Poll

Do you believe Rowbotham proved the earth is flat with his Bedford Level experiment, or do you believe light bends to create the illusion of a horizon?

Rowbotham proved earth is flat. There was no illusion.
5 (26.3%)
Light bends to create the illusion of a horizon.
14 (73.7%)

Total Members Voted: 19

Rowbotham vs Bendy Light

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Parsifal

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #150 on: July 04, 2009, 09:41:06 AM »
Anyone can write a wikipedia page. Show me the evidence that "Frames of reference" exist.

Look at a stationary object. Now start walking, and it appears to be moving. You are now in a different frame of reference, which affects your observations of your surroundings.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ignatio

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #151 on: July 04, 2009, 09:50:48 AM »
Anyone can write a wikipedia page. Show me the evidence that "Frames of reference" exist.

Look at a stationary object. Now start walking, and it appears to be moving. You are now in a different frame of reference, which affects your observations of your surroundings.

No it did not appear to be moving. I appeared to be moving.

Please do not continue to derail this thread. If you want to talk about imaginary things like unicorns, cyclops and frames of reference then open another thread.

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Parsifal

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #152 on: July 04, 2009, 09:52:11 AM »
No it did not appear to be moving. I appeared to be moving.

Really? You changed position relative to yourself? How did you manage that one?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ignatio

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #153 on: July 04, 2009, 09:53:44 AM »
Despite being told numerous times you are still trying to derail this thread.

I clearly need to raise this with a mod.

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Parsifal

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #154 on: July 04, 2009, 09:55:31 AM »
Despite being told numerous times you are still trying to derail this thread.

I clearly need to raise this with a mod.

I am not derailing anything, merely attempting to correct your hopeless understanding - or lack thereof - of physics, that you may better appreciate the discussion here. If you are not willing to educate yourself in terms of simple concepts in science, you have no place posting in a scientific debate forum. Please leave now.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ignatio

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #155 on: July 04, 2009, 10:28:58 AM »
I don't need to educate myself the facts are clear. Stop derailing threads with gibberish.

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Parsifal

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #156 on: July 04, 2009, 10:37:32 AM »
I don't need to educate myself the facts are clear. Stop derailing threads with gibberish.

I'm just about sick of you. Fuck off.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ignatio

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #157 on: July 04, 2009, 10:44:14 AM »
Reported for abusive language. Enjoy your ban.

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Jack

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #158 on: July 04, 2009, 01:34:19 PM »
Reported for abusive language. Enjoy your ban.
You clearly are the troll, for denying the existence of reference frames to start a reaction. Enjoy your ban.

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svenanders

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #159 on: July 04, 2009, 02:03:06 PM »
Reported for abusive language. Enjoy your ban.
You clearly are the troll, for denying the existence of reference frames to start a reaction. Enjoy your ban.

That was not fair Jack. Is ignorance a banable offense now?

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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #160 on: July 04, 2009, 04:09:31 PM »
Reported for abusive language. Enjoy your ban.
You clearly are the troll, for denying the existence of reference frames to start a reaction. Enjoy your ban.

That was not fair Jack. Is ignorance a banable offense now?
If you don't know reference points, than you shouldn't even be allowed on a computer.

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Jack

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #161 on: July 04, 2009, 04:49:36 PM »
That was not fair Jack. Is ignorance a banable offense now?
No, but blatant trolling is.

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zork

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #162 on: July 05, 2009, 12:32:36 PM »
That distortion of spacetime is called gravitation. Gravity is the gravitational pull the earth has on objects. The earth has mass. The masses used in the experiment were pieces of earth. Gravity was proven.
Don't bother. They have made agreement in this forum not to use term gravity as all other physicist use. bowler tried to clarify things up in Gravity thread(you may start reading from page 46) but no use. Couple of direct links to his messages
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19384.msg614828#msg614828
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19384.msg615894#msg615894
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19384.msg627319#msg627319
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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cdenley

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #163 on: July 06, 2009, 12:15:06 PM »
That distortion of spacetime is called gravitation. Gravity is the gravitational pull the earth has on objects. The earth has mass. The masses used in the experiment were pieces of earth. Gravity was proven.
The Earth only appears to attract objects in our frame of reference, because we have a limited view of the Universe. Accepting it as a real force is analogous to accepting red and green as the same colour because colour blind people can't tell the difference.
Whether it is accepted as a "real force" or not, the experiment proved gravitation (distortion of spacetime) does exist. Are you arguing that from another frame of reference, the distortion of spacetime might not exist, so gravitation/gravity might not be real even though we can prove otherwise in our frame of reference?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 12:16:41 PM by cdenley »

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julianmartin

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #164 on: July 06, 2009, 12:28:54 PM »
What circumstances? You complain about people not explaining themselves, yet you are as much a culprit as anyone else. Does light only sometimes bend then?

Light always bends, but if it reflects off the upper boundary between the materials, and then curves to go back up again before it reaches the lower boundary, the angle of incidence will be left unaltered. It is only if it makes it the whole way across the fibre that the angle of incidence will change. (Assuming a straight fibre, of course.


You're talking an alteration of direction of around 45 degrees there in the distance in the order of nanometres...! You can't be serious? On top of that you have no assurance that the bend will be in such a way that the light changes direction so much it overshoots the critical angle...?

What you and I see as a straight ruler, would not be straight in a composition of matter sense if light bent that much in that little distance - it would not feel straight to our senses either.

I'm arguing a more plausible bend (not that I believe it at all) which will alter the incidence angles a little bit every time it reflects, and after enough reflections it would eclipse the critical angle...

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Parsifal

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #165 on: July 06, 2009, 12:40:23 PM »
You're talking an alteration of direction of around 45 degrees there in the distance in the order of nanometres...!

No, I am not.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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julianmartin

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #166 on: July 06, 2009, 05:00:16 PM »
You're talking an alteration of direction of around 45 degrees there in the distance in the order of nanometres...!

No, I am not.

Even if I have my numbers wrong - 20 degrees in the order of centimetres (which is even more ridiculous), what you and I perceive by touch as a straight line, would appear completely different from a light perspective.

If you are "not" suggesting the changes I understand to be what you are insinuating - what on earth ARE you insinuating then?

You play your cards very close to your chest - constantly reluctant to explain yourself whereas I, and countless others, have been extremely liberal with their opinions in a very (mostly) generous and non-aggressive manner - explaining everything to the best of our collective understanding. You constantly allude to this image of extreme intelligence, but only hypocrisize yourself by refusing to explain your thought train unless asked very very directly. It's a bit tiresome to be honest - all you do is slow these debates down for no good reason apart from sitting on a high horse. Hence why I think you are a troll - as do many others.

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Parsifal

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #167 on: July 06, 2009, 07:15:31 PM »
Even if I have my numbers wrong - 20 degrees in the order of centimetres (which is even more ridiculous), what you and I perceive by touch as a straight line, would appear completely different from a light perspective.

If you are "not" suggesting the changes I understand to be what you are insinuating - what on earth ARE you insinuating then?

I don't know how to properly explain what I am insinuating because I do not know which part of what I said gave you the impression that you have. If you let me know how you came to the conclusion that I am advocating a bend of 45 degrees over the range of a few nanometres, I can better point out your error.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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julianmartin

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #168 on: July 12, 2009, 04:37:32 PM »
Even if I have my numbers wrong - 20 degrees in the order of centimetres (which is even more ridiculous), what you and I perceive by touch as a straight line, would appear completely different from a light perspective.

If you are "not" suggesting the changes I understand to be what you are insinuating - what on earth ARE you insinuating then?

I don't know how to properly explain what I am insinuating because I do not know which part of what I said gave you the impression that you have. If you let me know how you came to the conclusion that I am advocating a bend of 45 degrees over the range of a few nanometres, I can better point out your error.

As far as I understand it, you are suggesting a bend of light in fibre optics of the order in this image:


For starters, let me point out, it is ME, that has gone out of my way to draw something that you refuse to, just to try and grasp you ridiculous conceptions. Secondly, I apologise for the quality of drawing, it was a quick representation, and you should understand the idea behind it if this is really what you believe.

If this is not what you mean, then you seriously need to take the time to sit down and draw how you think fibre optics work with bending light in your mind in Microsoft Paint. This is exactly what I have done above, and I'm getting sick of your strange avoidance of drawing what you are insinuating.

If this REALLY isn't what you mean - then the way bending light would progress through a fibre optic would mean that the critical incidence angle of the optic would be achieved and all data would be lost. End of story.

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Parsifal

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #169 on: July 12, 2009, 04:47:23 PM »


Yes, that is what I am describing; however, I am not suggesting it occurs on that scale. If the angle of incidence were much, much greater - very close to 90 degrees - then the light could behave in that manner with only a very slight curvature.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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julianmartin

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #170 on: July 12, 2009, 04:55:23 PM »


Yes, that is what I am describing; however, I am not suggesting it occurs on that scale. If the angle of incidence were much, much greater - very close to 90 degrees - then the light could behave in that manner with only a very slight curvature.

So what scale are you suggesting it occurs on? Light manages to avoiding reflection for 3 miles in a fibre optic and then reflect in the way suggested? 20 miles? 1000 miles?

If it is minute, then said light would approach the critical angle, even with many reflections. There is no middle ground in this. Even if it was a massive arc in the order of a mile, a fibre optic would not work. They aren't constructed to work with those incidence angles and never will be. You can't explain their function on coincidence mate. Just give it up you youngun.

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Parsifal

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #171 on: July 12, 2009, 05:03:40 PM »
So what scale are you suggesting it occurs on? Light manages to avoiding reflection for 3 miles in a fibre optic and then reflect in the way suggested? 20 miles? 1000 miles?

It's possible.

If it is minute, then said light would approach the critical angle, even with many reflections. There is no middle ground in this. Even if it was a massive arc in the order of a mile, a fibre optic would not work. They aren't constructed to work with those incidence angles and never will be. You can't explain their function on coincidence mate. Just give it up you youngun.

You still haven't shown why the alternative case - where the light makes it the whole way across the fibre - would result in a decreasing angle of incidence. And please stop bringing my age into the debate, as it is entirely relevant to the subject at hand.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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julianmartin

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #172 on: July 12, 2009, 10:57:29 PM »
If the angle of incidence were much, much greater - very close to 90 degrees

I don't know how I missed this last night. Close to 90 degrees? Err...approaching the critical angle much?!

If you are talking about incidence angles of around 80 degrees, light would be lost. Well known and appreciated as that angle is quite beyond the critical angle of the majority of normal fibre optics.

As for the alternative case, I have described my hypothesis enough times now - read my posts properly and perhaps a book on optics. As I have said before, reluctant to make a diagram for you seeing as you can't even be bothered to make one yourself - thus I think you are a troll the majority of the time.

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Parsifal

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #173 on: July 12, 2009, 11:25:20 PM »
If the angle of incidence were much, much greater - very close to 90 degrees

I don't know how I missed this last night. Close to 90 degrees? Err...approaching the critical angle much?!

If you are talking about incidence angles of around 80 degrees, light would be lost. Well known and appreciated as that angle is quite beyond the critical angle of the majority of normal fibre optics.

Light is not lost if the angle of incidence is greater than the critical angle, only if it is less than the critical angle.

As for the alternative case, I have described my hypothesis enough times now - read my posts properly and perhaps a book on optics. As I have said before, reluctant to make a diagram for you seeing as you can't even be bothered to make one yourself - thus I think you are a troll the majority of the time.

You have identified that you think the angle of incidence would change over time, but you have not - as you claim - described why you think this. I'm not the one making the claim that the angle of incidence would change over time, so I don't deem it necessary to defend my case that fibre optics are compatible with curved light until you make a compelling argument against it.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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iznih

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #174 on: July 13, 2009, 06:05:57 AM »
i think you two are talking about two different angles. angle of incidence = angle between light ray and the direction perpendicular to the fibre. i guess that's what robo means

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Parsifal

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #175 on: July 13, 2009, 08:31:33 AM »
i think you two are talking about two different angles. angle of incidence = angle between light ray and the direction perpendicular to the fibre. i guess that's what robo means

That is what I mean, given that I was using the term "angle of incidence".
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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iznih

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #176 on: July 13, 2009, 09:43:30 AM »
yep, and that's the convention in physics afaik

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Parsifal

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #177 on: July 13, 2009, 09:44:46 AM »
yep, and that's the convention in physics afaik

That's what I've always known an angle of incidence to be.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Pcoff

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #178 on: July 14, 2009, 08:56:33 PM »
"Bendy light" is known as refraction, and it's caused by the air. Specifically, the different temperatures of air, and different concentrations. Very simple. Remember back in kindergarden, when they put the straw in the glass and it looked broken? Same principle. Do you understand? I hope you know what I mean...

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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Rowbotham vs Bendy Light
« Reply #179 on: July 14, 2009, 08:58:32 PM »
"Bendy light" is known as refraction, and it's caused by the air. Specifically, the different temperatures of air, and different concentrations. Very simple. Remember back in kindergarden, when they put the straw in the glass and it looked broken? Same principle. Do you understand? I hope you know what I mean...
Electromagnetic Acceleration, or "bendy light", is different than refraction.