Why believe in God?

For most, it's comforting. It's the belief that nothing is in vain. Most people can't handle Sisyphus' burdon.

Quote from: Benocrates on May 18, 2009, 07:22:51 PM

For most, it's comforting. It's the belief that nothing is in vain. Most people can't handle Sisyphus' burdon.

But then the belief is just self-comforting, with no reason behind it.  Such belief would be literally self-delusional.

Quote from: Benocrates on May 18, 2009, 07:22:51 PM

For most, it's comforting. It's the belief that nothing is in vain. Most people can't handle Sisyphus' burdon.

But then the belief is just self-comforting, with no reason behind it.  Such belief would be literally self-delusional.  Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that everything is in fact in vain.  Why should we have purpose?

Think of it like a landed Lord ruling over the peasants. The people need not see Him, but they know there is a hand ruling over their lives. They work His land, give tax to His tax collectors and He lets them live on His land. So, how can we, who are infinitely lesser in comparison to our G-d than these peasants are to their Lord, question His existence or Nature. We need only acknowledge that such a ruler is and everything is done according to their will.

Quote from: bridget on May 18, 2009, 07:29:53 PM

Think of it like a landed Lord ruling over the peasants. The people need not see Him, but they know there is a hand ruling over their lives. They work His land, give tax to His tax collectors and He lets them live on His land. So, how can we, who are infinitely lesser in comparison to our G-d than these peasants are to their Lord, question His existence or Nature. We need only acknowledge that such a ruler is and everything is done according to their will.

But why pay taxes if you don't actually know that a landlord exists?  Why not believe that his cronies are duping you and stealing your "tax" money?  Why believe in something without any actual evidence of it?

Quote from: bridget on May 18, 2009, 07:29:53 PM

Think of it like a landed Lord ruling over the peasants. The people need not see Him, but they know there is a hand ruling over their lives. They work His land, give tax to His tax collectors and He lets them live on His land. So, how can we, who are infinitely lesser in comparison to our G-d than these peasants are to their Lord, question His existence or Nature. We need only acknowledge that such a ruler is and everything is done according to their will.

But why pay taxes if you don't actually know that a landlord exists?  Why not believe that his cronies are duping you and stealing your "tax" money?  Why believe in something without any actual evidence of it?

Quote from: munkirench on May 18, 2009, 07:32:39 PM

Quote from: bridget on May 18, 2009, 07:29:53 PM

Think of it like a landed Lord ruling over the peasants. The people need not see Him, but they know there is a hand ruling over their lives. They work His land, give tax to His tax collectors and He lets them live on His land. So, how can we, who are infinitely lesser in comparison to our G-d than these peasants are to their Lord, question His existence or Nature. We need only acknowledge that such a ruler is and everything is done according to their will.

But why pay taxes if you don't actually know that a landlord exists?  Why not believe that his cronies are duping you and stealing your "tax" money?  Why believe in something without any actual evidence of it?

Because your parents have done it, and their parents have done it and so on and so forth (or back).

Quote from: bridget on May 18, 2009, 07:34:40 PM

Quote from: munkirench on May 18, 2009, 07:32:39 PM

Quote from: bridget on May 18, 2009, 07:29:53 PM

Think of it like a landed Lord ruling over the peasants. The people need not see Him, but they know there is a hand ruling over their lives. They work His land, give tax to His tax collectors and He lets them live on His land. So, how can we, who are infinitely lesser in comparison to our G-d than these peasants are to their Lord, question His existence or Nature. We need only acknowledge that such a ruler is and everything is done according to their will.

But why pay taxes if you don't actually know that a landlord exists?  Why not believe that his cronies are duping you and stealing your "tax" money?  Why believe in something without any actual evidence of it?

Because your parents have done it, and their parents have done it and so on and so forth (or back).

Shhhhhh....grownups are talking.

Quote from: munkirench on May 18, 2009, 07:25:09 PM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 18, 2009, 07:22:51 PM

For most, it's comforting. It's the belief that nothing is in vain. Most people can't handle Sisyphus' burdon.

But then the belief is just self-comforting, with no reason behind it.  Such belief would be literally self-delusional.  Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that everything is in fact in vain.  Why should we have purpose?

What makes self-delusion wrong. What about existence is not in vain (i.e. contingent). Purpose relieves existential anxiety.

Quote from: Benocrates on May 18, 2009, 07:31:58 PM

Quote from: munkirench on May 18, 2009, 07:25:09 PM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 18, 2009, 07:22:51 PM

For most, it's comforting. It's the belief that nothing is in vain. Most people can't handle Sisyphus' burdon.

But then the belief is just self-comforting, with no reason behind it.  Such belief would be literally self-delusional.  Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that everything is in fact in vain.  Why should we have purpose?

What makes self-delusion wrong. What about existence is not in vain (i.e. contingent). Purpose relieves existential anxiety.

It's not morally wrong, but it encourages and legitimizes the violation of natural rights of others.  Still, I'd rather have perpetual existential anxiety than lie to myself.

Quote from: Benocrates on May 18, 2009, 07:31:58 PM

Quote from: munkirench on May 18, 2009, 07:25:09 PM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 18, 2009, 07:22:51 PM

For most, it's comforting. It's the belief that nothing is in vain. Most people can't handle Sisyphus' burdon.

But then the belief is just self-comforting, with no reason behind it.  Such belief would be literally self-delusional.  Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that everything is in fact in vain.  Why should we have purpose?

What makes self-delusion wrong. What about existence is not in vain (i.e. contingent). Purpose relieves existential anxiety.

It's not morally wrong, but it encourages and legitimizes the violation of natural rights of others.  Still, I'd rather have perpetual existential anxiety than lie to myself.

This debate seems lackluster without an actual believer here...

Not trying to troll, trying to understand the mind of a believer.  I have not, as they say, been given the "gift" of faith.

Quote from: munkirench on May 18, 2009, 07:37:29 PM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 18, 2009, 07:31:58 PM

Quote from: munkirench on May 18, 2009, 07:25:09 PM

Quote from: Benocrates on May 18, 2009, 07:22:51 PM

For most, it's comforting. It's the belief that nothing is in vain. Most people can't handle Sisyphus' burdon.

But then the belief is just self-comforting, with no reason behind it.  Such belief would be literally self-delusional.  Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that everything is in fact in vain.  Why should we have purpose?

What makes self-delusion wrong. What about existence is not in vain (i.e. contingent). Purpose relieves existential anxiety.

It's not morally wrong, but it encourages and legitimizes the violation of natural rights of others.  Still, I'd rather have perpetual existential anxiety than lie to myself.

How can you justify natural rights without natural morality as a consiquence. And you may prefer existential anxiety, not everyone is like you.

Yeah, you can tell you have learned about Kant in class. But, why should there be any morality in the first place?

Where does that universal moral principle of do unto others... come from?

I stated before that there is no such thing as true natural morality.  I personally think that a general guideline of benevolence is a good idea because I'm selfish and I don't want other people to hurt me.  Also, I think that sentient beings have a right to live undisturbed.  If you want to delve into nonsentient beings, like animals or infants, I'm game, but it's not really my goal to discuss it.

I think that my version of morality is better than most others because it allows people to do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt anyone else.

I remember the negative form of Kant's ethics "Don't do unto others what you don't want to be done unto you". It is not a morality. It is a Nash equilibrium that proves to be an optimal strategy for the average Joe. This works well until a powerful 'unethical' group usurps its power and enslaves the weaker ones. It is fascinating how many religions have myths about the salvation from the evil doers.

Quote from: munkirench on May 18, 2009, 07:50:19 PM

I stated before that there is no such thing as true natural morality.  I personally think that a general guideline of benevolence is a good idea because I'm selfish and I don't want other people to hurt me.  Also, I think that sentient beings have a right to live undisturbed.  If you want to delve into nonsentient beings, like animals or infants, I'm game, but it's not really my goal to discuss it.

I think that my version of morality is better than most others because it allows people to do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt anyone else.

So you're a follower of Randian philosophy?

I know its biblical...I'm trying to get to the root of you're view of universal morality. I want to challenge you're claim that you can do whatever you want, as long as you don't hurt others. First, the most obvious, why bother following this. If for pragmatic reasons, i.e. so nobody hurts you, do you believe that the rest of the world will respect you're upholding of the universal morality and not hurt you wantonly? Clearly not, so why not do whatever you feel good about doing, as long as it increases you're own power. If there's nothing outside of your existence for you, why bother not making the most of it. Also, what about rejecting someones romantic advances. That clearly is hurting someone, but I'm sure you've done it. Do you believe you could live a life without wantonly hurting any other person?