How does the Sun hold together?

  • 126 Replies
  • 14253 Views
*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #90 on: June 21, 2009, 01:21:19 AM »
If sustained hydrogen-hydrogen fusion has never been demonstrated to be a viable energy source in the lab, then why should we believe that sustained quark=antiquark annihilation is any more viable (let alone plausible) if it has never been demonstrated in the lab either?

More to the point, why should we consider it any less plausible?

The problem with Robosteve's idea (it does not quite classify as hypothesis) is not that the reaction is hard to start, as the hydrogen fusion is, but the contrary: quarks and anti-quarks will annihilate each other just by contact, so his Sun model (if you can call it so) would self destruct in a matter of a small fraction of a second (and, by the way, would destroy Earth and all of FE's Cosmos).

By contrast, a hydrogen nucleus has to smash at a very high speed against another to start the fusion process. It is so hard to achieve that even inside the real Sun only a slow burn happens.

The only place where unbound quarks and anti-quarks coexist without annihilating each other is in Robosteve's head. Nobody has ever proposed a set of conditions where this is even remotely possible. The closest thing to it happened during the first fractions of a second of the universe according to the Big Bang theory, and all the anti-matter got annihilated in fractions of a second, and the resulting universe only has matter in a stable state. And not even then does somebody propose a stable object made of unbound quarks and anti-quarks.

In response to the part of your statement in bold: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meson

Now, as I have said twice already, the strong force's repulsive nature at close range should be enough to keep the quarks separated.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

?

trig

  • 2240
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #91 on: June 21, 2009, 04:04:28 AM »


In response to the part of your statement in bold: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meson

Now, as I have said twice already, the strong force's repulsive nature at close range should be enough to keep the quarks separated.
A meson has a quark-antiquark pair that is bound. You have not shown even a hypothetical scenario where they are unbound and coexisting side by side, so that they might annihilate each other creating energy.

Now, as others have tried to explain more than twice already, "should be enough" is not a valid scientific argument at all. Why every unbound quark ever produced in an experiment has lived only for some nanoseconds but your quarks in the sun "should be enough" anything to make your argument viable?

"should be enough" is not a number, a distance, a part of a model, or part of a reasonable argument. It is just a desperate pray for the universe to take your side on a rant.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42317
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #92 on: June 21, 2009, 08:12:18 AM »
If sustained hydrogen-hydrogen fusion has never been demonstrated to be a viable energy source in the lab, then why should we believe that sustained quark=antiquark annihilation is any more viable (let alone plausible) if it has never been demonstrated in the lab either?

More to the point, why should we consider it any less plausible?

Because unbound quarks have never been observed for more than a few nanoseconds. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #93 on: June 21, 2009, 09:13:01 AM »
Because unbound quarks have never been observed for more than a few nanoseconds.

And nuclear fusion has never been performed in such a way as to liberate more energy than is required to initiate the reaction without blowing itself to pieces. I'd say FET is on a level footing with RET on this one.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42317
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #94 on: June 21, 2009, 11:33:35 AM »
Because unbound quarks have never been observed for more than a few nanoseconds.

And nuclear fusion has never been performed in such a way as to liberate more energy than is required to initiate the reaction without blowing itself to pieces. I'd say FET is on a level footing with RET on this one.

You would, but I wouldn't.  There is a difference between observing the raw materials of a reaction in a natural state and controlling the reaction under laboratory conditions.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #95 on: June 21, 2009, 06:20:32 PM »
You would, but I wouldn't.  There is a difference between observing the raw materials of a reaction in a natural state and controlling the reaction under laboratory conditions.

I take it, then, that you do not believe in neutron stars? You see, neutrons have never been observed in a stable state without protons mixed in.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

?

dyno

  • 562
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #96 on: June 21, 2009, 06:21:03 PM »
Because unbound quarks have never been observed for more than a few nanoseconds.

And nuclear fusion has never been performed in such a way as to liberate more energy than is required to initiate the reaction without blowing itself to pieces. I'd say FET is on a level footing with RET on this one.
Incorrect.
It's actually the energy required to sustain the reaction. These are all research reactors. The new generation reactors being built are larger and based on discoveries from previous work, should produce more energy than that fed into the plasma for the reaction. Fusion is based on science.
Your quark sun is based on your imagination. This is where is falls down.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #97 on: June 21, 2009, 06:22:04 PM »
Fusion is based on science.

Then show me the data that proves that nuclear fusion is a sustainable source of energy.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

?

dyno

  • 562
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #98 on: June 21, 2009, 06:24:06 PM »
You would, but I wouldn't.  There is a difference between observing the raw materials of a reaction in a natural state and controlling the reaction under laboratory conditions.

I take it, then, that you do not believe in neutron stars? You see, neutrons have never been observed in a stable state without protons mixed in.

Also incorrect.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/n00-01.htm
Neutrons have been isolated and contained.

What else have you got for us to refute?

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #99 on: June 21, 2009, 06:26:24 PM »
Also incorrect.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/n00-01.htm
Neutrons have been isolated and contained.

And what is the half-life of such a neutron?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

?

dyno

  • 562
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #100 on: June 21, 2009, 06:29:56 PM »
Relevance?
Neutron stars aren't neutrons produced in a particle accelerator.
They are atoms crushed under gravity into a state where protons and electrons are effectively neutrons.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #101 on: June 21, 2009, 06:45:40 PM »
Relevance?

See:

I take it, then, that you do not believe in neutron stars? You see, neutrons have never been observed in a stable state without protons mixed in.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42317
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #102 on: June 21, 2009, 07:25:45 PM »
You would, but I wouldn't.  There is a difference between observing the raw materials of a reaction in a natural state and controlling the reaction under laboratory conditions.

I take it, then, that you do not believe in neutron stars? You see, neutrons have never been observed in a stable state without protons mixed in.

I believe that our understanding of neutron stars is not yet complete.  To say that a neutron star consists only of neutrons is most likely an incorrect statement. 

Besides, neutrons are not mesons.  Neutrons are baryons and are not composed of quark-antiquark pairs so I'm not sure why you're bringing up neutron stars.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #103 on: June 21, 2009, 07:32:41 PM »
Besides, neutrons are not mesons.  Neutrons are baryons and are not composed of quark-antiquark pairs so I'm not sure why you're bringing up neutron stars.

You said:

There is a difference between observing the raw materials of a reaction in a natural state and controlling the reaction under laboratory conditions.

The raw materials of a neutron star have never been observed in a stable state.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42317
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #104 on: June 21, 2009, 07:41:33 PM »
Besides, neutrons are not mesons.  Neutrons are baryons and are not composed of quark-antiquark pairs so I'm not sure why you're bringing up neutron stars.

You said:

There is a difference between observing the raw materials of a reaction in a natural state and controlling the reaction under laboratory conditions.

The raw materials of a neutron star have never been observed in a stable state.

Are you proposing that the FE sun is a neutron star?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #105 on: June 21, 2009, 07:48:48 PM »
Are you proposing that the FE sun is a neutron star?

No, although that is a significant possibility for the Moon.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42317
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #106 on: June 21, 2009, 07:59:23 PM »
Are you proposing that the FE sun is a neutron star?

No, although that is a significant possibility for the Moon.

Then bringing up neutron stars in a discussion of the FE sun is irrelevant and off topic.  Would you care to propose another possible source of quarks and antiquarks for your theory of how the sun could sustain such a reaction?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #107 on: June 21, 2009, 08:21:15 PM »
Then bringing up neutron stars in a discussion of the FE sun is irrelevant and off topic.  Would you care to propose another possible source of quarks and antiquarks for your theory of how the sun could sustain such a reaction?

The quark-antiquark plasma was likely formed in some sort of cataclysmic explosion.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42317
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #108 on: June 21, 2009, 08:36:10 PM »
Then bringing up neutron stars in a discussion of the FE sun is irrelevant and off topic.  Would you care to propose another possible source of quarks and antiquarks for your theory of how the sun could sustain such a reaction?

The quark-antiquark plasma was likely formed in some sort of cataclysmic explosion.

And what do you suppose is keeping the quark-antiquark plasma from binding and/or annihilating all at once?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #109 on: June 21, 2009, 08:37:16 PM »
And what do you suppose is keeping the quark-antiquark plasma from binding and/or annihilating all at once?

The strong force.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42317
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #110 on: June 21, 2009, 08:46:31 PM »
And what do you suppose is keeping the quark-antiquark plasma from binding and/or annihilating all at once?

The strong force.

Nope, guess again.  Quarks and anti-quarks don't exist in an unbound state for more than a few nanoseconds after being liberated.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #111 on: June 21, 2009, 08:53:36 PM »
Nope, guess again.  Quarks and anti-quarks don't exist in an unbound state for more than a few nanoseconds after being liberated.

Well, if you would prefer you can think of the FE sun as one giant hadron, as for all intents and purposes it is a collection of quarks bound together by the strong force.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42317
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #112 on: June 21, 2009, 09:13:36 PM »
Nope, guess again.  Quarks and anti-quarks don't exist in an unbound state for more than a few nanoseconds after being liberated.

Well, if you would prefer you can think of the FE sun as one giant hadron, as for all intents and purposes it is a collection of quarks bound together by the strong force.

Then there would be no unbound quarks and antiquarks to be annihilated.  Also keep in mind that only mesons are made up of quark-antiquark pairs so none of the protons or neutrons in the hydrogen and helium that are present in the sun would would be available for unbinding and subsequent annihilation.  That and the fact that mesons typically have a mean lifetime of 10-12 seconds or less.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #113 on: June 21, 2009, 09:37:03 PM »
Then there would be no unbound quarks and antiquarks to be annihilated.  Also keep in mind that only mesons are made up of quark-antiquark pairs so none of the protons or neutrons in the hydrogen and helium that are present in the sun would would be available for unbinding and subsequent annihilation.  That and the fact that mesons typically have a mean lifetime of 10-12 seconds or less.

You do know that quarks are not tightly bound to a particular location within a hadron, right? If a quark and an antiquark come into contact, they could still conceivably liberate energy?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42317
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #114 on: June 21, 2009, 10:36:13 PM »
Then there would be no unbound quarks and antiquarks to be annihilated.  Also keep in mind that only mesons are made up of quark-antiquark pairs so none of the protons or neutrons in the hydrogen and helium that are present in the sun would would be available for unbinding and subsequent annihilation.  That and the fact that mesons typically have a mean lifetime of 10-12 seconds or less.

You do know that quarks are not tightly bound to a particular location within a hadron, right? If a quark and an antiquark come into contact, they could still conceivably liberate energy?

Sure, if you have a handy supply of antiquarks available.  Unfortunately, protons and neutrons are not sources of antiquarks and mesons have a very, very short life span.  So where are all of these antiquarks coming from?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #115 on: June 21, 2009, 10:56:59 PM »
Sure, if you have a handy supply of antiquarks available.  Unfortunately, protons and neutrons are not sources of antiquarks and mesons have a very, very short life span.  So where are all of these antiquarks coming from?

Inside the Sun.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42317
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #116 on: June 21, 2009, 11:06:24 PM »
Sure, if you have a handy supply of antiquarks available.  Unfortunately, protons and neutrons are not sources of antiquarks and mesons have a very, very short life span.  So where are all of these antiquarks coming from?

Inside the Sun.

Actually, I think that you'd be better off proposing a source outside of the sun, that way you don't have to worry about your entire supply of antiquarks being annihilated all at once.  Perhaps the shadow object or the anti-sun would be better ideas.  An anti-sun made of anti-matter that is slowly but steadily giving up its anti-particles in order to fuel the sun's matter-antimatter reaction sounds much more feasible than having both matter and antimatter together in one place.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #117 on: June 21, 2009, 11:16:05 PM »
Actually, I think that you'd be better off proposing a source outside of the sun, that way you don't have to worry about your entire supply of antiquarks being annihilated all at once.  Perhaps the shadow object or the anti-sun would be better ideas.  An anti-sun made of anti-matter that is slowly but steadily giving up its anti-particles in order to fuel the sun's matter-antimatter reaction sounds much more feasible than having both matter and antimatter together in one place.

No, that's silly.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42317
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #118 on: June 21, 2009, 11:29:56 PM »
Actually, I think that you'd be better off proposing a source outside of the sun, that way you don't have to worry about your entire supply of antiquarks being annihilated all at once.  Perhaps the shadow object or the anti-sun would be better ideas.  An anti-sun made of anti-matter that is slowly but steadily giving up its anti-particles in order to fuel the sun's matter-antimatter reaction sounds much more feasible than having both matter and antimatter together in one place.

No, that's silly.

How is that any more silly than large quantities of quarks and antiquarks existing together in an unbound state for thousands of years or more?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Parsifal

  • Official Member
  • 36118
  • Bendy Light specialist
Re: How does the Sun hold together?
« Reply #119 on: June 22, 2009, 05:28:32 AM »
How is that any more silly than large quantities of quarks and antiquarks existing together in an unbound state for thousands of years or more?

For one thing, the anti-Sun is underneath the Earth. We would notice any stream of antimatter between the two arcing across the sky. For another, going with your suggestion of the Shadow Object, we would see the Sun lit at a single bright spot on its surface where the antimatter hits it rather than homogeneously. The only sensible explanation is that the Sun is the source of its own power.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.