What about the Dinosuars?

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markjo

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #240 on: June 20, 2009, 07:08:28 PM »
There is no evidence that dinosaurs made boats.

There is baseless speculation that dinosaurs may have been able to make boats.

Fixed.

Yeah, that's great, except you have been totally unable to challenge what we have put forward in any logical way.

There is also speculation that reptilians populated the early earth with human slaves.  How do you make a logical challenge to such a claim?

The difference is this: we didn't just put forward a claim.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where it was demonstrated that dinosaurs had the range of motion, manual dexterity and intelligence required to build boats.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #241 on: June 20, 2009, 07:58:24 PM »
I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where it was demonstrated that dinosaurs had the range of motion, manual dexterity and intelligence required to build boats.

Who says that they need to build boats? A single giant redwood tree floating in the sea could easily support a dinosaur.

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markjo

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #242 on: June 20, 2009, 08:10:53 PM »
I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where it was demonstrated that dinosaurs had the range of motion, manual dexterity and intelligence required to build boats.

Who says that they need to build boats? A single giant redwood tree floating in the sea could easily support a dinosaur.

We aren't talking about the need to build boats, rather their ability to build boats which Dogplatter has repeatedly asserted that they did.
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BOGWarrior89

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #243 on: June 20, 2009, 11:14:30 PM »
There is no evidence that dinosaurs made boats.

There is baseless speculation that dinosaurs may have been able to make boats.

Fixed.

Yeah, that's great, except you have been totally unable to challenge what we have put forward in any logical way.

There is also speculation that reptilians populated the early earth with human slaves.  How do you make a logical challenge to such a claim?

The difference is this: we didn't just put forward a claim.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where it was demonstrated that dinosaurs had the range of motion, manual dexterity and intelligence required to build boats.

It is entirely plausible that dinosaurs developed their own methods for building boats that would circumvent their lack of thumbs and etc. that we have.  Unfortunately, since we did not need to circumvent, we can hardly be expected to suddenly see these methods.

On a related note: has anyone heard of the man who plays his guitar with his feet?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #244 on: June 21, 2009, 04:26:59 AM »
The difference is this: we didn't just put forward a claim.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where it was demonstrated that dinosaurs had the range of motion, manual dexterity and intelligence required to build boats.
[/quote]

No need to apologise, though I don't see what it has to do with what I said.

On a related note: has anyone heard of the man who plays his guitar with his feet?

Saw this just last night actually:




I think it's just hilarious that this can exist, and yet people can claim you couldn't build a boat without thumbs.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #245 on: June 21, 2009, 08:00:55 AM »
Quote
The difference is this: we didn't just put forward a claim.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where it was demonstrated that dinosaurs had the range of motion, manual dexterity and intelligence required to build boats.

No need to apologise, though I don't see what it has to do with what I said.

That's because you didn't make the claim, Dogplatter did.

Quote
On a related note: has anyone heard of the man who plays his guitar with his feet?

Saw this just last night actually:




I think it's just hilarious that this can exist, and yet people can claim you couldn't build a boat without thumbs.

Yes, because that is so much like boat building.  ::)
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #246 on: June 21, 2009, 08:21:22 AM »
I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where it was demonstrated that dinosaurs had the range of motion, manual dexterity and intelligence required to build boats.

Who says that they need to build boats? A single giant redwood tree floating in the sea could easily support a dinosaur.

You've never been at sea, have you?
Hast seen the white whale?

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Robbyj

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #247 on: June 21, 2009, 08:30:05 AM »
You've never been at sea, have you?

Traversing the pacific on a tree present day would be extremely difficult if not impossible, I agree.  In the time of the dinosaurs, however, the continents would have been much closer together.
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

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markjo

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #248 on: June 21, 2009, 08:44:57 AM »
You've never been at sea, have you?

Traversing the pacific on a tree present day would be extremely difficult if not impossible, I agree.  In the time of the dinosaurs, however, the continents would have been much closer together.

Some might contend that the continents were so close that the dinosaurs could have walked.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Robbyj

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #249 on: June 21, 2009, 08:46:34 AM »
Although a solid contention, it is much less entertaining of an idea.   ;)
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #250 on: June 21, 2009, 08:47:51 AM »
You've never been at sea, have you?

It's not impossible to swim from the US to Asia. You can actually see Russia from the tip of Alaska. The nearest Russian landmass is just 1.5 miles away.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 08:51:29 AM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #251 on: June 21, 2009, 08:50:20 AM »
Although a solid contention, it is much less entertaining of an idea.   ;)

Ahhh...  So now we're arguing scientific theory from its entertainment value.  That explains a lot.  Then again, this is TFES. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Robbyj

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #252 on: June 21, 2009, 08:52:20 AM »
Although a solid contention, it is much less entertaining of an idea.   ;)

Ahhh...  So now we're arguing scientific theory from its entertainment value.  That explains a lot.  Then again, this is TFES. 

Either way, they get to the other side.
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #253 on: June 21, 2009, 11:18:56 AM »
Quote
The difference is this: we didn't just put forward a claim.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where it was demonstrated that dinosaurs had the range of motion, manual dexterity and intelligence required to build boats.

No need to apologise, though I don't see what it has to do with what I said.

That's because you didn't make the claim, Dogplatter did.

Not sure what you're getting at here, but what I was getting at is that just because we didn't 'demonstrate' that one thing, does not mean that we made nothing more than a claim.


Yes, because that is so much like boat building.  ::)

Oh come on. Seriously, as someone who plays guitar, I am certain it would be a lot more difficult to play guitar with my feet than it would be to build a boat without thumbs. It simply highlights the absurdity of saying that if you don't have thumbs, you can't build boats.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #254 on: June 21, 2009, 11:29:34 AM »
Yes, because that is so much like boat building.  ::)

Oh come on. Seriously, as someone who plays guitar, I am certain it would be a lot more difficult to play guitar with my feet than it would be to build a boat without thumbs. It simply highlights the absurdity of saying that if you don't have thumbs, you can't build boats.

When did I say that not having thumbs means that you can't build boats?  I'm saying that you need a certain amount of manual dexterity, range of motion and intelligence to build boats and no one has demonstrated that dinosaurs possessed sufficient levels of all three of those traits to build boats.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #255 on: June 21, 2009, 02:19:31 PM »
Yes, because that is so much like boat building.  ::)

Oh come on. Seriously, as someone who plays guitar, I am certain it would be a lot more difficult to play guitar with my feet than it would be to build a boat without thumbs. It simply highlights the absurdity of saying that if you don't have thumbs, you can't build boats.

When did I say that not having thumbs means that you can't build boats?  I'm saying that you need a certain amount of manual dexterity, range of motion and intelligence to build boats and no one has demonstrated that dinosaurs possessed sufficient levels of all three of those traits to build boats.

Maybe I should put www.rif.org in my sig, and see if there's any marked improvement in reading levels around here. I said:

Saw this just last night actually:



I think it's just hilarious that this can exist, and yet people can claim you couldn't build a boat without thumbs.

That's what I was talking about. When you replied, what were you talking about if not that?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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BOGWarrior89

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #256 on: June 21, 2009, 03:23:34 PM »
I think it's just hilarious that this can exist, and yet people can claim you couldn't build a boat without thumbs.

Exactly my next presented argument, old fiend!  Surely you are on the ball.

Yes, because that is so much like boat building.  ::)

Actually, quite more than you would expect.  Playing the guitar requires a great deal of manual dexterity, range of motion, and practicing.  And this is all before you add in the bulky feet.  And yet, there is such a being in existence that can do such a thing!

Surely, if I had laid claim to such a feat, you would have told me it is preposterous.  However, by the link NEEMAN so generously provided, you can see how you would be wrong.

Come now, don't play coy with me.  Make the leap.

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markjo

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #257 on: June 21, 2009, 06:28:03 PM »
Yes, because that is so much like boat building.  ::)

Oh come on. Seriously, as someone who plays guitar, I am certain it would be a lot more difficult to play guitar with my feet than it would be to build a boat without thumbs. It simply highlights the absurdity of saying that if you don't have thumbs, you can't build boats.

When did I say that not having thumbs means that you can't build boats?  I'm saying that you need a certain amount of manual dexterity, range of motion and intelligence to build boats and no one has demonstrated that dinosaurs possessed sufficient levels of all three of those traits to build boats.

Maybe I should put www.rif.org in my sig, and see if there's any marked improvement in reading levels around here. I said:

Saw this just last night actually:



I think it's just hilarious that this can exist, and yet people can claim you couldn't build a boat without thumbs.

That's what I was talking about. When you replied, what were you talking about if not that?

I'm talking about providing evidence that dinosaurs had the manual dexterity, range of motion and intelligence to build boats (which you haven't yet).  You are talking about a human playing guitar with his feet.  I am duly impressed with that guitar player's skill, but I fail to see what that has to do with dinosaurs building boats.  Now if you can show me a video of a dinosaur playing a guitar with its feet or a human building a boat with his feet, then you might have a point.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 06:30:25 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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BOGWarrior89

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #258 on: June 21, 2009, 06:50:08 PM »
markjo, are you saying you're not willing to even entertain the idea that dinosaurs could have built boats?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #259 on: June 21, 2009, 07:08:19 PM »
I'm talking about providing evidence that dinosaurs had the manual dexterity, range of motion and intelligence to build boats (which you haven't yet).  You are talking about a human playing guitar with his feet.  I am duly impressed with that guitar player's skill, but I fail to see what that has to do with dinosaurs building boats.  Now if you can show me a video of a dinosaur playing a guitar with its feet or a human building a boat with his feet, then you might have a point.

I wasn't speaking to you (specifically) when I spoke about the man playing guitar with his feet. I was speaking to BOGWarrior, and I was saying that it was a very good example of why the 'you need thumbs to make boats' argument (one which other people in this thread have made) was stupid.

Now, you may not have made that argument, but other people have, and in any case, I wasn't speaking to you in the first place, so I obviously was not using this video to say anything about the manual dexterity of dinosaurs etc. You just got that into your head somewhere along the line.


Now, as for this:

evidence that dinosaurs had the manual dexterity, range of motion and intelligence to build boats (which you haven't yet)

it has already been pointed out that 'evidence' is a very dodgy term in the context of this debate, as in truth we can only speculate about all of these things, and the same is true of anyone discussing dinosaur behaviour, even if their ideas are relatively conventional. I think that Dogplatter has made a convincing case for the possbility of intelligent dinosaurs based on the limited biological evidence available, and I'm not going to go into that again.

In terms of range of motion and manual dexterity, it seems almost certain that some dinosaurs had a greater degree manual dexterity etc than birds, who we know are capable of building tools. Dinosaurs had their mouths and four usable limbs, unlike birds, who have only their beaks and legs. Furthermore, I believe dinosaur claws and teeth may have given them a significant physical advantage over birds in the tool making process, as their claws could have been used as small blades when fashioning tools. Is it evidence? No, but the fact is that finding 'evidence' of behaviour patterns in creatures that have been dead for millions of years is nigh on impossible. The best we or anyone else can do is speculate.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 07:10:08 PM by NEEMAN »
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markjo

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #260 on: June 21, 2009, 07:43:31 PM »
markjo, are you saying you're not willing to even entertain the idea that dinosaurs could have built boats?

Not at all.  I'm just saying that there is insufficient evidence to support such an idea.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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BOGWarrior89

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #261 on: June 21, 2009, 07:59:03 PM »
markjo, are you saying you're not willing to even entertain the idea that dinosaurs could have built boats?

Not at all.  I'm just saying that there is insufficient evidence to support such an idea.

Which is to say you're not at all willing to even entertain such an idea.  Oh well, fair is fair.  Perhaps you'd be better off without so much empiricism in your life.

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markjo

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #262 on: June 21, 2009, 08:07:03 PM »
markjo, are you saying you're not willing to even entertain the idea that dinosaurs could have built boats?

Not at all.  I'm just saying that there is insufficient evidence to support such an idea.

Which is to say you're not at all willing to even entertain such an idea.  Oh well, fair is fair.  Perhaps you'd be better off without so much empiricism in your life.

Quite the contrary.  I find the idea of dinosaurs building boats to be quite entertaining.  In fact, I find it darned near hilarious.  I just said that there hasn't been any evidence provided to support that idea.  If someone could provide such evidence, then I'd be willing to give it more serious consideration.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Johannes

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #263 on: June 21, 2009, 08:31:35 PM »
markjo, are you saying you're not willing to even entertain the idea that dinosaurs could have built boats?

Not at all.  I'm just saying that there is insufficient evidence to support such an idea.

Which is to say you're not at all willing to even entertain such an idea.  Oh well, fair is fair.  Perhaps you'd be better off without so much empiricism in your life.

Quite the contrary.  I find the idea of dinosaurs building boats to be quite entertaining.  In fact, I find it darned near hilarious.  I just said that there hasn't been any evidence provided to support that idea.  If someone could provide such evidence, then I'd be willing to give it more serious consideration.

All scientists agree most dinosaurs were killed  by a giant flood. Life survived because dinosaurs built an ark. Its in the bible.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #264 on: June 22, 2009, 04:46:14 AM »
markjo, are you saying you're not willing to even entertain the idea that dinosaurs could have built boats?

Not at all.  I'm just saying that there is insufficient evidence to support such an idea.

Which is to say you're not at all willing to even entertain such an idea.  Oh well, fair is fair.  Perhaps you'd be better off without so much empiricism in your life.

Quite the contrary.  I find the idea of dinosaurs building boats to be quite entertaining.  In fact, I find it darned near hilarious.  I just said that there hasn't been any evidence provided to support that idea.  If someone could provide such evidence, then I'd be willing to give it more serious consideration.

And what we're saying is that providing you with evidence of dinosaur behaviour patterns (of any kind) is almost impossible.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #265 on: June 22, 2009, 05:09:55 AM »
markjo, are you saying you're not willing to even entertain the idea that dinosaurs could have built boats?

Not at all.  I'm just saying that there is insufficient evidence to support such an idea.

Which is to say you're not at all willing to even entertain such an idea.  Oh well, fair is fair.  Perhaps you'd be better off without so much empiricism in your life.

Quite the contrary.  I find the idea of dinosaurs building boats to be quite entertaining.  In fact, I find it darned near hilarious.  I just said that there hasn't been any evidence provided to support that idea.  If someone could provide such evidence, then I'd be willing to give it more serious consideration.

And what we're saying is that providing you with evidence of dinosaur behaviour patterns (of any kind) is almost impossible.

That sounds like your problem, not mine.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #266 on: June 22, 2009, 05:16:17 AM »
And what we're saying is that providing you with evidence of dinosaur behaviour patterns (of any kind) is almost impossible.

That sounds like your problem, not mine.

Me and any paleontologist interested in dinosaur behaviour, assuming your satisfaction was the primary goal.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #267 on: June 22, 2009, 08:12:19 AM »
And what we're saying is that providing you with evidence of dinosaur behaviour patterns (of any kind) is almost impossible.

That sounds like your problem, not mine.

Me and any paleontologist interested in dinosaur behaviour, assuming your the satisfaction of anyone in the scientific community was the primary goal.

Fixed that for you.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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BOGWarrior89

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #268 on: June 22, 2009, 09:04:18 AM »
And what we're saying is that providing you with evidence of dinosaur behaviour patterns (of any kind) is almost impossible.

That sounds like your problem, not mine.

Me and any paleontologist interested in dinosaur behaviour, assuming your the satisfaction of anyone in the scientific community was the primary goal.

Fixed that for you.

No you didn't.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #269 on: June 22, 2009, 09:05:35 AM »
And what we're saying is that providing you with evidence of dinosaur behaviour patterns (of any kind) is almost impossible.

That sounds like your problem, not mine.

Me and any paleontologist interested in dinosaur behaviour, assuming your the satisfaction of anyone in the scientific community was the primary goal.

Fixed that for you.


Um, you're still making the same point there markjo.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 12:41:56 PM by NEEMAN »
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord