What about the Dinosuars?

Quote from: markjo on June 22, 2009, 07:51:11 PM

Tom, I already conceded that the conventional wisdom of dinos being cold blooded may not be correct a few posts back.  Please try to keep up, will you?  Now will you please some evidence that otherwise land dwelling dinosaurs (cold blooded or warm) could swim long distances in arctic conditions.

Polar bears are excellent swimmers and can survive the coldest of oceans. I don't see what's so impossible for a dinosaur to be a good swimmer.

There is abundant evidence of the recreational swimming of land dwelling dinosaurs:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051018071725.htm

Tom, you keep going on about polar bears as if they have anything at all to do with dinosaurs.  Polar bears are mammals quite well adapted to an arctic environment.  Please provide some evidence that dinosaurs were adapted to arctic conditions. 

BTW, there is a substantial difference between "recreational" swimming and "endurance" swimming.

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on June 22, 2009, 08:12:46 PM

Quote from: mazty88 on June 22, 2009, 08:06:44 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 22, 2009, 08:01:58 PM

Quote from: KillaBee on June 22, 2009, 07:52:45 PM

No you're disagreeing with Dogplatter. He says dinosaurs propagated by building and sailing boats. You say they swam or walked accross ice sheets.

How can we find out who is right?

Where does Dogplatter say anything about sailboats? He just said that they could have built makeshift rafts:

"If you seriously don't believe that a bunch of people with their hands taped together can build a raft, you really ought to try it yourself. I assure you it is incredibly easy. Tie a slip knot in one withy, using it as a noose, tighten it around one of the logs, and then weave it between the other ones. At the other end of the raft, secure the withy with a second knot. You might find that using your teeth helps to manipulate the withy, but with a bit of practice it's quite easy to hold it between your "claws" especially if someone else holds it steady with their "claws" whilst you tie the knot. Simply repeat this process at a number of intervals down the logs until your raft is complete. Then push it towards a lake or river and set sail!!"

The truth is that they don't even need rafts, since a single giant redwood tree, the kind that are as thick as a house, is massive enough to support even the largest of dinosaurs.

Well if dinosaurs had the brain power to make rafts, how come most of them are extinct, and crocodiles aren't tearing up the waterways in speed boats?

Do you really think that if we were struck by the kind of catastrophe that killed the dinosaurs we would survive?

Let's see...
Last time I checked we had nuclear weapons, space flight, bunkers and electricity.
Yeah I think we could hold are own against nature, got just a slight advantage over the dinosaurs.

Like those things would help if we were suddenly struck by a comet the size of Texas, or a supervolcano exploded that blanketed the Earth in ash.  Please stop trolling the debate forums.

Lets see now...

Polar bears have thick waterproof fur and large partially webbed feet.

Dinosaurs (all of them, not just one variety) do not have thick waterproof fur and large partially webbed feet.

Y'see you've confused the specific with the general there Tom.

What does fur have to do with swimming? Did the man who swam 20 miles need any fur to do what he did?

We have no idea how insulated dinosaurs were internally.

Still I'm glad you're arguing that you're right and DogPlatter is wrong. Good to see you fighting your corner.

I'm not saying that Dogplatter is wrong. I'm saying that he's right: the fossil record is explanible without the necessity for Pangaea.

Tom, you keep going on about polar bears as if they have anything at all to do with dinosaurs.  Polar bears are mammals quite well adapted to an arctic environment.  Please provide some evidence that dinosaurs were adapted to arctic conditions.  

BTW, there is a substantial difference between "recreational" swimming and "endurance" swimming.

It's a good thing that dinosaurs thrived in "arctic conditions" then, huh?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/arcticdino/

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on June 22, 2009, 08:12:46 PM

Do you really think that if we were struck by the kind of catastrophe that killed the dinosaurs we would survive?

Protip: We did survive. Mammals. Remember?

No, we didn't.  Only small mammals survived.  We didn't exist at the time.

Quote from: mazty88 on June 22, 2009, 08:15:45 PM

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on June 22, 2009, 08:12:46 PM

Quote from: mazty88 on June 22, 2009, 08:06:44 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 22, 2009, 08:01:58 PM

Quote from: KillaBee on June 22, 2009, 07:52:45 PM

No you're disagreeing with Dogplatter. He says dinosaurs propagated by building and sailing boats. You say they swam or walked accross ice sheets.

How can we find out who is right?

Where does Dogplatter say anything about sailboats? He just said that they could have built makeshift rafts:

"If you seriously don't believe that a bunch of people with their hands taped together can build a raft, you really ought to try it yourself. I assure you it is incredibly easy. Tie a slip knot in one withy, using it as a noose, tighten it around one of the logs, and then weave it between the other ones. At the other end of the raft, secure the withy with a second knot. You might find that using your teeth helps to manipulate the withy, but with a bit of practice it's quite easy to hold it between your "claws" especially if someone else holds it steady with their "claws" whilst you tie the knot. Simply repeat this process at a number of intervals down the logs until your raft is complete. Then push it towards a lake or river and set sail!!"

The truth is that they don't even need rafts, since a single giant redwood tree, the kind that are as thick as a house, is massive enough to support even the largest of dinosaurs.

Well if dinosaurs had the brain power to make rafts, how come most of them are extinct, and crocodiles aren't tearing up the waterways in speed boats?

Do you really think that if we were struck by the kind of catastrophe that killed the dinosaurs we would survive?

Let's see...
Last time I checked we had nuclear weapons, space flight, bunkers and electricity.
Yeah I think we could hold are own against nature, got just a slight advantage over the dinosaurs.

Like those things would help if we were suddenly struck by a comet the size of Texas, or a supervolcano exploded that blanketed the Earth in ash.  Please stop trolling the debate forums.

Stop trolling.
You have no proof and post inane replies.
Fact is we have ICBMs on Earth. With quick modification you have a space ready nuclear arsenal. And guess what? COMETS DON'T APPEAR OUT OF NOWHERE!
As for a super volcano, they are not apocalyptic. Ingenuity can overcome them with hydroponic farms etc.

Fur has a lot to do with not dying when you're submerged in subzero water.

Did the man who swam 20 miles swim those 20 in the arctic?

Dinosaurs lived and thrived in Arctic conditions. Please educate yourself:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/arcticdino/program.html

Quote

Fur has a lot to do with not dying when you're submerged in subzero water.

Did the man who swam 20 miles swim those 20 in the arctic?

Dinosaurs lived and thrived in Arctic conditions. Please educate yourself:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/arcticdino/program.html

All of them? Wow.
Oh wait...

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 22, 2009, 08:23:54 PM

What does fur have to do with swimming? Did the man who swam 20 miles need any fur to do what he did?

Fur has a lot to do with not dying when you're submerged in subzero water.

Did the man who swam 20 miles swim those 20 in the arctic?

Seriously Tom the way you keep moving the goalposts in this game is tiring me out!

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 22, 2009, 08:23:54 PM

I'm not aying that Dogplatter is wrong. I'm saying that he's right: the fossil record is explanible without the necessity for Pangaea.

No. Your idea contradicts his. He says Dinosaurs built boats. You say they didn't.

How can we find out who's right?

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on June 22, 2009, 08:25:53 PM

Only small mammals survived.  We didn't exist at the time.

Yes. "We" were mammals. Dinosaurs died. Mammals didn't. Welcome to the rest of your life.

"We" didn't exist back then.  Nothing like us existed back then.

For the record, dinosaurs haven't died out.

Quote

Fur has a lot to do with not dying when you're submerged in subzero water.

Did the man who swam 20 miles swim those 20 in the arctic?

Dinosaurs lived and thrived in Arctic conditions. Please educate yourself:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/arcticdino/program.html

Have you had any personal experience of dinosaurs living in Arctic regions?

If Tom was a true FE Zetetetistist, he would be saying "we can't be sure dinosaurs actually lived in Arctic conditions because we weren't there".  Instead he conveniently stops "doubting" science at the right moments.

Have you had any personal experience of dinosaurs living in Arctic regions?

If Tom was a true FE Zetetetistist, he would be saying "we can't be sure dinosaurs actually lived in Arctic conditions because we weren't there".  Instead he conveniently stops "doubting" science at the right moments.

This isn't the Dinosaur Hoax Society. If you want to discuss your distrust of paleontologists take it to abovetopsecret.com.

Ok, a couple of things:


1. Just because dinosaurs could walk from Eurasia to North America, does not mean they couldn't have built boats. This is a nonsensical point killabee, so stop making it.

2. However, as Dogplatter has pointed out, the fossil record supports the idea of dinosaurs travelling by boats. Though they could still have walked across continents, the fossil record does not support this, as the fossils have been located in places which suggest ocean travel, and which do not suggest coastal migration.

Now, the dinosaur fossil record is notoriously weak, so there may yet be fossils awaiting us on the eastern Eurasian and western American coastlines which indicate that dinosaurs travelled by foot along these coasts to travel from one continent to another. But the evidence we have indicates ocean travel.

Ok, a couple of things:


1. Just because dinosaurs could walk from Eurasia to North America, does not mean they couldn't have built boats. This is a nonsensical point killabee, so stop making it.

2. However, as Dogplatter has pointed out, the fossil record supports the idea of dinosaurs travelling by boats. Though they could still have walked across continents, the fossil record does not support this, as the fossils have been located in places which suggest ocean travel, and which do not suggest coastal migration.

Dogs can walk. Can they build boats? Don't be so fucking retarded.
Of course dinosaurs didn't build boats, they weren't intelligent enough, nor did they have the ability to build boats. If there were boats, there would be evidence for rafts and tools.
Find me an animal other than a human who can build a sea-faring vessel. Otherwise your troll-shit is obvious.

Dogs can walk. Can they build boats?

Irrelevant.

Of course dinosaurs didn't build boats, they weren't intelligent enough, nor did they have the ability to build boats.

Conjecture.

If there were boats, there would be evidence for rafts and tools.

Any evidence for a wooden boat built millions of years ago is long gone and most likely in your gas tank by now.

...the fossil record supports the idea of dinosaurs travelling by boats

There is absolute no supporting evidence for this whatsoever.  It's pure fantasy.

Quote from: NEEMAN on June 23, 2009, 03:43:02 AM

...the fossil record supports the idea of dinosaurs travelling by boats

There is absolute no supporting evidence for this whatsoever.  It's pure fantasy.

Sorry, did you read Dogplatter's posts earlier? He gave clear evidence which showed that parts of the fossil record support the idea of a maritime culture among dinosaurs, and would be very unlikely (indeed near impossbile) in a 'pangea' scenario.

Quote from: Moon squirter on June 23, 2009, 05:25:56 AM

Quote from: NEEMAN on June 23, 2009, 03:43:02 AM

...the fossil record supports the idea of dinosaurs travelling by boats

There is absolute no supporting evidence for this whatsoever.  It's pure fantasy.

Sorry, did you read Dogplatter's posts earlier? He gave clear evidence which showed that parts of the fossil record support the idea of a maritime culture among dinosaurs, and would be very unlikely (indeed near impossbile) in a 'pangea' scenario.

Yes I did.  I cannot find any clear evidence.  Sorry.

Quote from: NEEMAN on June 23, 2009, 05:30:08 AM

Quote from: Moon squirter on June 23, 2009, 05:25:56 AM

Quote from: NEEMAN on June 23, 2009, 03:43:02 AM

...the fossil record supports the idea of dinosaurs travelling by boats

There is absolute no supporting evidence for this whatsoever.  It's pure fantasy.

Sorry, did you read Dogplatter's posts earlier? He gave clear evidence which showed that parts of the fossil record support the idea of a maritime culture among dinosaurs, and would be very unlikely (indeed near impossbile) in a 'pangea' scenario.

Yes I did.  I cannot find any clear evidence.  Sorry.

Well it is there, and it's very compelling.

Quote from: Moon squirter on June 23, 2009, 05:42:08 AM

Quote from: NEEMAN on June 23, 2009, 05:30:08 AM

Quote from: Moon squirter on June 23, 2009, 05:25:56 AM

Quote from: NEEMAN on June 23, 2009, 03:43:02 AM

...the fossil record supports the idea of dinosaurs travelling by boats

There is absolute no supporting evidence for this whatsoever.  It's pure fantasy.

Sorry, did you read Dogplatter's posts earlier? He gave clear evidence which showed that parts of the fossil record support the idea of a maritime culture among dinosaurs, and would be very unlikely (indeed near impossbile) in a 'pangea' scenario.

Yes I did.  I cannot find any clear evidence.  Sorry.

Well it is there, and it's very compelling.

Would care to "compel" it in my direction, please ?

You just said you've read it. Now, I can't remember all of it off the top of my head (especially the species' names), meaning I'd have to go looking for it if I wanted to repeat it accurately. But why would I do that if you can do the same thing? You don't even have to use the search function, because it's in this very topic. Just look.

...the fossil record supports the idea of dinosaurs travelling by boats

There is simply no independent evidence that contributes to this hypothesis; It is completely dependent on the lack of continental drift. 

You (and dogplatter?) could just as easily say: "the fossil record supports dinosaurs travelling by helicopter".  It would be better to say:

    "I think the evidence for Continental Drift is flawed.  Therefore there is currently no obvious
     explanation for the fossil record's distribution"

One thing we have to get used to here is that if (hypothetically) continental drift does not exist, there may be no way of knowing with any certainty how the fossil record was distributed.  One should not be afraid of uncertainty.

Quote from: mazty88 on June 23, 2009, 04:39:17 AM

Dogs can walk. Can they build boats?

Irrelevant.

No, I'm saying that no animal in the animal kingdom has shown the ability to create a sea-faring vessel. You are saying that dinsaurs invented the boat.
Do you really believe that?

Of course dinosaurs didn't build boats, they weren't intelligent enough, nor did they have the ability to build boats.

Conjecture.

See above point. It is the logical presumption that dinosaurs did not have the ability to build boats by what we can witness in the animal kingdom today..

If there were boats, there would be evidence for rafts and tools.

Any evidence for a wooden boat built millions of years ago is long gone and most likely in your gas tank by now.

So you then have no evidence?
Just like FET then. Until you can find a tool or boat, as Moon says, you may as well claim they travelled by helicopter. And that they invented lasers. And what made them extinct were aliens from another galaxy...

I'm saying that no animal in the animal kingdom has shown the ability to create a sea-faring vessel.

Here's several boats built by animals:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=lMm&um=1&q=floating+nest&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=21

Quote from: mazty88 on June 23, 2009, 06:33:44 AM

I'm saying that no animal in the animal kingdom has shown the ability to create a sea-faring vessel.

Here's several boats built by animals:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=lMm&um=1&q=floating+nest&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=21

They're not sea-faring by any stretch.

They're not sea-faring by any stretch.

Anything that floats is 'seafaring'.  If you don't believe me, go to Florida and ask a Cuban.

Quote from: Moon squirter on June 23, 2009, 08:08:01 AM

They're not sea-faring by any stretch.

Anything that floats is 'seafaring'.  If you don't believe me, go to Florida and ask a Cuban.

Oh yes because RACISM is always a valid argument.
Bugger off troll.

That's not racism, that's reality.  Some illegal immigrants desperate to leave the country actually come across floating on homemade rafts and doors or whatever they can find.

Can we please lock this thread?

That's not racism, that's reality.  Some illegal immigrants desperate to leave the country actually come across floating on homemade rafts and doors or whatever they can find.

And the dinosaurs used doors as well?
How about you find me some evidence for this raft building, then we will further this idea.