What about the Dinosuars?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #120 on: May 30, 2009, 01:45:35 PM »
My belief is that this skill initially developed in the attempt to cross rivers or large lakes/gorges. They might then have taken to exploring the coastline, and using it to travel relatively free of attack. Then, having developed these skills, some dinosaurs may have been forced to migrate due to population pressure. There may be have been competition with other tribes, a sudden shortage of food- the same reasons that persuaded ancient humans to migrate.


Remember, humans didn't have any reason to believe they would make it to something other than water either.
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #121 on: May 30, 2009, 01:47:00 PM »
Now that we all know it should be possible for dino's to cross the ocean via boat the question of why would they want to comes in to play.

Why would a dinosaur think he would make it to something other than more water when he starts his journey?

What motivation would there be to explore?

Was their travel intentional or accidental?

You could easily ask the same questions of the earliest human explorers.
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James

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #122 on: May 30, 2009, 01:53:15 PM »
Now that we all know it should be possible for dino's to cross the ocean via boat the question of why would they want to comes in to play.

Why would a dinosaur think he would make it to something other than more water when he starts his journey?

What motivation would there be to explore?

Was their travel intentional or accidental?

Specifically in the case of the Deinonychus, I believe overpopulation to have been an issue. As I mentioned the rise of agriculture focussed on the meat farming of Saurolophus and other species would no doubt have caused a population explosion on the North American continent during the early cretaceous. Dwindling land and resources and increased overcrowding would have driven pioneers to seek new habitats.

By the way, in reference to a particular argument raised earlier, I would like to clarify that the EQ of Dromaeosaurids has been estimated at 5.8, several times higher than many animals alive today. It's interesting to know that even globularists scholars believe the Deinonychus and associated species to essentially have been smarter than dolphins and chimpanzees (I am still moderately sceptical of EQ as a reliable means for determining intelligence, but it's a relief to know that even if it is reliable, it doesn't rule out Dromaeosaurid civilisation).
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SirChuck

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #123 on: May 30, 2009, 03:20:55 PM »
You state things you think birds can do. And then say that there are things a bird can do that a dinosaur can't. Thus invalidating your parallel between dinosaurs and birds. I doubt you'll get this first time around so I'm prepared to have to repeat it later.

I have seen no evidence for this. You keep stating it as fact yet have posted no evidence. I will accept a youtube link of you (and friends) trying to build a boat with your thumbs taped up.

I have something better than a you-tube video for you, I have an example you can try at home. Fill the bathtub with water, and place a bar of soap on the side of the tub. Now we have set up a micro setting of what could be the ocean and something that floats. Now use your knee to knock the bar of soap into the water. Voila - You have made a boat ! An Exceptionally crude boat, but a boat.

I think you'll have to give them this one. It does not take brains or special body parts to make something float or even sea-worthy.

Why do you imagine the travel to be so hard ? Are you imagining a hurricane in the ocean and wondering how a stupid dino could have made a boat to withstand it? Maybe he couldn't, nobody here has said they were 100% in crossing the ocean. I'm sure if it happened at all that many of these dinosaurs didn't make the journey.

I might ask, if this particular dinosaur was a seafaring critter why don't we see their fossils in more parts of the world?

Some quick easy answers would include, we simply haven't found the fossils yet but they are there, or they died out before finding the next ocean.


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James

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #124 on: May 30, 2009, 03:33:56 PM »
I have seen no evidence for this. You keep stating it as fact yet have posted no evidence. I will accept a youtube link of you (and friends) trying to build a boat with your thumbs taped up.

Oh dear. Somebody is having a problem with reading comprehension. Let's recapitulate:

Oh, I didn't film this particular adventure, it was a demonstration for the benefit of sceptics who were present at the meeting.

You don't understand - I did not film this experiment, I said so already!

Look, I told you, twice, I didn't film it. I can't comply with your request because it's impossible, no such footage exists.

I don't have time to cover the same ground again, and my old group has disbanded. If you really have a massive problem believing that the relatively simple procedure of constructing a crude raft is possible with the digits of your hands taped together, you can perform the experiment yourself

I'm still waiting for your youtube video evidence of you building a boat without thumbs.

IT DOESN'T EXIST.

You're welcome to duplicate the experiment yourself and therefore observe it first hand.  Dogplatter told you how he did it.  It's unreasonable of you to demand youtube proof when he's told you multiple times it wasn't captured on video.

As for this youtube fixation of yours, it's yet another stupid idea you've decided to latch onto, seemingly in the vain hope that by scoring a single point, you will somehoe win the debate. Even putting aside the fact that the video does not exist, the whole point about valid experiments is that they are repeatable. A video of Dogplatter's experiment would prove nothing other than that Dogplatter videotaped what he claimed to be an excercise in boat/raft-buliding without thumbs.
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Rogherio

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #125 on: May 30, 2009, 06:21:05 PM »
The arguments against Dogplatters thesis continue to be in the same vein. I don't understand why it is so hard for you to comprehend what Dogplatter has previously said, that humans have been around for merely a tiny fraction of the time that dinosaurs were around for.  Any "family" that has been around for that period of time has a probability of becoming intelligent enough to move away from an overpopulated area to a less populated, more favorable area over water.

You just can't seem to move away from the (I hate to bring this up because its an overused, stale flat earth argument but...) conspiracy theory that all dinosaurs are thick.  Grow up and get over Jurassic Park! But then again, you seem to believe that anything on video is obviously true; I suggest you give this factual video a watch.



I made that to prove that sharks can fly out the water and bite aeroplanes.

Get real KillaBee; own up to the fact that you have countlessly had your arguments dissected, digested then excreted upon your person. You really gotta starting to smell by now...
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frostee

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #126 on: May 31, 2009, 05:04:46 AM »
Hmmmmm is it just me, or is KillaBee the RE Tom Bishop?
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Rogherio

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #127 on: May 31, 2009, 06:02:11 AM »
Is it me or is KallaBee a little bit... "slow"...
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frostee

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #128 on: May 31, 2009, 06:05:22 AM »
Sounds like Tom as well...
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Rogherio

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #129 on: May 31, 2009, 06:11:32 AM »
Haha. No comment...
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James

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #130 on: May 31, 2009, 06:18:30 AM »
Then we are agreed. You have no evidence for such an outlandish claim, and so have no right to repeat as fact something you have no evidence for.

As several other Round Earthers have already tried to point out to you, it's moronic to doubt that building a raft with your fingers taped together is impossible. Everyone else believes that it's possible, you're the only one who allegedly doubts it, you might as well drop it, because even other Round Earthers disagree with you.
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frostee

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #131 on: May 31, 2009, 06:21:45 AM »
Well thats not entirely true. I believe its possible, but difficult for a human. A dinosaur though? no way. I had a go at taping my thumb to my fingers, and well I dont think it quite gives the same result as no thumbs at all. And because I am not going to lop my thumbs off with hedge clippers to prove my point, we shall have to continue this argument in another way.
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James

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #132 on: May 31, 2009, 06:29:37 AM »
It is entirely true, then. You didn't deny my proposition (the second premise of my formal proof) that opposable thumbs are not required to build a boat. When your thumbs are taped to your index fingers, they are not opposable. You have stated that you believe building a boat is possible for a human with their thumbs taped together. Therefore, you concede that opposable thumbs are not required to build a boat.

Other Round Earthers in this thread have already been telling KillaBee to drop it.
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

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Rogherio

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #133 on: May 31, 2009, 09:22:27 AM »
Well thats not entirely true. I believe its possible, but difficult for a human. A dinosaur though? no way. I had a go at taping my thumb to my fingers, and well I dont think it quite gives the same result as no thumbs at all. And because I am not going to lop my thumbs off with hedge clippers to prove my point, we shall have to continue this argument in another way.

I still don't understand why it is so hard for you to get how it is possible that the dinosaurs were more intelligent than you assume...
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James

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #134 on: May 31, 2009, 09:36:46 AM »

If they believe it is possible, then it's without foundation. You have yet to post any evidence of this practical experiment of yours.

Why? Why is it impossible? Tell me why you think this easy task is impossible. You need to provide a reason for believing what intuitively seems to everybody else, globularist and zeteticist, a completely possible task, to be impossible. What is likely to prevent you from building a raft in the manner I have described when you have thumbs taped? What possible impediment are you going to come across in an activity which has no component parts which cannot be performed without the use of thumbs?

You know full well that the experiment is possible, I venture that you also suspect that the experiment occured. You are hammering away at a ridiculous denial purely because it's the only pitiful argument you can muster. Other, more mature globularists are willing to accept a completely plausible premise and take as fact my reporting of what is essentially an unremarkable and mundane event and critique other aspects of my argument in this thread, but you, being too puerile to engage in rational discussion except on the most basic level of petty naysaying, insist on repeatedly demanding something which doesn't exist. Put a sock in it, now.

Your tireless and repetitive contribution is a great displeasure to read for everybody involved, Round Earther or Flat. Other globularists are raising interesting points which warrant response and development along non-trivial lines of discussion. For this reason, I will no longer respond to any post you make in this thread which includes a request for a YouTube video. I will treat such requests as though they simply do not exist, since I have indicated, in this thread, a total of seven (7) times that such a video is not available. I highly encourage all the other posters involved in this discussion to do the same, so that we may continue the debate in an enjoyable and informative manner and make genuine progress towards evaluating the issue of the dinosaurs.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 09:38:44 AM by Dogplatter »
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sandokhan

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #135 on: May 31, 2009, 09:44:09 AM »
Ancient dinosaur depictions:



Bernifal Cave, France



Ishtar Gate


Sumatra: Bodrogi, Tibor, Art of Indonesia, plate #10, 1973



Zhou dynasty Fong, Wen ed., The Great Bronze Age of China, Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1980, p. 285



Jade: Shang dynasty



Mesopotamia 3300 i.e.n.: Moortgart, Anton, The Art of Ancient Mesopotamia, 1969, plate 292



Mosaic Roman: 200 e.n.



Mosaic Palestrina: Finley, The Light of the Past, 1965, p. 93



Petroglif: North American Anasazi Indians



Kuku Yalanji aboriginal tribe of Far North Queensland, Australia: CEN Technical Journal, Vol.12, No. 3, 1998, p. 345



Stegosaurus: Ta Prohm temple, Cambodgia



Wooden sculpture, Franta



Tribul Bambara, Mali



Nazca tombs, South America pottery



Moche tribe pottery



Acambaro figurines, Mexico



Manitou Springs, Colorado: Indian prayer figurines



Ch?teau de Blois tapestry



Athanasius Kircher's 1678 book Mundus Subterraneus



1496, Carlisle Cathedral

http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/ancient.htm

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James

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #136 on: May 31, 2009, 09:53:50 AM »
Here are some carved stones to add to that list of Dinosaur-related artwork:



They are allegedly peruvian in origin, though I personally believe them to have possibly been carved by dinosaurs themselves.

In the top-middle image, what appears to be a Dromaeosaurid holding an axe or hoe is depicted riding on the back of a Triceratops. Triceratops existed on the North American continent during the late cretaceous, which indicates that the dino-rider in question would have been a North-American Dromaeosaurus, descendant of the early cretaceous Deinonychuses who remained behind after the colonial period.

It is possible that these particular stones are human forgeries, though. In the bottom right, Stegosaurus and Triceratops are pictured side by side. Stegosaurus existed during the Jurassic period, whereas Triceratops existed during the late cretaceous. If they are in fact Dromaeosaurid carvings, this might be indicative that the North American Dromaeosaurus had some form of archaeology, or at least recounted then-extinct Jurassic dinosaurs in its folklore and histories.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 09:59:39 AM by Dogplatter »
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Rogherio

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #137 on: May 31, 2009, 10:55:14 AM »
Dogplatter, is it possible to get this guy banned from this thread? He's really starting to (as Peter Griffin would say) grind my gears.

I think that the suggestion that these carvings were done by the dinosaurs themselves; and thus that they have some kind of (at least crude) "archaeology" is perfectly plausible.  Early species of human recollected their hunts and folklore in carvings on their cave walls and there isn't any evidence suggesting that these primitive species have as complex a social structure as the thesis suggests that the Dromaeosaurids had.

Is there any evidence to say that these carvings definitely could not have been created by the Dromaeosaurids?
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #138 on: May 31, 2009, 12:45:33 PM »
I'll be honest, at first I thought Dogplatter's hypothesis as loony as any of you.  But after seeing all of the evidence he has built up for it I think the idea of intelligent seafaring dinosaurs is immensely plausible and should be given serious consideration by archaeologists and other academics, whether they believe the Earth to be flat or not, as an alternative to the truly ludicrous notion that all the continents happened to have been joined together in one giant supercontinent, and then happened to have been ripped apart.

I'm not saying that one idea is better than the other, based on the evidence, I'm simply saying that it's at best a draw.
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James

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #139 on: May 31, 2009, 01:58:18 PM »
Is there any evidence to say that these carvings definitely could not have been created by the Dromaeosaurids?

Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ica_stones#Uschuya_recantation



Haha, so the guy who discovered them "admitted" to forging them only once it became clear that if he didn't claim to have made them himself he'd go to prison? Boy, he just has to have been telling the truth on that one!

Even if they are fake, which they might well be, it doesn't really affect the main discussion, since you'll notice I already qualified my posting of them with a potential reason to doubt their authenticity (the inclusion of two species from seperate eras).
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Rogherio

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #140 on: May 31, 2009, 02:06:02 PM »
Almost every single statement in that wikipedia page needs citation or the link to the reference is conveniently broken. In fact much of the material in one of the references almost backs up what Dogplatter has been saying.

Next time find a real source. Wikipedia is not anywhere near reliable enough to give as "evidence". If I created myself an account, I could have written that article.

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Rogherio

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #141 on: May 31, 2009, 05:33:31 PM »
I think your point is made Dogplatter,

No one has come up with a sufficient comeback for the fact that the different sub-species were present on the separate continents but not Deinonychus itself. Not even Killabee here can explain that.

Adasaurus and Dromeosaurus MUST have migrated over water as the Pangea model is impossible.
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frostee

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #142 on: May 31, 2009, 06:12:27 PM »
Why is Pangea impossible? Plate tectonics is how its changed and the evidence for that is HUGE. Havent you ever seen the Ring of Fire map? that is NOT coincidence
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Rogherio

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #143 on: June 01, 2009, 07:33:13 AM »

It's already been shown that species can evolve and diverge on the same continent.



Yes they can, but how would all evidence of the predecessors of those species have completely disappeared from trace on the continents that the Adasaurus and Dromaeosaurus colonised? Unless they were never there...

This discussion is travelling in circles, all of this information is covered earlier in the thread or in the Thesis itself.
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James

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #144 on: June 01, 2009, 08:50:04 AM »
If your regional evolution theory were correct, Deinonychus fossils would statistically speaking be likely to be found both in Asia and America. Not a single Asian Deinonychus fossil has ever been found, though Adasaurus fossils are plentiful there.
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James

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #145 on: June 01, 2009, 09:01:31 AM »
By the standard of dinosaur archaeology, two specimens is plentiful. Many species are known from not even one complete specimen.
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Rogherio

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #146 on: June 01, 2009, 09:43:41 AM »

It's already been shown that species can evolve and diverge on the same continent.



Yes they can, but how would all evidence of the predecessors of those species have completely disappeared from trace on the continents that the Adasaurus and Dromaeosaurus colonised? Unless they were never there...

You still seem confused about regional evolution... yet strangely agree that Dinosaurs can evolve and diverge on the same continent.

Although it is dangerous to assume particular population spreads based on the scant few remains that have been found.


Still, this thread continues to provide daylee lolz

I perfectly understand the theory of evolution. It's you who is not able to grasp the concept that it is impossible for something to evolve from something that isn't there.
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James

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #147 on: June 02, 2009, 03:45:33 AM »
Then you don't know a thing about archaeology.
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Rogherio

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #148 on: June 02, 2009, 07:07:16 AM »
You don't know a thing about archaeology.

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Rogherio

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Re: What about the Dinosuars?
« Reply #149 on: June 02, 2009, 09:54:40 AM »
Then you don't know a thing about archaeology.

What I lack in knowledge of archaeology is more than made up by my understanding of statistics. And common sense. And language.

Unfortunately, these are useless in this argument unless you have at least a basic grounding in archaeology.  You can have most the statistical and common sensicle (I know thats not a word) argument but it would still be wrong.

It's a bit like arguing with a tutor about the theory of entropy. It doesn't really make much sense, and they speak Russian and the lectures don't really contain many of statistics... This doesn't debunk the theory; simply because its true, it works and you can prove it for yourself.
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