Oceans in RET

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Infinity

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #150 on: May 08, 2009, 05:11:36 PM »
lol, woops my bad. Sorry guys, really early in the morning here :)

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iznih

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #151 on: May 08, 2009, 05:56:11 PM »
no problem at all  :)

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Parsifal

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #152 on: May 10, 2009, 02:34:41 AM »
Sorry, haven't been posting much in the debate forums lately. I'll try to respond to as many relevant posts as possible now.

I would say that for the oceans to behave the way they do, the centrifugal 'force' would have to have a magnitude appropriate to create the observed effect.  If it were any greater, or less, a different effect would be observed.
I realise this is incredibly circular reasoning, but I don't know how else to word it.

It is circular reasoning, and for that reason you are actually saying nothing about the shape of the Earth. You're assuming RET, then claiming that because we observe things working a certain way, RET is true.

Well, if one weighed more overall, the weight of water in that part would push water into where it weighed less overall.

Think of a upright U-tube. If you pour a lot of water into one side, the weight of all the water on that side is going to push down until both sides are level.

Think of a mass balance. If you put a kilogram of mass on one side, and ten kilograms on the other, is the lighter side going to go down to try to push the heavy stuff up to where it weighs less, or is the heavy side going to go down?

And? Most of that rock is a fluid, and that's how you would expect a fluid to behave.

But if things were happening as you are suggesting, g would be equal everywhere at sea level. Otherwise the gravitational field vectors at the surface would be angled towards the poles, from low g to high g, which should cause the water to flow towards the poles.

Sorry to intervene, but I find this to be a very interesting topic, and I think I can add something to it. I must say I never asked myself your question, Robosteve, so I had to wrap my head around this in order to be able to explain what's going on.

You say that the RET is faulty, because it says that gravity varies from place to place, which would lead to the ocean water flooding certain places and leave others dry. Well, in fact, the mean sea levels have quite a respectable difference in different places on the earth because of local differences in gravity. Thus, the sea level at places with higher gravity due to more mass within the earth, such as the indian ocean, actually is 85 meters higher than the worldwide average. In places with a less dense core, such as northeast of Australia (thinner magma => less mass => less gravity), the sea level is 100 meters lower than the worldwide average sea level.

Now, why doesn't the water flow from the indian ocean to above Australia then? Well, why does water level out anyway? It does because of gravity. Gravity states that a water plane has to be level, because it pulls the water towards the earth's surface equally. But if you have local differences in gravity, you will have local differences in the water plane as well. Therefore, the mean sea level is not entirely constant over the earth.

So why doesn't the large-scale variation in g (that is, higher g nearer the poles) have the same effect? The sea level should change until g is equal everywhere at the surface.

Let's come back to Robosteve's actual argument then. He says that the oceans can not be following gravity, since that would lead to the water flowing away from certain places and flood others. The thing he ignores is that the oceans have always been following gravity and have adapted to it as soon as they evolved. Cities like Helsinki and Singapore don't drown, because they were founded on landmasses that had already been defined by the water level of the surrounding ocean, which in itself had been defined by local gravity.

Robosteve's argument is that water once was perfectly level, then such cities were built, then gravity was introduced, and now those cities should drown or dry out. Actually, gravity has always been there and has been affecting sea levels from the beginning, so the cities close to the seas were founded on solid conditions of a stable local mean sea level.

Nope, I'm saying that the land on which cities like Helsinki were built should have been flooded to begin with. Helsinki shouldn't exist at all, at least not in its present location.

But the water level is higher at places with higher attraction (= gravity), and lower where there's lower attraction. The mean sea level actually isn't level all over the world due to differences in local gravity. Where does RET state the opposite?

As I said in response to your other post, the large-scale variance in g doesn't exhibit this behaviour.

if you find an error let me know, a change in the FOR should cause no problems here cause it's only classical mechanics. a change in g with growing height has been neglected. look up the shape of earth. water distributes the same way like the earth is bulged at the equator.

Your error is that ΔU = mgh only works over small distances, and in a local frame of reference. You can't use it to describe the potential field around the entire Earth; for that, you need to use the general equation for gravitational potential energy.

You don't explain anything, you only state that it isn't proven and ignore totally the current technological state.

In the same sense that Einstein ignored the evolution of giant tortoises when developing the theory of Special Relativity, yes.

Because your g factors doesn't include anything about distance from earth center. They include acceleration and pull from stars.

Wait, are we talking about FET or RET here?

You used phrase "celestial plane". I don't see much difference between gear or plane in FE context, so, you just play with words again to dodge actual explaining.

Please buy a new thesaurus. Whichever one you're using seems to have been written by somebody with little to no grasp of the English language.

Sorry, I suggested how you can make it better or improve it - Go to the physic professors(or whoever you have there) who you have by your side at school every day and ask from them.  But you refuse to accept the advise and bother me instead. I wonder why.

Because you're the one claiming it is incorrect, not my professors. I'd like to know what exactly you think is wrong with it.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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iznih

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #153 on: May 10, 2009, 03:13:14 AM »


if you find an error let me know, a change in the FOR should cause no problems here cause it's only classical mechanics. a change in g with growing height has been neglected. look up the shape of earth. water distributes the same way like the earth is bulged at the equator.

Your error is that ΔU = mgh only works over small distances, and in a local frame of reference. You can't use it to describe the potential field around the entire Earth; for that, you need to use the general equation for gravitational potential energy.


te equation you provide describes the gravitational potential of a point mass with a homogeneus potential. the earth is neither a point nor has it a homogeneus field (that's where we started). the only thing my equation is missing, is the variation of g with height.

 

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Parsifal

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #154 on: May 10, 2009, 03:17:08 AM »
te equation you provide describes the gravitational potential of a point mass with a homogeneus potential. the earth is neither a point nor has it a homogeneus field (that's where we started). the only thing my equation is missing, is the variation of g with height.

For a roughly spherical object, modeling it as a point mass is a reasonable approximation when we are only concerned with the potential outside the surface of the sphere.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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NTheGreat

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #155 on: May 10, 2009, 05:55:46 AM »
Quote
Think of a mass balance. If you put a kilogram of mass on one side, and ten kilograms on the other, is the lighter side going to go down to try to push the heavy stuff up to where it weighs less, or is the heavy side going to go down?

Think of a mass balance where the weight can flow between sides. If you put one newton of weight on one side, and 10 newtons on the other, 4 and a half newtons of the weight is going to flow across to the lighter side, but no more.


Quote
But if things were happening as you are suggesting, g would be equal everywhere at sea level. Otherwise the gravitational field vectors at the surface would be angled towards the poles, from low g to high g, which should cause the water to flow towards the poles.

I see no reason why the apparent downwards force at the surface of a spinning fluid should be equal all over the surface, and I see no reason why a weaker apparent downward force at the equator should imply the vectors should be angled towards the poles.

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iznih

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #156 on: May 10, 2009, 08:49:18 AM »
te equation you provide describes the gravitational potential of a point mass with a homogeneus potential. the earth is neither a point nor has it a homogeneus field (that's where we started). the only thing my equation is missing, is the variation of g with height.

For a roughly spherical object, modeling it as a point mass is a reasonable approximation when we are only concerned with the potential outside the surface of the sphere.

and what about the inhomogeneus field?

Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #157 on: May 10, 2009, 08:56:39 AM »
One piece of evidence that you Round Earthers often like to flaunt as supporting your theory is the way that the measured value of g varies from place to place around the surface of the Earth. I will now show how this is, in fact, in direct opposition to the ridiculous hypothesis that the Earth is round, and can only be properly explained by Flat Earth Theory.

It is a natural state of affairs that the Universe will always tend towards its lowest energy state. In order for the world's oceans to achieve their lowest possible energy state, the measured value of g should be the same at every point corresponding to the surface of the ocean, if indeed they are being held in place by gravitation and not acceleration. If it is higher in some places than in others, the water should flow from the places with low values of g to those with higher values until g is equal everywhere at the surface. This is basic physics; the water is more weakly attracted where g is lower and will move to where gravitation is stronger.

Now, this table indicates that the measured value of g in Singapore is just 9.781 m s-2, while in Helsinki it is measured to be 9.819 m s-2. This is a difference of nearly 0.4%. Were the oceans truly bound to the surface of the Earth gravitationally, those nearer the Equator should be seeking out the lower energy states that exist in the polar regions and accumulating there. Coastal cities such as Helsinki and Copenhagen would be completely flooded, while there would be much more dry land in Oceania and Central America.

Why is this not the case? The answer, of course, is simple. The Earth is flat, and these oceans are not impressed to move because the acceleration keeping them in place is the same everywhere. The simple fact that the oceans are positioned where they are, ladies and gentlemen, is thus damning evidence that there exists a Conspiracy, and that the Conspiracy has succeeded in keeping the layman so ignorant to the true shape of the Earth that he believes the variance in g across the Earth's surface to be supportive of his beliefs, rather than in total contradiction to them.
You're much too intelligent to offer such a claim seriously. I'm sure you already understand your grevious error, but to help those reading your inane post with perhaps less insight, ;lease allow me to explain the obvious.

You incorrectly state that the Oceans have not already moved in such a way to compensate for the variance, and do so without proof. Proof to the contrary is readily available. For example, the height of the Atlantic Ocean vice the Pacific Ocean at the Panama Canal varies and the link: http://books.google.com/books?id=oohairZYezMC&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=panama+canal+height+of+ocean&source=bl&ots=h7QG4DO9sL&sig=XFYg4IhVPgN9SFYWZhY2-hNYG78&hl=en&ei=v_cGSt6fOuDHtgfZ3oCbBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 documents that fact.

Do stop wasting our time.

Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #158 on: May 10, 2009, 09:02:17 AM »
Sorry, haven't been posting much in the debate forums lately. I'll try to respond to as many relevant posts as possible now.
...
How about that promise by mid-April to post your mathematical underpinnings to "bendy light"? Did I miss your answer?

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polictomaz

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #159 on: May 14, 2009, 01:08:53 PM »
Excuse me for my high school physics... but i think theres a simple explenation for the problem of oceans not flooding the northers and southers coasts. i think all of you guys forgot the centrifugal force (hope i wrote that right). As the earth spins, the water is forced back to the equator, becouse equator is further away from center of the earth than any other place (earth is not a perfect sphere). And together with the .4% differance in g, lets say thats why Helsinki is flooded. BUT thats only my theory.

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rounder69

Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #160 on: May 17, 2009, 07:12:34 AM »
Excuse me for my high school physics... but i think theres a simple explenation for the problem of oceans not flooding the northers and southers coasts. i think all of you guys forgot the centrifugal force (hope i wrote that right). As the earth spins, the water is forced back to the equator, becouse equator is further away from center of the earth than any other place (earth is not a perfect sphere). And together with the .4% differance in g, lets say thats why Helsinki is flooded. BUT thats only my theory.
1. It's centripetal force, not centrifugal.
2. The equator is not the furthest distance away from the center of the earth, Chimborazo in the Andes triumphs is in fact the furthest point from the Earth's centre, being 20,561 feet (6,267 meters) above sea level.
3. Helsinki is not flooded.

Seriously, If you're going to argue for RE, get your facts right before you do.

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Redingold

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #161 on: May 17, 2009, 07:18:13 AM »
Yes, RET is very silly, what with it's nuclear fusion in stars.

And what is wrong with nuclear fusion?

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polictomaz

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #162 on: May 18, 2009, 08:53:43 AM »
Excuse me for my high school physics... but i think theres a simple explenation for the problem of oceans not flooding the northers and southers coasts. i think all of you guys forgot the centrifugal force (hope i wrote that right). As the earth spins, the water is forced back to the equator, becouse equator is further away from center of the earth than any other place (earth is not a perfect sphere). And together with the .4% differance in g, lets say thats why Helsinki is flooded. BUT thats only my theory.
1. It's centripetal force, not centrifugal.
2. The equator is not the furthest distance away from the center of the earth, Chimborazo in the Andes triumphs is in fact the furthest point from the Earth's centre, being 20,561 feet (6,267 meters) above sea level.
3. Helsinki is not flooded.

Seriously, If you're going to argue for RE, get your facts right before you do.

If im not mistaken, there are 2 different forces: centripetal AND centrifugal
I was talking about the distance where see level is the furthest from the center (and i dont think theres any see in the Andes)
Adn the thing about Helsinki... my bad :P

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iznih

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #163 on: May 18, 2009, 03:02:08 PM »
if i got your point correctly centrifugal force would indeed be correct. your post was a bit mixed up but i think you got the general idea  :)

Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #164 on: May 18, 2009, 10:15:21 PM »
centrifugal is an imaginary force. Look it up.
But a sure-fire method would be to land on the top side of the sun.

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Rastafarth

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #165 on: May 19, 2009, 12:55:26 AM »
This is very interesting question and it took me quite some time to figure it out. The answer is however relatively simple. The values of g you posted are not actual values of g measured in Helsinky and Singapur, rather they are values calculated with some simple model. Wikipedia is not always exact source of information.

The earth's shape is aproximately elipsoid, if you calculate earth's gravitational field as a field of homogenous rotationg elipsoid, you'll get this equation:

This equation is not entirely exact, as earth is not an elipsoid and is not homogenous. This equation is used for reference purposes-you can use this equation to find out how much earth differ from an elipsoid.

More exact shape of earth is Geoid. Geoid is by definition:
Quote
a surface of constant potential energy that coincides with mean sea level over the oceans.
That means to find shape of geoid, you must measure earth's gravity potential, find its equipotential surfaces and then choose the surface that corresponds to mean sea level. This has been done and the shape of geoid is now known with good precision (+- 1m and propably better now)

Mean sea (averaged over the period of tides) level is almost exactly equal to the geoid. There are of course differences caused by currents, air pressure and propably lot of other aspects, but difference is nowhere bigger than 2 metres. On continents geoid can differ a lot from the factual shape of earth (up to 200 m). Here is a map of geoid relative to reference elipsoid:
http://principles.ou.edu/earth_figure_gravity/geoid/ww15mgh.jpg

The important thing is that geoid is by definition an equipotential surface and by measurement it was shown that it almost exactly corresponds to sea level. Your idea was however good, here you can find image showing how would earth look if it was perfectly sferical with no gravitational anomalies (homogenous):
http://www.esri.com/news/arcuser/0703/graphics/geoid6_lg.jpg
The difference between this simple model and real earth seems to be cause mainly by two reasons-the earth is not spherical and it is not at all homogenous.

This all is not surprisive. If the value of g was really different on sea level, then then the sea would have to move to lowest energy state (as you correctly said) no matter the shape of the earth. Your argument with rotating stars is really stupid, if their rotation had no effect on g, then it could have no effect on the oceans too. Their rotation is irrelevant as long as it doesn't influence the value of g.

For more informations look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoid
http://www.lct.com/technical-pages/pdf/Li_G_Tut.pdf
http://principles.ou.edu/earth_figure_gravity/geoid/index.html
http://www.esri.com/news/arcuser/0703/geoid1of3.html

P.S. Nuclear fusion is in fact well proven. Not only it is theory that correctly explains and predicts things (which is a condition for good science theory), it aslso has been tested in laboratories. While we can't use it to make energy, we can make plasma and start fusion in facilities called tokamaks. The fact that we can't use it to make energy is no big surprise-plasma needs to have temperature of sveeral milion degrees, it take a lot of energy to keep it where you want. 

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dyno

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #166 on: May 19, 2009, 01:34:27 AM »
Response to RS

The water in the oceans is not static and hence cannot move to one point. The effects of the Moon's tidal forces, centripetal acceleration, water viscosity, winds, waves, seismic activity seem to have been ignored in your consideration. Atmospheric pressure would also affect the water level to some extent.

Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #167 on: May 19, 2009, 03:28:45 AM »
i think you got ur answer robo.... steeeve. and centrifugal still = imaginary (at whoever asked before).
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 04:17:16 AM by Colossal Death Robot »
But a sure-fire method would be to land on the top side of the sun.

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polictomaz

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #168 on: May 19, 2009, 05:59:51 AM »
Rastafarth PWNZ ya all!!! :D

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iznih

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #169 on: May 19, 2009, 10:29:40 AM »
centrifugal is an imaginary force. Look it up.

#1: it's called fictitius force, not imaginary
#2: if fictitius forces had no effects in noninertial frames of reference (rotating earth), would we have a name for them?
#2: grab a physics book and educate yourself

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Rastafarth

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #170 on: May 19, 2009, 10:55:18 AM »
I realized, that I've made some mistakes, so I'll try to repair it. The values of g is in fact different in Helsinky than in Singapure and I'll try to explain why it is possible. I've correctly written, that sea level should be equipotential surface. The reason for that is quite simple. It is obvious, that in equilibrum gravitational force should always be perpendicular to sea level. If you know the potential, than you can compute the force as F=-gradV, so that gradV should be always perpendicular to sea level. And this is exactly property of equipotential surfaces.

This means that quantity that has to be same everywhere on the sea level is potential. g is derivative of potential (more precisely it's size of the derivative *kg^-1) and therefore it doesn't have to be same everywhere. This is basic physics, but I didn't realise it at first. Rest of my previous post should be correct.

Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #171 on: May 19, 2009, 09:15:52 PM »
centrifugal is an imaginary force. Look it up.

#1: it's called fictitius force, not imaginary
#2: if fictitius forces had no effects in noninertial frames of reference (rotating earth), would we have a name for them?
#2: grab a physics book and educate yourself

1) do you mean fictitious?
2) Ficticous = of, pertaining to, or consisting of fiction; imaginatively produced or set forth; created by the imagination. Sounds like imaginary to me.
3) (or two again as you call it) yes i own and have read a physics text book.
4) When you spin a ball on a string around your head, the force inwards keeping the ball from flying away is centripetal, and real, the apparent force outwards is apparent, not real. e.g. we think we are feeling a centrifugal force when a car turns a corner, and it feels like we are pushing on the side door, but it is in fact pushing us. (as far as i understand)
But a sure-fire method would be to land on the top side of the sun.

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iznih

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #172 on: May 20, 2009, 09:04:30 AM »
centrifugal is an imaginary force. Look it up.

#1: it's called fictitius force, not imaginary
#2: if fictitius forces had no effects in noninertial frames of reference (rotating earth), would we have a name for them?
#2: grab a physics book and educate yourself

1) do you mean fictitious?

yes, typo  :)

3) (or two again as you call it) yes i own and have read a physics text book.

just wanted to test if you're paying attention, about the book: good to hear

4) When you spin a ball on a string around your head, the force inwards keeping the ball from flying away is centripetal, and real, the apparent force outwards is apparent, not real. e.g. we think we are feeling a centrifugal force when a car turns a corner, and it feels like we are pushing on the side door, but it is in fact pushing us. (as far as i understand)

we're also pushing the door but you got the idea. important point is, that the distance car-person will increase until something stops you. it's the same with water on a spinning earth. the water somply wants to go in a straight line. as the earth rotates this will increase the distance earth-water till gravitation stops it from flying away.



after rereading my post i think it was a bit harsh, so apologies for that but i often have the impression that the fictitious force story is put forward to discredit an argument without understanding that it adds nothing to the discussion. as you obviously got the point i wonder why you mentioned it?

Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #173 on: May 20, 2009, 05:33:29 PM »
i was just pointing out he used the wrong word. And kind of prodding him in the direction of figuring out why the "apparent" force outward occurs. As it can help with understanding.
But a sure-fire method would be to land on the top side of the sun.

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markjo

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Re: Oceans in RET
« Reply #174 on: May 22, 2009, 06:58:56 AM »
From the official Evil Overlord List:
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4.  Shooting is not too good for my enemies.
6.  I will not gloat over my enemies' predicament before killing them.
7.  When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No." and shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No."
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.