FET is creationism, nothing more.

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James

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2009, 07:11:32 AM »
Of course, the hilarious irony is that Newton himself, when unable to explain the mechanism of gravity but merely describe it, basically concluded that God was perpetuating it. My colleague Mr Bishop, I believe, has the details of a number of sources which elucidate the embroilment in religion of this globularist hero.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
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Skeptek

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2009, 07:41:25 AM »
I am not an atheist, but most flat Earth believers are..
Strange how nobody is an atheist, and yet "most are" at the same time.

Just because the founder did so for religious reasons doesn't mean you can't believe them.
Yes, it does when religious reasons are the only ones.  It proves their belief is religious and not science.  The two exclude each other completely.

Mexico was discovered on a conquest for God, do you allow yourself to believe in it?
Non factual, and non-sequetor.  The fact that Europeans eventually found Mexico and murdered/raped/pillaged/enslaved it in the name of your "God" at some point in history, is meaningless here.  The land and people were there long before Jebus arrived.  My belief in Mexico was not dictated to me by a religious book written by a religious extremist.  Your belief in FET was.  Can your white-hooded mom drive you to the flat Earth?

Where are these "atheists" that you speak of?

Of course, the hilarious irony is that Newton himself, when unable to explain the mechanism of gravity but merely describe it, basically concluded that God was perpetuating it. My colleague Mr Bishop, I believe, has the details of a number of sources which elucidate the embroilment in religion of this globularist hero.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Aligning with the biggest bible-thumping wacko-troll around here is not a good way to argue that FET isn't creationism... if that's what you are trying to argue.

Tom Bishop is a liar and a troll.  There's no way to know what he actually believes.  Everything he references is based on Rowbotham's "work" which proves his stated beliefs are religious in nature and not related to science in the slightest.

My point has been proven well so far, thanks everyone.  I look forward to a real debate with an "FE'er Atheist" soon.
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Raist

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2009, 07:45:33 AM »
I'm the biggest bible thumping wacko around here? Wow.

Can you point out the last time I posted any religious views I have?

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Moon squirter

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2009, 07:52:39 AM »
Of course, the hilarious irony is that Newton himself, when unable to explain the mechanism of gravity but merely describe it, basically concluded that God was perpetuating it. My colleague Mr Bishop, I believe, has the details of a number of sources which elucidate the embroilment in religion of this globularist hero.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

This is a typical FE distraction.  Like all scientific work, Newton's contribution was judged on it's own scientific merits and not in the context of religious believe.

If the Pope published a paper on Dark Matter, it would likewise be judged on its core scientific content.
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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James

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2009, 07:57:53 AM »
I am not an atheist, but most flat Earth believers are..
Strange how nobody is an atheist, and yet "most are" at the same time.

Let's put an end to this ridiculous concern. I am not religious. John Davis is not religious. Daniel Shenton is not religious. Tom Bishop is not religious. Neeman is not religious. That's five of the most eminent living Flat Earth theorists so far who are not motivated by religion. I could continue, but I hope this list of leading players in the modern movement who are atheists or agnostics ought to assuage the notion that Zeteticism has any connection to religion.

Just because the founder did so for religious reasons doesn't mean you can't believe them.
Yes, it does when religious reasons are the only ones.  It proves their belief is religious and not science.  The two exclude each other completely.

No they don't, because scientific methods can be applied to claims which are relevant to religion. The shape of the Earth isn't relevant to religion, but nonetheless, the methods employed in Earth not a Globe (i.e., reliance on observational data) attest to its status as science.

Aligning with the biggest bible-thumping wacko-troll around here is not a good way to argue that FET isn't creationism... if that's what you are trying to argue.

Tom Bishop is a liar and a troll.  There's no way to know what he actually believes.  Everything he references is based on Rowbotham's "work" which proves his stated beliefs are religious in nature and not related to science in the slightest.

My point has been proven well so far, thanks everyone.  I look forward to a real debate with an "FE'er Atheist" soon.

Oh do shut up, I've known Tom Bishop for over three years and am far better equipped than you to make a judgement as to his sincerity. You simply do not have the faintest clue what you're talking about. Your offensive slurs towards my esteemed colleagues are inciting me to great anger, I suggest that you stop slandering them immediately.

I am one of many atheist Flat Earthers. I'm quite ready to engage you in 'real debate', now stop complaining.
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James

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2009, 08:00:42 AM »
Of course, the hilarious irony is that Newton himself, when unable to explain the mechanism of gravity but merely describe it, basically concluded that God was perpetuating it. My colleague Mr Bishop, I believe, has the details of a number of sources which elucidate the embroilment in religion of this globularist hero.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

This is a typical FE distraction.  Like all scientific work, Newton's contribution was judged on it's own scientific merits and not in the context of religious believe.

If the Pope published a paper on Dark Matter, it would likewise be judged on its core scientific content.


I absolutely agree, which is why the charge that the alleged religiousity of Rowbotham invalidates his work is completely baseless. I bring up Newton's own faith just as an illustrative example of the appaling double-standard which is being championed by the globularist who initiated this discussion.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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James

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2009, 09:10:51 AM »
When I read it synoptically with consideration of the cultural context of the publication, I thought, 'great job, Dr Rowbotham, a nod to religion will net you a far greater level of support from a large potential audience which might otherwise abhor you'.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Raist

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2009, 11:07:41 AM »
When I read it synoptically with consideration of the cultural context of the publication, I thought, 'great job, Dr Rowbotham, a nod to religion will net you a far greater level of support from a large potential audience which might otherwise abhor you'.

Hmm. So you thought Rowbotham was (deliberately) lying, and you somehow knew he was lying. Yet you though it was OK for him to lie in order to aquire a following that might not have occured if Rowbotham had not lied. In todays cultural context we call that deception.

Interesting.

Same could be said for di vinci. He made many works for churches and many religious paintings, but inside them you can find many intentional discrepancies hinting at his more atheist view.

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dyno

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2009, 05:21:40 PM »
When I read it synoptically with consideration of the cultural context of the publication, I thought, 'great job, Dr Rowbotham, a nod to religion will net you a far greater level of support from a large potential audience which might otherwise abhor you'.

Hmm. So you thought Rowbotham was (deliberately) lying, and you somehow knew he was lying. Yet you though it was OK for him to lie in order to aquire a following that might not have occured if Rowbotham had not lied. In todays cultural context we call that deception.

Interesting.

Same could be said for di vinci. He made many works for churches and many religious paintings, but inside them you can find many intentional discrepancies hinting at his more atheist view.

Dogplatter: So it's quite plausible that you would deceptively state FE evidence as factual when you knew it was a lie in order to gain a greater following? You've just condoned and possible endorsed this exact action.
It doesn't bode well for your credibility.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2009, 05:32:31 PM »
In the Victorian Era many scientists incorporated religion.

Just look at what Charles Darwin has to say on his religious convictions:

    "During these two years (i.e. October 1836 to January 1839) I was led to think much about religion. Whilst on board the Beagle I was quite orthodox, and I remember being heartily laughed at by several of the officers (though themselves orthodox) for quoting the Bible as an unanswerable authority on some point of morality. I suppose it was the novelty of the argument that amused them."
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 06:34:28 PM by Tom Bishop »

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James

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2009, 01:36:39 AM »
Globularists want to have their cake and eat it, too. It's fine and dandy when Newton, Darwin, or anyone else who isn't a Flat Earther rattles on about Christianity in their work. God forbid (no pun intended) that a zetetic scientist from the 1800s do the same!
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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James

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2009, 01:38:36 AM »
Dogplatter: So it's quite plausible that you would deceptively state FE evidence as factual when you knew it was a lie in order to gain a greater following? You've just condoned and possible endorsed this exact action.
It doesn't bode well for your credibility.

I can't really conceive of a modern-day scenario in which something like this would work. Science and religion, for example, aren't entangled any more, so being sincere about my atheism doesn't harm my reputation.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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James

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2009, 05:58:07 AM »
You know squat about the Victorian Zetetics. Their efforts were not generally profitable at all, often incurring substantial financial and personal sacrifice.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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markjo

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2009, 06:16:03 AM »
You know squat about the Victorian Zetetics. Their efforts were not generally profitable at all, often incurring substantial financial and personal sacrifice.

I don't know about that Dogplatter.  Rowbotham seemed to do pretty well for himself on the lecture circuit.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2009, 07:32:02 AM »
Unfortunately neither Darwin, Newton nor Da Vinci went on a massively profitable tour of the country proclaiming the Bible as literally true.

Please read the quote I provided. Charles Darwin published in his Autobiography that he believed scripture in the Bible to be literally true. Should we throw away Darwin's work because of those ideas?

No. Darwin's scientific work stands on it's own, just as Samuel Birley Rowbotham's work does.

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Raist

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2009, 07:43:49 AM »
Same could be said for di vinci.

In the Victorian Era many scientists incorporated religion.
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Globularists want to have their cake and eat it, too. It's fine and dandy when Newton, Darwin, or anyone else who isn't a Flat Earther rattles on about Christianity in their work. God forbid (no pun intended) that a zetetic scientist from the 1800s do the same!

Unfortunately neither Darwin, Newton nor Da Vinci went on a massively profitable tour of the country proclaiming the Bible as literally true.

I can't really conceive of a modern-day scenario in which something like this would work. Science and religion, for example, aren't entangled any more, so being sincere about my atheism doesn't harm my reputation.

It is a modern day scenario. You are promoting the work of someone you seem to claim deliberately decieved his readers (and attendees for his lectures). By attaching yourself to someone who decieves for profit your credibility is massively in question.

Yeah, Darwin went on a profitable tour of the world proclaiming the Bible true. Da vinci was payed handsomely by his king to paint scenes from the true bible.

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Raist

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2009, 07:46:47 AM »
Please read the quote I provided. Charles Darwin published in his Autobiography that he believed scripture in the Bible to be literally true.

No he didn't. The quote you gave shows Darwin reflecting on his early naivity before he had developed his theory of evolution. The article you linked chronicles Darwins increasing skepticism towards Christianity. Well done Tom, you've really out done yourself this time.

Ok. You do realize that charles darwin was a christian when he died. He didn't believe that all species originated from a single species. He only believed that evolution is responsible for the diversity of life on Earth. So good job claiming he was doubtful when he was developing his theory of evolution.

I bet the Monk Gregory Mendell was very doubtful when he was discovering traits were genetic.

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Raist

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2009, 07:48:04 AM »
Yeah, Darwin went on a profitable tour of the world proclaiming the Bible true.

Epic, epic lulz.

He went around the world, studying species, and proclaiming the gospel was true. This trip was profitable. Therefore he went on a profitable trip around the world proclaiming the bible true.

Do you not understand english?

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Raist

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2009, 08:03:05 AM »
Do you not understand english?

I do. I also understand that Darwin didn't go around the world proclaiming the gospel true.

As long as you keep trollin' I keep lolin'


Well he went from England to the Gollapogos. Correct? And that's pretty damn far, I'd say it's around the world. (figuratively if not literally)

Now, we showed a diary telling of him proclaiming the gospel as true while on the HSS Beagle. Would this not mean that he went around the world proclaiming the gospel true? (I am in no way implying intent, fucking read the sentence literally.)

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markjo

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2009, 01:20:00 PM »
Unfortunately neither Darwin, Newton nor Da Vinci went on a massively profitable tour of the country proclaiming the Bible as literally true.

Please read the quote I provided. Charles Darwin published in his Autobiography that he believed scripture in the Bible to be literally true. Should we throw away Darwin's work because of those ideas?

No. Darwin's scientific work stands on it's own, just as Samuel Birley Rowbotham's work does.

Yes, Darwin's scientific work stands on its own.  No, Rowbotham's scientific work doesn't stand on its own.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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cmdshft

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2009, 11:23:31 AM »
Globularists want to have their cake and eat it, too. It's fine and dandy when Newton, Darwin, or anyone else who isn't a Flat Earther rattles on about Christianity in their work. God forbid (no pun intended) that a zetetic scientist from the 1800s do the same!

As a Globularist, I condemn most of the past great minds for even acknowledging the religious influences in scientific studies. To go even further, I condemn the political populous for doing the same. I've also never denied that these same minds have not done so in an effort to debunk the ideas of Rowbotham.

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James

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2009, 02:18:45 PM »
Sorry Hara, I didn't intend universal qualification of that statement and shouldn't have used that phraseing. I mainly intended the globularists in this thread, though the statement might take a semi-general extension. I also would consider you not to be representative of the average globularist (which I mean in a good way).
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cmdshft

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2009, 02:31:57 PM »
Sorry Hara, I didn't intend universal qualification of that statement and shouldn't have used that phraseing. I mainly intended the globularists in this thread, though the statement might take a semi-general extension. I also would consider you not to be representative of the average globularist (which I mean in a good way).

It's all good, I was just putting a more informed spin on the whole religious outlook on things. Despite my being an Atheist, I am deeply interested in the teachings of religious texts and am really amazed at how often they have been used in explaining some scientific theories. But then again, can you really blame these individuals for doing so? The lack of technology is most likely the cause of this. In todays terms, we know that these are not the works of an omnipotent being, despite still lacking an explanation for the mechanics of how some things work, thanks to technology such as the LHC at CERN.

The more disturbing portrayal is, as I said, residing in the political sectors. "In God We Trust" is used far too much in the United States, and it's dangerous. It's the cause of sexual persecution, discrimination, et cetera. It's what drives politicians into volleying for the majority of religious voters (being that the leading religious system in the United States is Christianity), and so the politicians will try and cater to these blind individuals. I'm sure you know where I am getting at with this.

In the end, it's really not that avoidable. All we can really do is look the other way when these come up and try and focus on the more Zetetic and scientific aspects of our theories and work to further those.

Also, thanks for the recognition versus the globularist populous. I think it's proof enough by the types that come here.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2009, 07:44:08 PM »
Well, the vast majority of globularists are religious.  Judging by the activity here most FEers don't appear to be.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2009, 08:51:09 PM »
Well, the vast majority of globularists are religious.  Judging by the activity here most FEers don't appear to be.

LOL That's some of your best flawed logic yet.

But still, to recap:

Flat earth theory: Exists to prove Bible true.

Round Earth Theory: Exists because evidence independent of Bible was gathered.

I don't believe FET exists to prove the Bible true.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Proleg

Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2009, 09:02:27 PM »
Well, the vast majority of globularists are religious.  Judging by the activity here most FEers don't appear to be.

LOL That's some of your best flawed logic yet.

But still, to recap:

Flat earth theory: Exists to prove Bible true.

Round Earth Theory: Exists because evidence independent of Bible was gathered.

I don't believe FET exists to prove the Bible true.
If anything, it's the other way around.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2009, 09:09:06 PM »
Well, the vast majority of globularists are religious.  Judging by the activity here most FEers don't appear to be.

LOL That's some of your best flawed logic yet.

But still, to recap:

Flat earth theory: Exists to prove Bible true.

Round Earth Theory: Exists because evidence independent of Bible was gathered.

I don't believe FET exists to prove the Bible true.
If anything, it's the other way around.

That I agree with.  After all, it's been the opinion of the church that the Earth was round since the beginning.  Given the dogmatic beliefs of even the most progressive scientists of most of the Modern Era it's no surprise it's grown into the myth it has.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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James

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2009, 02:37:07 AM »
Sorry Hara, I didn't intend universal qualification of that statement and shouldn't have used that phraseing. I mainly intended the globularists in this thread, though the statement might take a semi-general extension. I also would consider you not to be representative of the average globularist (which I mean in a good way).

Interesting. Your post seems to indicate that you believe there are no flat earthers acknowledging religion in their work. (Much less identfying their religion as a fundamental truth in their work) And instead it's only the "globularists" who act in such a way.

I find this curious.

No it doesn't. I said this:

"Globularists want to have their cake and eat it, too. It's fine and dandy when Newton, Darwin, or anyone else who isn't a Flat Earther rattles on about Christianity in their work. God forbid (no pun intended) that a zetetic scientist from the 1800s do the same!"
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Proleg

Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2009, 05:31:51 PM »
The Zetetic Society disagree.
We are the Zetetic Society.

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Proleg

Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2009, 06:05:57 PM »
The Zetetic Society disagree.
We are the Zetetic Society.

No I'm afraid you're not. The remnants of the Zetetic Society died long ago.
If that's the case, why cite them?

And what does that video have to do with anything?