Origin of the "Conspiracy"

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munkirench

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Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« on: April 22, 2009, 02:25:30 PM »
Flat Earth dogma states that there is a massive (or at least universally pervasive) conspiracy which spreads ideas concerning all of modern physics and cosmology.  Where did this conspiracy originate?  The idea of a round earth was conceived by ancient Greek philosophers, and was accepted as "truth" during the 1500s.  Surely the ancient Greeks were not in on the Conspiracy?  Especially since the Conspiracy revolves around getting funding for space-travel and research?  Same goes for the Renaissance... surely Galileo and Copernicus wouldn't have risked their lives taking on the Catholic Church just to start a Conspiracy?

Stipulating that there is indeed an active Conspiracy, how could it have started and been maintained in the face of the massive research into cosmology during the past 400 years?  Where would the "funds" that are the impetus for the Conspiracy have come from 400 years ago?  All of that research was done by people with telescopes in their back yards, not by orbiters.  They needed no funding, and they got no funding, yet they supposedly propagated a massive Conspiracy unsupported by scientific evidence (assuming that the technology for the "projectors" was developed during WWII, as FEers claim).
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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DD2014

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2009, 02:34:38 PM »
One more for RE. Huzza! ;D
I am from NASA, and I am here to disinform you...

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2009, 02:40:54 PM »
Flat Earth dogma states that there is a massive (or at least universally pervasive) conspiracy which spreads ideas concerning all of modern physics and cosmology.

Dogma?  :D 

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Where did this conspiracy originate?  The idea of a round earth was conceived by ancient Greek philosophers, and was accepted as "truth" during the 1500s.  Surely the ancient Greeks were not in on the Conspiracy?

Of course not, they were simply mistaken, as they were about the birth of fruit flies and quite a lot besides.

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Especially since the Conspiracy revolves around getting funding for space-travel and research?  Same goes for the Renaissance... surely Galileo and Copernicus wouldn't have risked their lives taking on the Catholic Church just to start a Conspiracy?

They didn't.  It's always been the position of the Catholic Church that the Earth is round.

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Stipulating that there is indeed an active Conspiracy, how could it have started and been maintained in the face of the massive research into cosmology during the past 400 years?  Where would the "funds" that are the impetus for the Conspiracy have come from 400 years ago?  All of that research was done by people with telescopes in their back yards, not by orbiters.  They needed no funding, and they got no funding, yet they supposedly propagated a massive Conspiracy unsupported by scientific evidence (assuming that the technology for the "projectors" was developed during WWII, as FEers claim).

It's never been proven that the Earth is round.  It's been assumed for a very long time (going back to the ancient Greeks, in fact) and any research prior to the Conspiracy that you think proves a round Earth doesn't; since a flat Earth was never even considered by mainstream science, it merely represents a misinterpretation of the data gathered.  The RE bias is so strong that the question was never simply "How is this possible?"; it's always been "How is this posssible on a round Earth?"  The modern Conspiracy began in the mid-50s, when Sputnik I first went into "orbit".

One more for RE. Huzza! ;D

Hardly.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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munkirench

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2009, 03:27:25 PM »
Why do FEers masturbate to semantics?  By "dogma", I was referring to the FAQ.  In fact, I think I will continue to refer to it as dogma, because besides the idea that the Earth is flat, the existence of a Conspiracy is the one thing which is consistent throughout all FEers.

In case you aren't aware of the scientific process, it does account for exception.  This is one of the main differences I see between science in general and the Flat Earth Society...

The FET was literally invented.  The ideas in the FET were designed, bit by bit, to match with simple visual observation, along with simple things like the changing seasons.

Science also starts at square 1 with theories invented to match with simple observation, but as exceptions to the invented rules are discovered, the theory is revised to account for the inconsistencies.  In this way, Science starts with a mish-mash of inaccuracy, and converges towards a simpler and more complete theory.  Example:  Quantum Field Theory and General Relativity both account for all everyday observations, and 99% of extreme observation, including observations made on extremely large and extremely small scales.  These theories are very general, and account for every observation of classical physics.  This property of generality makes them "good" theories... that is, theories which can be relied upon in a very broad range of situations.  The extremely few situations which they cannot account for are being studied so that a simpler and broader theory may be formed.  This convergence towards a single unification is what makes science special... it makes prediction simpler and simpler, and more accurate to match with observation.

FET, by contrast, is ad hoc... every exception must be accounted for by adding on to the theory... a divergence, instead of convergence.

Perhaps FEers aren't aware, but one of the main reason that scientists accept the Round Earth theory, and all of the classical and modern physics that go along with it, is because these theories make predictions which can be verified.  There is NO other reason.  These theories are accepted because they work, and they work over both common and uncommon situations.  By contrast, FE only accounts for common situations, and doesn't make any predictions.  Active vs. Reactive.

But back to the original purpose... Why did the Round Earth theory prevail over the Flat Earth Theory way back when Flat Earth was universally accepted?  I realize and accept the modern bias which might prevent "progressive" thought towards FET, but way back when, why would FET have failed and been rejected?  My opinion is that FET failed simply because it is false.  When two theories face off, the one which produces predictions which match observation the most accurately wins.  And that is exactly what happened... Round Earth theory was able to account for all of the things which the Flat Earth theory could not have.  Even such an unpopular idea as a heliocentric universe prevailed over the geocentric universe, simply because it matches with observations.

I posit that the only way for FET to be true in the face of modern physics is magic.  There is simply no way for modern physics to have failed to realize that the Earth is in fact flat, and the only way for such a discrepancy to actually exist is magic, not a Conspiracy.  A Conspiracy could never explain away all of the discrepancies without something like a Time Machine... in which case, they would have no need to propagate the Conspiracy.
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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DD2014

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2009, 05:43:20 PM »
One more for RE. Huzza! ;D

Hardly.

Hay, I'm not the one that actually belives in stupid shit.

Have you ever heard of Occam's razor?....Oh but you'll tell me he must have made it up so he could be in on the conspiracy.

Grow up...
I am from NASA, and I am here to disinform you...

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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2009, 06:43:55 PM »
One more for RE. Huzza! ;D

Hardly.

Hay, I'm not the one that actually belives in stupid shit.

Have you ever heard of Occam's razor?....Oh but you'll tell me he must have made it up so he could be in on the conspiracy.

Grow up...

Occam's razor is bullshit,pure and simple. With simple semantics,and can be made to prove anything right.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2009, 10:10:34 PM »
One more for RE. Huzza! ;D

Hardly.

Hay, I'm not the one that actually belives in stupid shit.

Have you ever heard of Occam's razor?....Oh but you'll tell me he must have made it up so he could be in on the conspiracy.

Grow up...


So, to debate a difficult position (and do a good job) is immature, but to register on a debate forum and not state arguments, but only insult the opposition is mature?  Without questioning our competency, why don't you try to prove that the Earth is round reasonably and politely?

And stop typing in green font.    It doesn't make you look cool or unique.

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munkirench

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2009, 03:14:01 PM »
No response to my argument?
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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Force10

Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2009, 07:15:11 PM »
No response to my argument?

I think you went over their heads.

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hi

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2009, 08:05:12 PM »
No response to my argument?

You argument is tl;dr.  No one's going to respond because no one's going to read.
I read it.

Forum posters need to learn to read long post, especially in a debate forum. It could have vital information that can be used for/ against the poster.

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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2009, 08:16:26 PM »
I read it and it was a ball of contradiction and flat out falsehoods. He is a classic case of someone that needs to open his mind and shut his mouth.

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munkirench

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2009, 08:57:43 PM »
care to point out alleged "falsehoods" and contradictions?
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2009, 04:42:11 PM »

In case you aren't aware of the scientific process, it does account for exception.  This is one of the main differences I see between science in general and the Flat Earth Society...
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Are you saying that the FES does not account for exception?

The FET was literally invented.  The ideas in the FET were designed, bit by bit, to match with simple visual observation, along with simple things like the changing seasons.

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The RET was literally invented.  The ideas in the RET were designed, bit by bit, to match with simple visual observation, along with simple things like the changing seasons.
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RET is no different. Assuming no outside influence, people would assume the world is flat.

Science also starts at square 1 with theories invented to match with simple observation, but as exceptions to the invented rules are discovered, the theory is revised to account for the inconsistencies.  In this way, Science starts with a mish-mash of inaccuracy, and converges towards a simpler and more complete theory. 

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Thank you for describing FET.
FET, by contrast, is ad hoc... every exception must be accounted for by adding on to the theory... a divergence, instead of convergence.

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Yes,generally you want to fix the holes that are in your theory. RET is no other way.

Perhaps FEers aren't aware, but one of the main reason that scientists accept the Round Earth theory, and all of the classical and modern physics that go along with it, is because these theories make predictions which can be verified.  There is NO other reason.  These theories are accepted because they work, and they work over both common and uncommon situations.  By contrast, FE only accounts for common situations, and doesn't make any predictions.  Active vs. Reactive.

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FE accounts for all observations as well. What about the fact that the daytime lunar eclipse is physically impossible in the Round Earth model?

But back to the original purpose... Why did the Round Earth theory prevail over the Flat Earth Theory way back when Flat Earth was universally accepted?  I realize and accept the modern bias which might prevent "progressive" thought towards FET, but way back when, why would FET have failed and been rejected?  My opinion is that FET failed simply because it is false.  When two theories face off, the one which produces predictions which match observation the most accurately wins.  And that is exactly what happened... Round Earth theory was able to account for all of the things which the Flat Earth theory could not have.  Even such an unpopular idea as a heliocentric universe prevailed over the geocentric universe, simply because it matches with observations.

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Look out your window. I don't see RE accounting for that observation.

I posit that the only way for FET to be true in the face of modern physics is magic.  There is simply no way for modern physics to have failed to realize that the Earth is in fact flat, and the only way for such a discrepancy to actually exist is magic, not a Conspiracy.  A Conspiracy could never explain away all of the discrepancies without something like a Time Machine... in which case, they would have no need to propagate the Conspiracy.

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Could you please cite an example of such a discrepancy?

Occam's razor is bullshit,pure and simple.

Epic. This really is a top notch debating forum huh?
I stand by the fact that Occams razor is bullshit.

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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2009, 04:55:11 PM »
I stand by the fact that Occams razor is bullshit.

Maybe if you were able to express in what way "Occams razor is bullshit" exactly...
I will apply Occams razor to weather or not God exists.
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What's more likely, that some weird ghost sent his zombie son down to earth to somehow "save us", or that the Big Bang happened.
Looks like god doesn't exist.

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What's more likely,that there was nothing never and then somehow there was a big-ass explosion and then somehow life appeared and here we are,or that god did it?
Oh shit,now there is a god.
Also, does anyone have the motivators that describe atheism v theism?

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2009, 05:19:28 PM »
I will apply Occams razor to weather or not God exists.

That's a good one. One one side, we have the evidence of god being the bounty of life, and the position of man as ruler of the beasts etc etc.

On the other hand we have the scientific explanation (with evidence) of how life evolved and the development of the human brain leading to a highly intelligent, adaptable and social primate.

Which one makes the least number of assumptions? The religious one. So which one does Occams razor cut away? The religious one.


What's more likely, that this beautiful, intricate, complex, mathematically-guided universe we live in came about purely by chance, or that this beautiful, intricate, complex, mathematically-guided universe we live in had an intelligent designer?

Occam's Razor contradicts the basic logical principle that correlation does not imply causation.  Therefore it has no place in a logical debate.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 05:21:31 PM by Roundy the Truthinessist »
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2009, 05:58:47 PM »
What's more likely, that this beautiful, intricate, complex, mathematically-guided universe we live in came about purely by chance, or that this beautiful, intricate, complex, mathematically-guided universe we live in had an intelligent designer?

Occam's Razor contradicts the basic logical principle that correlation does not imply causation.  Therefore it has no place in a logical debate.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Occams razor does not ask "What's more likely?" It asks "What makes the least number of assumptions?"

So what makes the least number of assumptions?

An assumed intelligent designer, or a proven process of evolution?

No, my scenario assumes that the intelligent designer drove (or at least initiated) the process of evolution.  It seems that the "no God" side makes more assumptions, because on the one hand we have an intelligent designer who put the laws of physics into motion to create our orderly universe, and on the other it has to be assumed that all those laws of physics and our structured universe are simply random.  Right now the only scientific way around this is to assume an infinity of unobservable parallel universes, in which ours is that one in 10some incredibly gigantic number universe where things came out "just right" for the universe to be as beautiful and structured as it is, and also have beings that are capable of intelligently observing it.  Approaching it from the point of view that there's no God causes us to need to make all these assumptions.  Clearly Occam's Razor favors God's existence.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2009, 06:53:54 PM »
Roundy,thank you for saying it much better than I could.

No, my scenario assumes that the intelligent designer drove (or at least initiated) the process of evolution.

And there's your mistake. You make one huge assumption (that God exists).

Science, while there maybe some assumptions made, is able to rationally explain a large majority of the observed world.

Again, science makes the least assumptions, science wins over religion.



However, the original debate was "Occams Razor is bullshit". Since you're trying to use the razor to prove your argument, you're in fact countering that it's bullshit.

Please continue posting.
No, he is demonstrating how Occam's razor is flawed,

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2009, 07:40:56 PM »
No, my scenario assumes that the intelligent designer drove (or at least initiated) the process of evolution.

And there's your mistake. You make one huge assumption (that God exists).


I make no such assumption.  If I assume God exists, what sense is there applying Occam's Razor to determine if God exists?  Please pay attention.

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Science, while there maybe some assumptions made, is able to rationally explain a large majority of the observed world.

Indeed it does, and using Occam's Razor it can be used to "prove" that an intelligent designer exists, as I've demonstrated.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2009, 10:58:22 AM »
Using Occam's Razor it can be used to "prove" that an intelligent designer exists, as I've demonstrated.

So Occams razor is a good thing?

No, I never said that.  As WoM pointed out, I was merely elucidating Occam's Razor's flaws.  I don't believe in God and there's no scientific reason to think that God exists.  Yet I just used Occam's Razor to demonstrate that an intelligent designer is more likely than pure randomness.  Using the logic that Occam's Razor on its own is able to prove something, I've proven God's existence.  Do you see yet why it has no place in logical debate?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2009, 11:15:48 AM »
Do you see yet why it has no place in logical debate?

No. I can see how you have no idea how to apply Occams razor. The rest writes itself.

Wow.  Just a couple posts ago you were praising my argument as proof of Occam's Razor's utility.  Make up your mind.  ::)
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2009, 12:13:25 PM »
When you saw that this meant two trolls were fighting over the same kill you switched back to playing the dumb fuck.

Since I can't fight two trolls at once I'll just have to kill one of you now.

*BLAM*

Yeah, that's the usual last gasp of the poor REer who can't back up his arguments - accuse the people he's debating with that they're trolls.  It's so sad that your skills at debating are so poor that you need to make up such a lame excuse for losing an argument.  :(
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2009, 12:26:45 PM »
Yeah, that's the usual last gasp of the poor REer who can't back up his arguments - accuse the people he's debating with that they're trolls.

Well you've already shown you have no idea what you're talking about. I tried to explain to you why you were wrong but you just kept on saying the same thing. Ergo you are a thick as fuck troll. Go away.

You have yet to point out a flaw in my argument.  Go ahead, I'll wait.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2009, 03:39:14 PM »
As I look at this I see that the problem with your argument is that it has diverged from the topic of conspiracy origins and is you are now debating the validity of Occams Razor. Why not answer the more challenging aspects of the question such as why did RET prevail over FET even though the notion of FE was widely accepted.

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munkirench

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2009, 08:05:17 AM »
Seriously... why are we debating Occam's Razor?  Occam's Razor is fucking stupid.  It's a useless piece of philosophical drivel.

The original point that I was making in my "tl;dr" post is that science attempts to make predictions about the world.  Occam's Razor aside, the best theory is the one which can make the most accurate predictions.  And the fact remains that FET is NOT explained by any predictive theory.  Every piece of FET had to be invented... Dark Energy?  Shadow Object?  Ice Wall?  Conspiracy?  All of these things are totally unrelated, except that they are required to describe normal observations while rejecting the hypothesis that the Earth is round.  On the other hand, round-earth science can explain ALL observations with just two theories - Quantum Field Theory, General Theory of Relativity.  And no, the theories are NOT inconsistent... they do NOT contradict each other.  They simply do not predict each other.  But I digress...

FET is useless because it does NOT make predictions.  The only predictions it can successfully make are based on things that have already been observed.  On the other hand, using science, I can successfully predict the outcome of a scenario without ever having seen a similar scenario before.  Prediction is what makes a good, useful theory, and nothing else is relevant.  And the fact is that science predicts a round earth, and subsequent predictions based on the acceptance of a round earth are accurate.

In response to Waste of Mind:

The exception I have in mind when describing the obvious necessity of FET to "invent" explanations is the Shadow Object.  Round earth theory very easily and simply predicts the occurrence of lunar eclipses, but in order to account for them in FET, the Shadow Object was invented.  Aside from the lunar eclipse, there is NO reason to believe that such an object exists.  It was invented in order to match with an exception in observation.  And as for your claim that lunar eclipses can only be viewed on the night side of round earth... Are you fucking stupid?  Have you ever heard someone claim that you can observe a lunar eclipse during the daytime?  Every competent child knows that if the earth is casting a shadow on the moon, it must be nighttime in order to observe it.  I challenge you to back up your claim, and show me a single record of observation of a lunar eclipse during the daytime.

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Assuming no outside influence, people would assume the world is flat.
You mean, assuming that all people are incapable of performing basic mathematics and making observations of the world?  And assuming that people are stupid enough to assume that something on the observable scale is exactly what it appears to be on a scale of different magnitudes?  Do you believe in atoms?  Why should you?  You have never seen one.  Every direct observation of an atom requires incredibly expensive equipment... look out, everyone, IBM is a part of the conspiracy!  They are refuting common observation!!  They claim that all matter is NOT infinitely divisible!  But obviously, if I take a knife, I can infinitely split a piece of bread, until I no longer have the dexterity to control the knife precisely enough.  Atoms must be a hoax.
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Look out your window. I don't see RE accounting for that observation
Looking out of my window doesn't account for Special Relativity, basic Chemistry, molecular Biology, or any other extremely micro or macro science.  Congratulations, you're just incapable of accepting anything that requires in depth analysis.

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and converges towards a simpler and more complete theory
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Thank you for describing FET
How does FET converge?  It starts with "the earth is flat" and from there, you add in Dark Energy (which was obviously stolen from cosmic observations of "normal" scientists), you invent the shadow object, you invent the Ice Wall, you invent the Conspiracy, you invent the idea of non-conservative "orbits" of celestial objects, you refute all evidence as being fake.  I fail to see how this theory converges towards completion.

Quote from: Dictionary.com
ad hoc - for or concerned with one specific purpose
The Shadow Object fits this description exactly.

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Could you please cite an example of such a discrepancy?
You misunderstood what I was saying.  The discrepancy I was pointing out was the obvious fact that the greatest minds on earth have been studying and explaining the world's extreme phenomena, and none of them have come to the conclusion that the Earth is flat.
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2009, 02:46:34 PM »
Seriously... why are we debating Occam's Razor?  Occam's Razor is fucking stupid.  It's a useless piece of philosophical drivel.

Thank you.

To the rest of your points, I don't disagree with you.  Science's utility comes not from its ability to accurately describe the world around us but from its ability to make predictions.  That's probably why it's so often throughout history been shown to be incorrect in describing the world around us despite its ability to make predictions.

That's why I prefer to approach FE from a different angle.  The Earth looks flat to me.  Every sense I have tells me it's flat.  Therefore I'm going to need extraordinary evidence to be convinced otherwise.

For me, this is a thought experiment.  It becomes, "Okay, so let's take it for granted that the Earth is flat.  I'm being presented with all this evidence that supposedly proves it otherwise.  How are these things possible if the Earth is flat?"

Working out exactly how a FE is possible is what this website is all about.  I don't concern myself with which model is "better"; I don't think the ability to make predictions is really any measurement of a theory's relation to reality; after all, Newton's theory of gravity made accurate predictions for years and still does.  Then Einstein went and proved it wrong.  So much for a theory's utility for making predictions demonstrating the theory's correctness.

Science only gives us an abstraction of reality, and humanity's tendency to interpret experiments with a bias only distorts things further.  To go back to Newton as an example of this, his biased interpretation of his observations indicated that masses of matter pull on each other depending on the quantity of mass.  He saw a pulling force and he assumed that's what it was.  It wasn't until Einstein formulated his conception of four-dimensional space that we knew better.

A round Earth has been assumed since long before we had the means to actually prove it.  After two millenia plus of such a bias, it's no wonder that things have been worked out so that certain things appear to prove that the Earth is round.

Such phenomena can only prove the Earth is round if there's no other explanation for the phenomena.  So in the name of advancing our understanding of the world, we attempt to remove the bias when considering these questions... questions fundamental to our theory like "Why is there a horizon?" and "Why do things fall?"

Unfortunately we don't have the time, resources, or sheer amounts of people working on such questions as RE has had through the millenia, thanks to that bias.  So there are gaps that on the surface appear to counter FE.  I feel that given some time less than two thousand years of work those gaps can be filled in, and that's how I approach my involvement in this website.

On the other hand, some apparent gaps have already been filled in quite snugly, suggesting that our endeavor is a worthy one.

I never try to prove FE, and I've backed off my previous assertions that FE has been proven, or even can be proven.  As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't need to be proven.  RE is the theory that asks us to look at the world in a different way, therefore that's the theory that needs to be proven, if it's correct.  I'm content to just assume the Earth is the shape it appears to be, and move in my inquiries from there.

At least until it's proven otherwise.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 02:50:34 PM by Roundy the Truthinessist »
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2009, 02:48:38 PM »
Seriously... why are we debating Occam's Razor?  Occam's Razor is fucking stupid.  It's a useless piece of philosophical drivel.

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Agreed.
The exception I have in mind when describing the obvious necessity of FET to "invent" explanations is the Shadow Object.  Round earth theory very easily and simply predicts the occurrence of lunar eclipses, but in order to account for them in FET, the Shadow Object was invented.  Aside from the lunar eclipse, there is NO reason to believe that such an object exists.  It was invented in order to match with an exception in observation.  And as for your claim that lunar eclipses can only be viewed on the night side of round earth... Are you fucking stupid?  Have you ever heard someone claim that you can observe a lunar eclipse during the daytime?  Every competent child knows that if the earth is casting a shadow on the moon, it must be nighttime in order to observe it.  I challenge you to back up your claim, and show me a single record of observation of a lunar eclipse during the daytime.
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Stolen from another thread.

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Assuming no outside influence, people would assume the world is flat.
You mean, assuming that all people are incapable of performing basic mathematics and making observations of the world?  And assuming that people are stupid enough to assume that something on the observable scale is exactly what it appears to be on a scale of different magnitudes?  Do you believe in atoms?  Why should you?  You have never seen one.  Every direct observation of an atom requires incredibly expensive equipment... look out, everyone, IBM is a part of the conspiracy!  They are refuting common observation!!  They claim that all matter is NOT infinitely divisible!  But obviously, if I take a knife, I can infinitely split a piece of bread, until I no longer have the dexterity to control the knife precisely enough.  Atoms must be a hoax.
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You show me the basic mathematics that prove the earth it round. The rest of your post is just gibberish.
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Look out your window. I don't see RE accounting for that observation
Looking out of my window doesn't account for Special Relativity, basic Chemistry, molecular Biology, or any other extremely micro or macro science.  Congratulations, you're just incapable of accepting anything that requires in depth analysis.
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You're right, looking our your window does not require knowledge of those things. Thank you for the update captain Obvious.

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and converges towards a simpler and more complete theory
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Thank you for describing FET
How does FET converge?  It starts with "the earth is flat" and from there, you add in Dark Energy (which was obviously stolen from cosmic observations of "normal" scientists), you invent the shadow object, you invent the Ice Wall, you invent the Conspiracy, you invent the idea of non-conservative "orbits" of celestial objects, you refute all evidence as being fake.  I fail to see how this theory converges towards completion.
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These things weren't "invented", they were theorized after observation and experimentation.

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ad hoc - for or concerned with one specific purpose
The Shadow Object fits this description exactly.
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And this disproves it how?
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Could you please cite an example of such a discrepancy?
You misunderstood what I was saying.  The discrepancy I was pointing out was the obvious fact that the greatest minds on earth have been studying and explaining the world's extreme phenomena, and none of them have come to the conclusion that the Earth is flat.
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Samuel Birley Rowbotham, PhD. is one of those "great minds" that tends to disagree with RET.

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munkirench

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2009, 08:44:00 AM »
Waste of Mind... i'm not going to respond to any of your post, because it adds nothing, and doesn't respond to a thing i've said.  It's just semantic masturbation.  And that picture of the moon is totally irrelevant.  It is consistent with my claim.  I won't bother to say why, because if you can't figure it out yourself, you deserve all of the self-delusion that you apparently heap upon yourself.

To the REAL response that actually adds to the discussion:
i wrote out a nice long response, but my laptop ran out of battery, and for some reason shut down instead of hibernating, so it's gone.  The gist was:  I understand the point of view of wanting to question the world, but you take it too far once you introduce the idea of a conspiracy, because a conspiracy can be used to explain away anything.  thought experiments lose their value, just become mental masturbation once you invent a reason to reject all evidence to the contrary of your hypothesis.  In this way, you are just as guilty of bias as the REers, because you go out of your way to discount a solution to the problem that obviously works.

Do you reject and question ALL non-observable sciences, such as relativity, chemistry, molecular biology, cosmology?  They all have the same amount of evidence, and are all just as valid, as the theory of a round-earth.  None of them can be verified through everyday observation, but they are nonetheless supported by mountains of evidence, just like the idea of a round earth.  The only difference is that you haven't gone out of your way to explain it away through a deus-ex-machina conspiracy.
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2009, 10:14:31 AM »
Well, I try to work around the Conspiracy when it's possible.  I really only reject pictures from space agencies and accounts of having been to space on those grounds.  Who knows?

I honestly don't see what's wrong with mental masturbation... it looks like two positive things latched together to me.  :-\

To run down the list:

I don't reject relativity per se, but I see no logical reason to assume it's correct, and I have no doubt that it's the end of the story; it doesn't account for everything we observe in the universe and as exists so far is not compatible with the other great physical theory Quantum Mechanics.

I was never very good at chemistry so I'm really not concerned with it.  Likewise I never took an interest in molecular biology; however I do feel that evolution has been confirmed.

Cosmology as it stands today is riddled with philosophical mumbo-jumbo and assumptions.  :)
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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munkirench

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2009, 11:01:42 AM »
I see.  I think that the main difference between us is our intentions.  I believe that there is indeed one single objective universe, and that it is not open to interpretation.  It works in the ways that it works, and we don't have anything to say about it, except to try and find out exactly how it does work.  It appears to me that you are more interested in simply discussing the possible solutions, rather than trying to find the solution.  I admit that if the Conspiracy is indeed real, than your claims regarding a flat earth are possible.  the reason that I reject the flat earth solution anyway is that I find the existence of a conspiracy to be incredibly unlikely, in the face of both idealistic and realistic analysis.  Of course, I concede that anything that has a finite probability is by definition possible, but I think that the probability of all of the claims of FET being true is so slim that in everyday occurrence, it would be approximated as impossible.

Regarding the specific sciences I mentioned, maybe I didn't make my purpose clear.  I brought up those sciences just to show that there are incredibly detailed sciences that are supported by nearly irrefutable quantities and qualities of evidence that are most definitely not a part of everyday observation.  For instance, the fundamentals of molecular biology are nearly 100% understood, but are impossible to observe with naked senses.  To me, there is no possibility of refuting those sciences, at least not without developing a new theory which encompasses the old ones as well, in the same manner that general relativity encompassed newtonian gravitation.  Therefore, to me, it is a futile mental exercise to simply think about ways in which they could be false.  Not to say that speculation can't be interesting, but that putting any real weight behind those speculations is foolish and self-delusory.

If this forum was a satire, or a parody, I would find it both entertaining and interesting.  Unfortunately, it seems that most members have taken the "question everything" ideal and transformed it into "reject everything".  The ideologies are very different.  One is useful, the other futile.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 11:05:14 AM by munkirench »
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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W

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Re: Origin of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2009, 11:18:15 AM »
Flat Earth dogma states that there is a massive (or at least universally pervasive) conspiracy which spreads ideas concerning all of modern physics and cosmology.  Where did this conspiracy originate?  The idea of a round earth was conceived by ancient Greek philosophers, and was accepted as "truth" during the 1500s.  Surely the ancient Greeks were not in on the Conspiracy?  Especially since the Conspiracy revolves around getting funding for space-travel and research?  Same goes for the Renaissance... surely Galileo and Copernicus wouldn't have risked their lives taking on the Catholic Church just to start a Conspiracy?

No, they were just wrong. People have long thought that the Earth was a sphere.

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Stipulating that there is indeed an active Conspiracy, how could it have started and been maintained in the face of the massive research into cosmology during the past 400 years?  Where would the "funds" that are the impetus for the Conspiracy have come from 400 years ago?  All of that research was done by people with telescopes in their back yards, not by orbiters.  They needed no funding, and they got no funding, yet they supposedly propagated a massive Conspiracy unsupported by scientific evidence (assuming that the technology for the "projectors" was developed during WWII, as FEers claim).

Again, they were just wrong. The only conspiracy is NASA executives faking a space program in order to keep the funds for themselves. Since everyone assumed the Earth was round, it made sense to fake it as such.

The NASA executives aren't trying to cover up the fact that the Earth is flat; they themselves think it is round. But the space program is entirely fake.
If you say that the earth is flat, you are destroying centuries of evolution.