes back to my point: What's easier to render, a plane, or a series of lines in such quantity that it looks like a curve?

If video game creators only cared about making games with the least amount of effort we would still be playing pong.
There's a difference between developer effort and processor effort. It's simple enough to model. But at any rate, there's also a difference between minimal effort and cutting an irrelevant corner. Something called optimization.

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Raver

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #295 on: July 01, 2010, 02:55:46 PM »
All you did was through in a strawman argument. Call of Duty as far as video games go is extremely visually realistic and that is exactly what Roundy was talking about.
Except curves don't exist in video games.

Irrelevant. If the polygons are small enough, you would not be able to tell the difference between a curve and a series of lines.
Right, but this goes back to my point: What's easier to render, a plane, or a series of lines in such quantity that it looks like a curve?

If video game creators only cared about making games with the least amount of effort we would still be playing pong.

Oh really? I think that video game creators care about making money with the least ammount of effort, so you are wrong. Pong doesn't make money because people always want more, better, etc. Video game makers want to make games as cheap as possible and sell them as expensive as possible.

Again I will give the example of CoD; it now has DLC which includes maps from the older CoD. So people are paying money to the video game makers, whereas the video game makers only had to port the map from game 1 to game 2.
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Raist

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #296 on: July 01, 2010, 08:51:15 PM »
All you did was through in a strawman argument. Call of Duty as far as video games go is extremely visually realistic and that is exactly what Roundy was talking about.
Except curves don't exist in video games.

Irrelevant. If the polygons are small enough, you would not be able to tell the difference between a curve and a series of lines.
Right, but this goes back to my point: What's easier to render, a plane, or a series of lines in such quantity that it looks like a curve?

If video game creators only cared about making games with the least amount of effort we would still be playing pong.


http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/06/14/pong-ps3-psp-leaked/

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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #297 on: July 01, 2010, 09:17:34 PM »
wow this thread is still going on? srlsy English Gent, u must answer GD's question.
A normal person would think that the games are flat due to programming it simply, as the curve is extremely subtle.
Do you think that they are einstein haters for not including the curvature of spacetime into their work? surley a bullet travelling nearly instantaneously on CoD would have some weird effects when you go into the kill cam

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Raver

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #298 on: July 02, 2010, 02:09:01 AM »
Btw, how many games actually have the scale in which it is even neccessary to add curvature to the earth? I can only think of flight sims...

The question at hand: There are games that DO add curvature to the game, silent hunter 3, 4 and 5 all show smoke beyond the horizon. Now you can argue with the whole perspective thing, but the devs added this feature because they believe the earth is round. So you see, there ARE game devs who think the earth is round.
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker --Flat earth video game?
« Reply #299 on: July 02, 2010, 08:12:53 AM »
Who said that every game developer is in on the counter conspiracy movement?  ???