Ham Radio and Moonbounce

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #150 on: June 21, 2009, 04:41:33 PM »
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Damn.  I was at least expecting Bending Light or Gears.  Instead I've got "human perspective" for my troubles.  -Unfortunately perspective lines are linear.  The astral dome (and its movement) is spherical.

No one sees a spherical "dome". Over the course of the night some stars one one side of the horizon are ascending and some stars on the other side of the horizon are descending.

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julianmartin

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #151 on: June 21, 2009, 05:07:28 PM »
Quote
Damn.  I was at least expecting Bending Light or Gears.  Instead I've got "human perspective" for my troubles.  -Unfortunately perspective lines are linear.  The astral dome (and its movement) is spherical.

No one sees a spherical "dome". Over the course of the night some stars one one side of the horizon are ascending and some stars on the other side of the horizon are descending.

Are you blind?

Take this shit to another thread you ignorant tool.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #152 on: June 21, 2009, 05:17:53 PM »
Quote
I think that the residents of Scarborough might beg to differ (it's mostly residential, if I recall).

The scene in the Toronto picture isn't the residential neighborhoods of Scarborough, so the matter is immaterial.

Quote from: julianmartin link=topic=29694.msg726573#msg726573
Are you blind?

Take this shit to another thread you ignorant tool.

No one is obligated to discuss your topic. If you want to talk about radio signals or whatever, talk to your parent or guardian about it.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 05:29:13 PM by Tom Bishop »

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dyno

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #153 on: June 21, 2009, 06:11:00 PM »
Ah the sweet fairness of debate that is FET.
This is why I bagged out the mods.

You know they only reason they are running offtopic is because they don't have answers to your questions julian. This is actually as close as you will ever get to admission that they can't argue their case. It's what happens in all threads where FE loses ground.

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julianmartin

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #154 on: June 21, 2009, 10:39:00 PM »
No one is obligated to discuss your topic. If you want to talk about radio signals or whatever, talk to your parent or guardian about it.

Well common courtesy on the internet has always held that threads on forums should stay on topic; this forum has no reason why it shouldn't adhere to that. You have your own topic, there are threads elsewhere which are more relevant. It's just good manners Tom.

As for talking to my parent or guardian about radio signals? You can suck my dong and call me winston just for being a smart arse. Go give yourself a reacharound while your head is still up your arse and then come back with straightforward arguments that don't just play devils advocate for shits and giggles. You're infantile and annoying Tom, if you were a round earther, I'd probably switch my beliefs just to avoid being grouped in with a person like you.

Now please, back ON TOPIC.

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3 Tesla

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #155 on: June 22, 2009, 02:05:09 AM »
No one is obligated to discuss your topic. If you want to talk about radio signals or whatever, talk to your parent or guardian about it.

What a t*ss*r / w*nk*r / *rs*h*l* / m*r*n you are, Tom Bishop!
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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3 Tesla

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #156 on: June 22, 2009, 02:06:43 AM »
You're infantile and annoying Tom, if you were a round earther, I'd probably switch my beliefs just to avoid being grouped in with a person like you.

'Infantile'?

Great word!

I've only ever called him jeuvenille before, but you're right - he's far worse than that!
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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3 Tesla

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #157 on: June 22, 2009, 02:11:47 AM »
Guys please...

can this discussion go into another thread? It is seriously off topic, by a LONG way. I've hinted quite a few times now. I want someone to contribute to the debate on circumnavigational radio propagation.

I believe that I have challenged the Flat Earthers to come up with some diagrams to illustrate their proposed Flat-Earth wave paths ...

Because at present I find their ideas incredible / unbelievable.

(Compared to your simple, earth-to-ionosphere-and-back-again-all-around-the-globe model.)


Beyond that, I am unable to contribute further I'm afraid because they are being evasive and trying to avoid proper scrutiny of their theories.

As you say they are all infantile pr*cks who are only interested in winning arguments for the pathetic sake of it - they have no real desire to acquire real knowledge, it's just a stupid game for them.
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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julianmartin

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #158 on: June 22, 2009, 02:58:54 AM »
No no no I know, I'd just rather wait with no posts to prove that FE doesn't have an answer than have to wade through lots of stuff about toronto that ultimately I don't care about...

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3 Tesla

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #159 on: June 23, 2009, 03:17:07 AM »
No no no I know, I'd just rather wait with no posts to prove that FE doesn't have an answer than have to wade through lots of stuff about toronto that ultimately I don't care about...

So come on Flat Earthers:

Show (with diagrams) how this guy's radio signals can come back to him from behind.
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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julianmartin

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #160 on: June 23, 2009, 03:45:33 AM »
I've long resigned myself to not getting an answer on this one.

A serious win for Round Earth in my opinion.

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dyno

  • 562
Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #161 on: June 23, 2009, 03:53:51 AM »
perhaps you need to mimic their technique in order to elicit a response.
start spamming all of their threads with your question on radio signals.

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3 Tesla

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #162 on: June 23, 2009, 05:38:36 AM »
perhaps you need to mimic their technique in order to elicit a response.
start spamming all of their threads with your question on radio signals.

"When in Rome", and all that!
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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3 Tesla

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #163 on: June 24, 2009, 12:36:42 PM »
No no no I know, I'd just rather wait with no posts to prove that FE doesn't have an answer than have to wade through lots of stuff about toronto that ultimately I don't care about...

So come on Flat Earthers:

Show (with diagrams) how this guy's radio signals can come back to him from behind.

Still no proper explanation from the Flat Earthers?

Are you all conceding defeat?

(Admitting that the only way this can happen is if The World is a globe?)

Are you just going to stay silent and hope that this thread falls off page one like you did with my star-trails thread?

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=29590.0
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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julianmartin

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #164 on: June 25, 2009, 01:36:39 AM »
I'm on the edge of my seat waiting....!

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #165 on: June 25, 2009, 02:06:49 AM »
So come on Flat Earthers:

Show (with diagrams) how this guy's radio signals can come back to him from behind.

They don't.

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3 Tesla

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #166 on: June 25, 2009, 03:11:32 AM »
So come on Flat Earthers:

Show (with diagrams) how this guy's radio signals can come back to him from behind.

They don't.

So julianmartin is lying, but Lady Blount (flat Bedford Level pictures *) was telling the truth?

Edit 2: how do you know who to believe?

* Edit 1 - add reference:

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=29840.msg728707#msg728707
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 03:14:10 AM by 3 Tesla »
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #167 on: June 25, 2009, 10:09:19 AM »
So julianmartin is lying, but Lady Blount (flat Bedford Level pictures *) was telling the truth?

I'm not saying he's lying. He's just wrong. Here's what he said:

"Let me re-iterate. Directional Electromagnetic radition that circumnavigates the earth, is NOT possible on a dual flat plane of reflection; let alone omnidirectional. It would be emitted to into space."

This is obviously wrong, because it is freely admitted that Ham Radio and AM signals are not traveling in a straight line, but bounce between the ionosphere and the ground like rubber balls to reach far off destinations.

If this is happening at all directions and angles, obviously some of it will be reflected back when it hits the side of an angled hillside.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 10:12:06 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #168 on: June 25, 2009, 11:12:13 AM »
...it is freely admitted that Ham Radio and AM signals are not traveling in a straight line, but bounce between the ionosphere and the ground like rubber balls to reach far off destinations.

If this is happening at all directions and angles, obviously some of it will be reflected back when it hits the side of an angled hillside.

And then somehow magically re-appear from behind...?

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3 Tesla

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #169 on: June 25, 2009, 11:16:04 AM »
...it is freely admitted that Ham Radio and AM signals are not traveling in a straight line, but bounce between the ionosphere and the ground like rubber balls to reach far off destinations.

If this is happening at all directions and angles, obviously some of it will be reflected back when it hits the side of an angled hillside.

And then somehow magically re-appear from behind...?

It's being reflected by two angled hillsides?
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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3 Tesla

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #170 on: June 26, 2009, 12:17:55 AM »
...it is freely admitted that Ham Radio and AM signals are not traveling in a straight line, but bounce between the ionosphere and the ground like rubber balls to reach far off destinations.

If this is happening at all directions and angles, obviously some of it will be reflected back when it hits the side of an angled hillside.

And then somehow magically re-appear from behind...?

It's being reflected by two angled hillsides?

This is the kind of lame, unscientific and trite shallow-thinking that gives FET a bad name.

"Light bends upwards" (sunsets on the horizon), "light bends sideways" (sunrise and sunset bearings wrong), "it reflects off a hill-side" (trans-global radio waves), "dark energy holds the atmosphere in" (why we don't lose our air), "reflections off crystals in The Ice Wall" (Antarctic midnight sun), etc.
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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julianmartin

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #171 on: June 26, 2009, 03:19:37 AM »
So julianmartin is lying, but Lady Blount (flat Bedford Level pictures *) was telling the truth?

I'm not saying he's lying. He's just wrong. Here's what he said:

"Let me re-iterate. Directional Electromagnetic radition that circumnavigates the earth, is NOT possible on a dual flat plane of reflection; let alone omnidirectional. It would be emitted to into space."

This is obviously wrong, because it is freely admitted that Ham Radio and AM signals are not traveling in a straight line, but bounce between the ionosphere and the ground like rubber balls to reach far off destinations.

If this is happening at all directions and angles, obviously some of it will be reflected back when it hits the side of an angled hillside.

Let me re-explain that sentence, in doing so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt Tom that you slightly misunderstood what I said.

It is possible to emit a signal in a very concentrated beam that is entirely directional using the correct antenna (example, Yagi Beam. My beam antenna is a Hex Beam, one of these: http://www.hexbeam.com/ (just so you don't think I'm dicking you around)), and can only be received by people in the immediate path of transmission; and that stays true for many thousands of miles. Now on top of that, after an appropriate amount of time (which varies), one's signal can be received by oneself by an antenna that is oppositely arranged to the original transmission antenna. Now let me break it down further. The signal is entirely focused in the horizontal plane, we have already covered that. In the vertical plane...guess what, it's the same thing!! A nice pretty picture below shows EXACTLY what happens:



So the reflects can continue all around the globe. It is HIGHLY important in this theory that the waves are directional. What changes their direction are the various reflections. And bear in mind, only their vertical plane direction is changing, not their horizontal.

Now I mentioned it working with omnidirectional antennas too. In some circumstances the same thing can happen where part of the emitted signal reaches the ionosphere (pretty much all of it will, but at that height it is greatly dispersed), gets a good bit of propagation, bounces down to earth like the rest of the signal but perhaps a lot further, and by chance travels through atmosphere much more suitable for signal strength preservation, then the process is identical to what I have listed above.

Another sidepoint here - in roundearth, pretty much all long range communications (post 2000 miles I would say) that rely on HF signals, bounce off the ionosphere to get to their destination. From a round earth perspective, this is how radio signals get over the problem of the round earth and it otherwise being in the way for shorter wavelength signals.

I will have to modify the statement that on a flat earth, the signals would go into space. Ionospheric reflection depends wholly on angle of incidence. With a flat earth, this is probably going to be 90 degrees or thereabouts at the base of the atmosphere. The LIKELIHOOD is that it will be able to escape the ionosphere. Using appropriately adjusted transmissions, it's possible to ensure an HF signal to leave the atmosphere without being hindered too much. I know you will argue with this, but it's common knowledge that NASA use HF to talk to the ISS and their shuttles while in space.

Now it is possible on a flat earth, that the signal might not escape the atmosphere. In which case, this will happen:



Now it's difficult to say exactly what would happen at the base of the atmosphere in flat earth. Which is why I say it's likely it will escape to space. There would need to be some pretty interesting reflections to stop it doing so, possibly off your ice wall. But either way, however it happens, on a flat earth, the signal would ALWAYS be received in front of you rather than behind. And apologies for the poor pictures but you get the idea.

Hope that explains it better for you Tom.

I win again.

Edit:

Also in that flat earth picture, the angles of incidence due to the shape of your atmosphere would probably mean the majority of the signal would be lost to space before it could get to you.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 03:23:57 AM by julianmartin »

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3 Tesla

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #172 on: June 26, 2009, 05:08:19 AM »
This is the kind of lame, unscientific and trite shallow-thinking that gives FET a bad name.

"Light bends upwards" (sunsets on the horizon), "light bends sideways" (sunrise and sunset bearings wrong), "it reflects off a hill-side" (trans-global radio waves), "dark energy holds the atmosphere in" (why we don't lose our air), "reflections off crystals in The Ice Wall" (Antarctic midnight sun), etc.

You forgot "light bends downwards".

WTF ?!?!?
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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3 Tesla

  • 808
  • Flat Earth double agent
Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #173 on: June 26, 2009, 05:25:26 AM »
You forgot "light bends downwards".

WTF ?!?!?

as the earth is covered with an atmosphere of many miles in depth, the density of which gradually increases downwards to the surface, all the rays of light except those which are vertical, as they enter the upper stratum of air are arrested in their course of diffusion, and by Snell's Law bent downwards towards the earth;

I am utterly dumb-founded!
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #174 on: June 26, 2009, 09:04:46 AM »

I am utterly dumb-founded!

It's a pretty big club.  Pretty much anyone who's read a Tom Bishop post has joined.

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3 Tesla

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #175 on: June 26, 2009, 10:54:55 AM »
"Light bends upwards" (sunsets on the horizon), "light bends sideways" (sunrise and sunset bearings wrong), "it reflects off a hill-side" (trans-global radio waves), "dark energy holds the atmosphere in" (why we don't lose our air), "reflections off crystals in The Ice Wall" (Antarctic midnight sun), etc.

You forgot "light bends downwards".

I forgot another "Tom Bishop special":

"The atmosphere magnifies The Sun" (why a relatively close Sun doesn't shrink as it moves towards the horizon)
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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dyno

  • 562
Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #176 on: June 26, 2009, 06:41:52 PM »
You forgot "light bends downwards".

WTF ?!?!?

as the earth is covered with an atmosphere of many miles in depth, the density of which gradually increases downwards to the surface, all the rays of light except those which are vertical, as they enter the upper stratum of air are arrested in their course of diffusion, and by Snell's Law bent downwards towards the earth;

I believe this theory is falling out of favor among FEs. Watch for it's selected use.

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julianmartin

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #177 on: June 28, 2009, 01:00:46 PM »
So still waiting for your diagrams Flat Earth boys...! I've given you clear paths on the RE model. Only customary that it's your turn... ;)

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3 Tesla

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #178 on: June 29, 2009, 01:49:36 AM »
So still waiting for your diagrams Flat Earth boys...! I've given you clear paths on the RE model. Only customary that it's your turn... ;)

As I.B.M. manuals used to say:

This page has been left deliberately blank ...
"E pur si muove" ("And yet it moves"); Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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Skeptek

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Re: Ham Radio and Moonbounce
« Reply #179 on: June 29, 2009, 04:04:07 PM »
Tom is one odd critter, that's for sure.  I just cannot figure that guy out.

But, I too would love to hear and/or see an explanation of how an RF signal could circumnavigate a flat Earth.

Doesn't Tom have some magic system of parabolic dishes mounted all along the ice wall?  Come on, Tom!  Don't leave us hangin'!  How about any other FE'er?

What about Moonbounce?  Have we gotten and FE explanation for all of that?  My eyes rolled up into my head so far that I could no longer read after I saw Tom rape Snell's law, so I could not get through this entire thread.
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