Sea Serpents & Dragons

  • 115 Replies
  • 33593 Views
?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2006, 08:39:47 AM »
Quote from: "googleSearch"
This is just a fraction of facts I could compile in 10 minutes, there are many many more sightings of dinosaurs all over the planet, but mostly in swamps of Africa and in Asia.


Interesting... I've never before heard somebody use the word "sightings" to mean "legends".
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2006, 08:56:21 AM »
Quote from: "Erasmus"


Interesting... I've never before heard somebody use the word "sightings" to mean "legends".


There is a first time for everything.

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2006, 09:06:24 AM »
Quote from: "Paradoxical"

I, for one, don't see how the existence of dragons today could upset the evolution theory. Apparently, they were strong enough to evolve, and stay around, after the ice age.

Isn't your theory says that dinosaurs went extinct 70 mill years before humans appeared, and geologic column "confirms" it because dinosaur fossils are found in lower layers of strata?

And here you have a lot of dinosaur sightings that are well documented in cultures all over the world.

Someone must be wrong, I'll say. It is either those hundreds of cultures that saw dinosaurs or people that sit in labs and theorize about stuff. Take your pick.

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2006, 01:12:44 AM »
One of the better sources of information I have come across with respect to cryptozoology and sea serpents in particular is Loren Coleman.  His original specialty was always bigfoot and yeti research of which he has been one of the most prominent researchers since the 1950's.  Coleman has written very informative books on other branches of cryptozoology including an awesome encyclopedia of sea serpents worldwide from ancient times to the present AND an encyclopedia of cryptozoology in general which is the best introduction that field of study I have come across.  The following two links provide more details about this great crytozoologist and denizen of knowledge:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loren_Coleman

http://www.lorencoleman.com

  I would be remiss not to mention the late French scientific researcher Bernard Heuvelmanns, oft desribed as the greatest zoologist of the twentieth century and the founder of cryptozoology.  Although most of his works were written in French, at least two very important ones have been translated into english.  His definitive 1963 book entitled 'In the Wake of the Sea Serpents' is the best book I have ever come across on that subject and would make a believer out of the most stubborn skeptic even in an unfriendly skeptical environment.  It contains a history of sea serpent sightings through several chapters from medieval times to the present including a detailed history of the increasing disbelief in their existence from the late nineteenth century up to the post WWII period.  It also contains a comprehensive classification of sea serpents into categories (the details of which prove the depth to which Heuvelmanns was familiar with the subject).  One example of the author's knowledge is one of the appendices containing a ten page list of sea serpent sightings worldwide from the 1660's to the 1960's.  'In the Wake of the Sea Serpents' was first published in english translation in 1968.  Combined with Coleman's book, they are a powerhouse of information on sea serpents.

  Heuvelmanns also authored (back in the 1950's) a definitve study of presumably extinct animals including both those who have been found alive and well such as the Coelacanth and those widely believed to be extinct such as dinosaurs, dodos, and sabre tooth tigres, et cetera.  This has also been translated into english.  It was reissued in the 1990's with a 200 page preface updating developments since it was first issued.

  As far as living pterodactyls, Mark Hall wrote a non-fiction book a few years back entitled 'Thunderbirds', which is now out of print to my knowledge.  

  Coleman's 'Encyclopedia of Cryptozoology:  A-Z' contains all this information and articles on animals of interest and biographies of key figures in the history of cryptozoology (and more informative articles) for anyone interested in becoming oriented with this field of study.  I found the book available through both Borders and Barnes & Noble.

- Dionysios

Re: Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2006, 03:01:00 PM »
Quote from: "Dionysios"
This post is a response to a challenge from Cinlef in a post initiated by the Grim Squeaker.


which post are you referring to?

?

Cinlef

  • The Elder Ones
  • 969
  • The Earth is a Sphere
Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2006, 07:47:07 PM »
Quote from: "googleSearch"

Someone must be wrong, I'll say. It is either those hundreds of cultures that saw dinosaurs or people that sit in labs and theorize about stuff. Take your pick.

googleSearch if there is one thing I've learned ever about anything its framing questions fairly is important. That framing is clearly biased. One could point out that people that sit in labs and theorize about stuff are right quite frequently, there is plenty of evidence  for that; the website where on right now the computer that we use to read it and post things, the automobile the airplane the toaster the fridge the radio the microwave, etc. are all made based on the principles discovered by people who sit in labs and thoerize about stuff.
So lets be fair.
I feel its incumbent on me to point out that the fact hundreds of cultures belief in something DOES NOT NESSECARILY MAKE IT TRUE. It is a good and valid point I'll grant you but it its not a complete case.

There are other possible explantions, Jungs universal subconsious theory that indicates certain things will always be imagined by human being cause thats how human beings think. Dinosaur bones (assume for a moment that Dinosaurs are seperate from dragons Dionysios) could easily inspire belief in dragons. In evolution theory the human race has common origin in Africa (I graps that many of you dont believe in evolution but bear with me) its possible that the dragon has a story created among the original group of humans htat survived albeit with distortion hundres of centuries of migration.
My point isnt to say dragons do not exist merely that several other possible explanations exists for the presence of dragons in many diverse cultures.
As to sightings of dragons since the belief in them is so widespread people  might leap to the conclusion a dragon is what they saw when all they really see is a fleeting shape in the distance.
Please note my point is not that dragons do not exists it is possible for dragons to exists regardless of whether evolutionism or creationism is true. My point was simply that all the arguments presented so far on behalf of dragons existing while legitimate is not nearly as overwhelming as googleSearch framing of the issue leads one to believe.
Ps Thanks or intiating this disscussion by the way Dionysios
An enraged
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2006, 05:59:46 AM »
Although it doesn't contain anything about dragons - however it is considered a rather valuble historical piece for describing early scandinavians - i was wondering if anyone here has heard of the Eaters of the Dead by Ahmad ibn al-'Abbās ibn Rashīd ibn Hammad ibn Fadlan (Ahmad ibn Fadlan). It is about a secretary to an ambassadorof the caliph of baghdad who is sent to along with a convoy to get some money out of a vassal state. Eventually he ends up meeting a people, commonly thought to be the Rus (which is the set of people who lended there name to Russia) and he ends up being dragged to the North. It basically ends with him witnessing a small war between the Rus and a rather hellish creature - who it is commonly thought may be remnants of the Neaderthal - It also refernces many other things that he saw, including sea monsters (probably whales) and the burial rituals for the Rus Chieftan (setting ablaze to a ship and a human sacrifice). Plus the battle techniquies - such as driving the blade into the belly and pushing it up the centre of the body such that it perforates the bottom of the heart - such that every strike lands a fatal blow - and medicinal technique - a man with a bad belly injury was given onion soup, if you could smell onions comming from the wound you knew that the man was going to die.


Obviously i mentioned this because of the Neaderthal's part - many historians suggest that his mentioning of this beastly human like animal that attacked him - the death eaters as it were - were a small group of neaderthals, one of the last groups - and it suggests that there was great animosity between neaderthal and Homo Homo Sapien.


Of course i have not read the original text of it (partially because i believe it no longer exists and secondly because my arabic ain't all that hot)

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2006, 02:59:51 PM »
Dr Quak,

  The idea for this post on dragons originated as Cinlef's idea in the following post by the 'Grim Squeaker' in the 'Everything Else' category:

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19010&highlight=&sid=6c803412f47e8ff56a99dbfc71590479#19010

  As to the book by Ibn Fadlan, I have read about it.  It is quoted in 'The Thirteenth Tribe' by Arthur Koestler (an excellent book).   The government of Rus at the time was the jewish Khazar clan which had converted to judaism in AD 749.  Unlike yourself, I would not reinterpret what was written by Ibn Fadlan by saying that sea monsters were probably whales, or claiming some creature as evidence for neanderthals.  You were certainly not there to insist that these sea monsters were actually whales.  I would accept Ibn Fadlan's descriptions of sea monsters as exactly what he desribed them.  This would apply to mention of sea monsters in other ancient writings as well, which are indeed evidences of their existence.

- Dionysios

?

6strings

  • The Elder Ones
  • 689
Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2006, 03:05:55 PM »
Dionysios, I have a few questions here:
If dinosaurs=dragons how would you explain the fact that we have not found evidence of wings on most of the fossils unearthed?
Also, how would you explain the many different types of fossils found, are these all dragons without wings?  How many of these dragons were herbivores?

Also, I what do you contend the mokèlé-mbèmbé is, then, given that most sightings describe it as a dinosaur (well, not necessarily most sightings, since many of the Pygmies who claim to have seen the mokèlé-mbèmbé point to a picture of a white rhino when asked what they saw), and given that you state dinosaurs=dragons, I find it odd that you would claim that the mokèlé-mbèmbé is not a dragon.

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2006, 05:32:25 PM »
6 strings, i beleive that Chinese Dragons do not have Wings, and it i beleive the western traditional dragon, as in what we think of, is a relatively new "design" with the massive wingspan and the fire breathing, etc.

i beleive the modern view of the dragon was made up along with the fable of Saint George killing it, but the older versions of the dragone were more serpent than sauropaud (i belevie that is the right term to discribe a "western" dragon if we are considering them to be dino's).


Have to say i would loke to see a "Thunderbird".... assuming i am adequatly protected from it, you know, eating me...

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2006, 05:57:53 PM »
The fact that Saint George killed a dragon is neither a fable nor something new.  This act occurred outside the city gate of Beirut, Lebanon in the late third century AD.  And that dragon which he killed did have wings and breathe fire.  Saint George is not only the patron saint of Britain, but he is also the patron saint of Ethiopia from a much earlier time.  The ikon of Saint George slaying this dragon is all over the country.  And it was this ikon of Saint George killing a dragon which was carried at the front line of the victorious battle over the Romans in AD 1896 at Adowa, and I believe he delivered the victory to them.  This Palestinian soldier was Emperor Diocletian's greatest single cause of consternation, so it is any wonder that he should be a paternal friend to the foremost of Rome's enemies even in modern times?

- Dionysios

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2006, 06:00:16 PM »
Quote from: "Dionysios"
The fact that Saint George killed a dragon is neither a fable nor something new.


So, is it your word against that of DrQuak, then?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2006, 06:03:01 PM »
All the depictions of dragons I have ever seen by Chinese do have wings.  The depictions I saw in China when I was there certainly had wings.  

  To the best of my knowledge, the Chinese are descendents of Japheth.  So why should their depictions of dragons be any different that those of their Japhetic brethren in europe?

- Dionysios

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2006, 06:06:54 PM »
Erasmus,

  It is the word of Dr Quak against all who believe themselves to be traditional or eastern Christians and ancient life of Saint George and historians of the third and fourth centuries who recorded it, not to mention the ikons which record it as well.

- Dionysios

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2006, 06:13:46 PM »
Quote from: "Dionysios"
It is the word of Dr Quak against all who believe themselves to be traditional or eastern Christians and ancient life of Saint George and historians of the third and fourth centuries who recorded it, not to mention the ikons which record it as well.


Certainly it only took one person to initially "record" the event.  All later depictions are merely copies of the original.  So really, it's DrQuak's word against the word of this supposed initial depicter, as yet unidentified and unverified.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2006, 06:31:53 PM »
hmmm every oriental dragon i had ever seen had no wings (or atleast none that would realistically help in flying, seen plent with fins) - but then most of my oriental experience is in San Francisco.


And by new i meant in the last 500 years, as opposed to the Oriental dragons which, i beleive, can be traced back over 1000 years.

most of what i have heard implied that the slaying of the story of the slaying of the dragon appeared several years after the death of Saint George to enhance his chances of becomming.... SAINT george.

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2006, 06:40:45 PM »
According to Saint George's life in the Synaxarion (Lives of the Saints), he died seven times as he was put to death that many times by Diocletian earning seven crowns in Heaven.

  His life does indicate it was an actual physical event.  The Lebanese princess bound outside the gate as food for the dragon was real, and the children who had already been eaten by the dragon had actually died.

  There are many real stories of Saint George involving posthumous miracles he performed, but I have only mentioned the one involving the dragon as it is  pertinent to this topic.

- Dionysios

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2006, 06:47:28 PM »
Dr_Quak,

You indicated you had seen plenty of representations of dragons with fins.  It seems that most of the discrepancy is due to the fact that as they are often represented with "fins," you interpret this as not having wings, while I interpret it in quite the opposite direction.

  Have you considered that the Chinese representations of dragons you saw (with fins) are merely a Chinese style depiction of the same kinds of beasts described in western accounts of dragons?

  On the lighter side, have you ever considered changing that name?  It's not exactly the most distinguished for someone involved in scientific debate.

- Dionysios

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2006, 06:47:51 PM »
Quote from: "Dionysios"
His life does indicate it was an actual physical event.


How does his life indicate this?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

?

6strings

  • The Elder Ones
  • 689
Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2006, 06:48:53 PM »
That's all well and good, Dionysios, if I put aside my abhorance to taking unproven legends as fact without physical evidence, but you still haven't answered my initial questions.

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2006, 07:01:57 PM »
i'm afraid the name is a knickname from childhood that i use for most things on line, because it is simple and gives little relation to myself in reality.

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2006, 07:08:38 PM »
also i am merely trying to apply logic to the existence of dragons.

Dragons seem to vary in size from about human sized to whale sized.


for something human sized to be able to fly it would probably require a good 12 foot wingspan (assuming it is about 6 foot tall) - i'm taking a 2  to 1 ratio based on an Albatross, which are about 3 feet tall 6 foot wingspan (i'm merely approximating from what i've seen with my own eyes, i didn't actually grab one and tie it down to measure it, but i beleive my numbers are relatively close)


and most dragons, are probably about 20/30 foot long. Western Dragons have a wing span that would probably suit this (although western dragons tend to be a lot more bulky than you would normally see in a flighted animal).


whereas oriental dragons' "wings" (taking them also to be about 20/30 foot long) have about a 5 foot "wingspan".

which would probably do the job for swimin, but not for flying.

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2006, 07:21:21 PM »
Dr_Quak,

  Have you taken into account the ability to contract and expand even dramatically?  I would not have thought of this but for two accounts of dragons in the 1880's as recorded by Betty Sanders Garner.  They were very possibly one and the same dragon given all the details except for the dramatic difference in stoutness.  The thin one in the desert southwest of america was exhausted apparently after a flight of at least many hundreds of miles, yet he was the same length as the one seen in southern California.  The accounts of the dragon of Lake Elizabeth in southern California were copied by Mrs. Garner from a late nineteenth century book entitled 'Stories of the Old West' by Don Bell.

  I have no knowledge of an on-line edition, but I refer you to Heuvelmann's 'In the Wake of the Sea Serpents' as a guide or for assistance with classification.  I will search for an on-line edition or at least an informative description.

- Dionysios

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2006, 07:23:49 PM »
Quote from: "Dionysios"
Have you taken into account the ability to contract and expand even dramatically?


Are you suggesting that there are dinosaurs alive today with skeletons that can drastically change in size over the course of a few hours?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2006, 07:29:21 PM »
No.  If you look closer at my post, you will notice I referred to a difference in stoutness in the example I gave (if they were indeed one and the same as the one from California has never again materialized to my knowledge).  I had in mind the fact that the skeleton was the same size when I had pointed out they were the same length.  I was not referring to skeletal contraction nor skeletal expansion when I said that.

- Dionysios

*

James

  • Flat Earther
  • The Elder Ones
  • 5613
Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2006, 07:39:12 PM »
Quote from: "6strings"

If dinosaurs=dragons how would you explain the fact that we have not found evidence of wings on most of the fossils unearthed?
Also, how would you explain the many different types of fossils found, are these all dragons without wings?  How many of these dragons were herbivores?


The tissue, muscle and bone which makes up wings on any animal is almost always very light - how else would it facilitate flight? I'd say that wings are one of the least likely physical structures to be preserved in a fossil - they're external, attached to the body at a very small contact area, and have small mass and very little fossilisable content (skin and membranes never produce fossils - only hard body constructs like bone).
"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901

?

6strings

  • The Elder Ones
  • 689
Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2006, 07:48:21 PM »
Quote
The tissue, muscle and bone which makes up wings on any animal is almost always very light - how else would it facilitate flight? I'd say that wings are one of the least likely physical structures to be preserved in a fossil - they're external, attached to the body at a very small contact area, and have small mass and very little fossilisable content (skin and membranes never produce fossils - only hard body constructs like bone).

Granted, but these would be enormous wings, given that the dragon/dinosaurs are generally said to be very large, and given the number of fossils unearthed, one would expect to have found at least some indication that these creatures had wings.  Also note that none of the rest of the skeleton indicates that these creatues had wings (joints would be necessary, to attatch them to the rest of the body).

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2006, 07:51:08 PM »
Quote from: "Dionysios"
No.  If you look closer at my post, you will notice I referred to a difference in stoutness in the example I gave (if they were indeed one and the same as the one from California has never again materialized to my knowledge).  I had in mind the fact that the skeleton was the same size when I had pointed out they were the same length.  I was not referring to skeletal contraction nor skeletal expansion when I said that.


Aha.  So what, precisely, do you imagine to be expanding or contradicting when you say:

Quote
Have you taken into account the ability to contract and expand even dramatically?
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

?

Erasmus

  • The Elder Ones
  • 4242
Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2006, 07:52:29 PM »
Quote from: "Dogplatter"
I'd say that wings are one of the least likely physical structures to be preserved in a fossil - they're external, attached to the body at a very small contact area, and have small mass and very little fossilisable content (skin and membranes never produce fossils - only hard body constructs like bone).


How do you account for fossilized remains of early birds and borderline bird/dinosaurs?  Or fossilized remains of other flying (non-feathered) dinosaurs?  Certainly winged dragons ought not be very different.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

?

6strings

  • The Elder Ones
  • 689
Sea Serpents & Dragons
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2006, 07:53:37 PM »
Surely you mean bird/dragons, Erasmus?