RE Picture Proof

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zork

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2009, 12:41:49 PM »
No, it is a different situation. You are still choosing a non-inertial frame of reference, whether or not the observer is aware of that fact.
No, they are not different. In both cases you can look it as - there is thing(earth or wall) which stays still and there is thing which rushes toward it. Only directions are different. Vertical or horizontal. But you conveniently choose to say that in one case the first thing accelerates and on second it does not. But what if wall has small wheels and motor?
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Parsifal

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2009, 12:44:48 PM »
No, they are not different. In both cases you can look it as - there is thing(earth or wall) which stays still and there is thing which rushes toward it. Only directions are different. Vertical or horizontal. But you conveniently choose to say that in one case the first thing accelerates and on second it does not.

Because that is true. If the two observers both carried accelerometers and we ignore the effect of air resistance, the one falling towards the ground will see that they are not accelerating while the one moving towards the wall will see that they are. There is a measureable difference between the two.

But what if wall has small wheels and motor?

What relevance does that have?
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zork

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2009, 01:06:35 PM »
Because that is true. If the two observers both carried accelerometers and we ignore the effect of air resistance, the one falling towards the ground will see that they are not accelerating while the one moving towards the wall will see that they are. There is a measureable difference between the two.
Again if. But what if they don't have accelerometers. I kind of can argue Tom's "look out the window" argument in same way. That if you go high enough then you can see round earth. But it's no use. So, why I must accept your "if they have accelerometers" here.

But what if wall has small wheels and motor?
What relevance does that have?
It is more interesting in that way.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Parsifal

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2009, 01:15:38 PM »
Again if. But what if they don't have accelerometers. I kind of can argue Tom's "look out the window" argument in same way. That if you go high enough then you can see round earth. But it's no use. So, why I must accept your "if they have accelerometers" here.

Because there is a measurable difference between the two situations. They are demonstrably different.
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zork

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2009, 01:28:22 PM »
Again if. But what if they don't have accelerometers. I kind of can argue Tom's "look out the window" argument in same way. That if you go high enough then you can see round earth. But it's no use. So, why I must accept your "if they have accelerometers" here.

Because there is a measurable difference between the two situations. They are demonstrably different.
So what. Sitting at the ground and looking out of window and going up there to great heights are also demonstrably different.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Parsifal

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2009, 01:31:52 PM »
So what. Sitting at the ground and looking out of window and going up there to great heights are also demonstrably different.

Irrelevant.
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zork

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2009, 01:33:20 PM »
So what. Sitting at the ground and looking out of window and going up there to great heights are also demonstrably different.
Irrelevant.
Not in my point of view.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Parsifal

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2009, 01:40:04 PM »
Not in my point of view.

Your point of view is pretty lousy. How is observing the shape of the Earth related to the selection of an inertial frame of reference?
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zork

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2009, 01:46:13 PM »
Not in my point of view.

Your point of view is pretty lousy. How is observing the shape of the Earth related to the selection of an inertial frame of reference?
Maybe it is but yours isn't better. And the other thing... how the hell I should know. I talked about earth accelerating upward not about it's shape.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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A Physicist

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2009, 08:39:37 AM »
Let's revisit the parachute paradox for a moment.

It was said that a man with a parachute dropping from the aeroplane will not fall to the Earth at the same rate as a man without a parachute - a slower rate, in fact. This is undeniably true because it is how we have parachutists. If this is denied then fundamental social reality is denied and advocates belong in a mental institute.

It was then postulated that this cannot be the work of Dark Energy because Dark Energy would accelerate the Earth towards the parachutist at the same rate, thereby killing the parachutist without regards for the parachute. This is false on its face.

The FET defense was that dark energy pushes the air up into the parachute, thereby creating the effect of air resistance even with Dark Energy at work. This, however, invites difficulties into Dark Energy theory as a whole.

Firstly, Dark Energy theory has on occasion said there are two components to Dark Energy: the one, which accelerates the Earth upward at 9.8 meters per second squared; and the other, which bends light. Now, the dark energy that bends light penetrates through the Earth and the other one exerts its force moving the Earth upwards. Here, we have something of a problem.

If Dark Energy is blocked by the Earth, how can it push the air up into the parachute? Furthermore, if it pushes air into the parachute at this instance, why then is it not always pushing up air? Why, then, do we not have a constant updraft of air which, if it is powerful enough to succeed the Earth's acceleration and stymy the parachute's path downwards, would eventually escape us, thus obliterating the atmosphere and leaving us all to asphyxiate and die?

If we assume that the air's progress is not greater than the Earth's acceleration, so that it stays in the atmosphere and yet still pushes the parachute, then it is being pushed up independent of the dark energy by the Earth simultaneously (it isn't fast enough, you see), thereby negating the effects of the air on the parachute causing the parachutists to plummet to his death.

Gravitational theory does a better job of explaining this mess than "Dark Energy" theory. I propose you Occam's razor, that the needlessly complex, spiderwebbed, and hob-nob theory of Flat Earth is wrong because it is riddled with inconsistency. Saying that all objects affect each other due to their mass (a stipulation proven by hundreds of years of scientific research) makes more sense than saying a force of unseen origin and cause is pushing the Earth up at an ever-increasing speed.

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Parsifal

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2009, 10:28:40 AM »
If Dark Energy is blocked by the Earth, how can it push the air up into the parachute? Furthermore, if it pushes air into the parachute at this instance, why then is it not always pushing up air? Why, then, do we not have a constant updraft of air which, if it is powerful enough to succeed the Earth's acceleration and stymy the parachute's path downwards, would eventually escape us, thus obliterating the atmosphere and leaving us all to asphyxiate and die?

First of all, your username is obviously a misnomer.

Secondly, Dark Energy pushes the Earth, which in turn pushes the air. Please learn some basic fluid mechanics.
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A Physicist

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2009, 10:43:37 AM »
If Dark Energy is blocked by the Earth, how can it push the air up into the parachute? Furthermore, if it pushes air into the parachute at this instance, why then is it not always pushing up air? Why, then, do we not have a constant updraft of air which, if it is powerful enough to succeed the Earth's acceleration and stymy the parachute's path downwards, would eventually escape us, thus obliterating the atmosphere and leaving us all to asphyxiate and die?

First of all, your username is obviously a misnomer.

Secondly, Dark Energy pushes the Earth, which in turn pushes the air. Please learn some basic fluid mechanics.

PRE-POST EDIT: After working it out with pencil and paper, I concede the point. However, I am still dubious about the origins of the Dark Energy.

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Robbyj

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2009, 10:46:47 AM »
However, I am still dubious about the origins of the Dark Energy.

I think that pretty much goes for everyone.
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

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grifoli

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #73 on: April 20, 2009, 06:38:15 AM »
If Dark Energy is blocked by the Earth, how can it push the air up into the parachute? Furthermore, if it pushes air into the parachute at this instance, why then is it not always pushing up air? Why, then, do we not have a constant updraft of air which, if it is powerful enough to succeed the Earth's acceleration and stymy the parachute's path downwards, would eventually escape us, thus obliterating the atmosphere and leaving us all to asphyxiate and die?

First of all, your username is obviously a misnomer.

Secondly, Dark Energy pushes the Earth, which in turn pushes the air. Please learn some basic fluid mechanics.

I'm sorry but I have never read this in my Fundamentals of Fluid Mechanics 5th Edition book, and not a single teacher has already taught me that.
Quote from: Neil Armstrong
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.

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Parsifal

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #74 on: April 20, 2009, 06:41:06 AM »
I'm sorry but I have never read this in my Fundamentals of Fluid Mechanics 5th Edition book, and not a single teacher has already taught me that.

You have never learned what would happen if a solid object was being accelerated into a fluid that had no way of escaping its path?
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markjo

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2009, 06:45:59 AM »
I'm sorry but I have never read this in my Fundamentals of Fluid Mechanics 5th Edition book, and not a single teacher has already taught me that.

You have never learned what would happen if a solid object was being accelerated into a fluid that had no way of escaping its path?

But the atmoplane does have a way of escaping the path of an accelerating FE.  It's called "over the edge".
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Parsifal

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2009, 06:47:07 AM »
But the atmoplane does have a way of escaping the path of an accelerating FE.  It's called "over the edge".

Dark Energy or the Greater Ice Wall keeps it in place, depending on which theory you follow.
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grifoli

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2009, 07:43:35 AM »
I'm sorry but I have never read this in my Fundamentals of Fluid Mechanics 5th Edition book, and not a single teacher has already taught me that.

You have never learned what would happen if a solid object was being accelerated into a fluid that had no way of escaping its path?

No, I've never learned that the Earth is actually pushing the air.
Quote from: Neil Armstrong
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.

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Parsifal

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2009, 07:45:26 AM »
No, I've never learned that the Earth is actually pushing the air.

Combine your knowledge of fluid dynamics with the equivalence principle, the rest follows. Don't ask me to explain, I'm drunk.
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goober1223

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2009, 10:01:08 AM »
No, I've never learned that the Earth is actually pushing the air.

Combine your knowledge of fluid dynamics with the equivalence principle, the rest follows. Don't ask me to explain, I'm drunk.

I hate to say it, guys, but as I've said before, Robosteve is right on this topic. All of this works in RE or FE. The DE pushes the earth up as well as creating an energy barrier along the edges of the earth. Of course, this should also react with the air and cause it to swirl and push up near the edges of the earth, but that doesn't matter since there is simply no way for the air to escape.

You can imagine that when the earth started to accelerate, the air was pushed down into the earth, but we are now in a steady-state, so the earth will continue to push up, and push the air up such that a parachute will slow descent. Heck, the air could have fluctuated back and forth at first, but it is now in a steady state such that the air density in all locations is fairly close to the average, and is very predictable.

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Dr Matrix

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2009, 01:06:05 PM »
I hate to say it, guys, but as I've said before, Robosteve is right on this topic. All of this works in RE or FE. The DE pushes the earth up as well as creating an energy barrier along the edges of the earth. Of course, this should also react with the air and cause it to swirl and push up near the edges of the earth, but that doesn't matter since there is simply no way for the air to escape.

You can imagine that when the earth started to accelerate, the air was pushed down into the earth, but we are now in a steady-state, so the earth will continue to push up, and push the air up such that a parachute will slow descent. Heck, the air could have fluctuated back and forth at first, but it is now in a steady state such that the air density in all locations is fairly close to the average, and is very predictable.

QFT. Good summary.
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DD2014

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2009, 01:26:05 PM »
Quote
You can imagine that when the earth started to accelerate, the air was pushed down into the earth, but we are now in a steady-state, so the earth will continue to push up, and push the air up such that a parachute will slow descent. Heck, the air could have fluctuated back and forth at first, but it is now in a steady state such that the air density in all locations is fairly close to the average, and is very predictable.

How so? If the earth is constantly accelerating up then everything should always be pushed down to the surface (like we are right now according to FET). So if this "law" apples to us why not air? How does the air fluctuate relative to the acceleration and not us? You need to have consistent results that apply to all the variables, not just the ones you want it to
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Dr Matrix

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #82 on: April 22, 2009, 01:40:46 PM »
How so? If the earth is constantly accelerating up then everything should always be pushed down to the surface (like we are right now according to FET). So if this "law" apples to us why not air? How does the air fluctuate relative to the acceleration and not us? You need to have consistent results that apply to all the variables, not just the ones you want it to

The air is pushed down onto the surface - just as it is in RET by gravity.  As previously stated, we are now in an approximate steady state where the internal pressure of the air balances the compressing force applied by the accelerating Earth.  This is exactly equivalent to RET for the same reason that the skydiver problem is equivalent.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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DD2014

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2009, 01:50:51 PM »
Ok that makes more sense.

Quote
the air could have fluctuated back and forth at first

That part confused me a little ???
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Dr Matrix

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2009, 02:00:54 PM »
I think he was talking about the initial turbulence when the Earth was formed, before steady state was established.  Obviously it's not totally steady state since we do get prevailing winds and high and low pressure regions and so on, but the two models agree as far as the current state of the atmosphere/layer goes.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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DD2014

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2009, 02:19:31 PM »
I think he was talking about the initial turbulence when the Earth was formed, before steady state was established.  Obviously it's not totally steady state since we do get prevailing winds and high and low pressure regions and so on, but the two models agree as far as the current state of the atmosphere/layer goes.

Ya, your probably right.

But high and low pressure zones have nothing to do with the acceleration of earth (FET) or gravity (RET).
I am from NASA, and I am here to disinform you...

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Dr Matrix

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #86 on: April 22, 2009, 02:45:23 PM »
But high and low pressure zones have nothing to do with the acceleration of earth (FET) or gravity (RET).[/color]

I think that's a pretty safe bet you've got there ;)
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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DD2014

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #87 on: April 22, 2009, 05:47:59 PM »
But high and low pressure zones have nothing to do with the acceleration of earth (FET) or gravity (RET).

I think that's a pretty safe bet you've got there ;)

Well at least it can be proven ;)
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Dr Matrix

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #88 on: April 23, 2009, 10:50:17 AM »
Well at least it can be proven ;)

Just like FET - look out the window; looks flat to me ;)
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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liedetector

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Re: RE Picture Proof
« Reply #89 on: April 23, 2009, 11:12:59 AM »
No, I've never learned that the Earth is actually pushing the air.

Combine your knowledge of fluid dynamics with the equivalence principle, the rest follows. Don't ask me to explain, I'm drunk.

Do you know the equivalence principle onle applies over small volumes and times?