Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #270 on: April 12, 2009, 08:43:17 PM »
Much easier that way.

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #271 on: April 12, 2009, 08:46:59 PM »
Wardogg, you're young earth?

That truly hurts when I meet young earthers.  Like, there is a depressed feeling in my heart.  I think it's utter sympathy in its truest form.  How much evidence of the age of the earth would it take for you to be dissuaded?  Because there is literally a planets worth.  Not only that, but there is universes worth of data pointing to a very old existence.  Why would an all-caring, all-loving, and all-compassionate God intentionally try to trick me into thinking the world is old when the fate of my very soul is at stake?  Basically, the all-loving God created everything 4 to 10 thousand years ago then manufactured every shred of evidence to make it look older so that if I use my brain to deduct these facts I will burn for all of existence in pure agony.

There must come a time when you have to ask yourself that.  Also, you have admitted to saying that parts of the old testament are obsolete.  You are a breath away from asking yourself questions like why God would command mass genocide?  Why would God command fetuses be destroyed?   Why would God inflict plagues on innocents?  God is sloppy in his vengeance; collateral damage isn't even a concept it considers.

Please, I implore you Wardogg, If a supreme being designed and created you, why did he design you a brain for thinking when its intended purpose was to deny facts presented to it?  The next time you hear a religious statement, wonder where and how that ideology/story/proverb/commandment was created.  Try and see if there is a use for it without God.  Does that commandment help adhere society?  Does that proverb tell me to help less fortunate?  Does that tenet seem to only serve the purpose of causing fear in people so that they come to church and tithe?  Some you will find to be truly altruistic, yet most you find further the purpose of keeping people in the church and offering them hope.  

Just... just try and not accept something because it's how you are supposed to think.  I think it's more important to be skeptical of the person (or source) presenting the information than the actual information.  If someone presents you information and then shows you evidence proving their point then that helps a lot in their credibility.  I'm not sure if I'm articulating myself very well, and I hope that you don't try and turn that point back on me (you can if you want of course, but it would be very easy to rebuke), but please don't accept something just because it's how you are told to think.  There is a wealth of information on the age of the earth, it is supported by many repeatable experiments across many fields of science.  Young earth creationists get their number from counting "begot's" in the bible.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 10:58:16 PM by Pongo »

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #272 on: April 12, 2009, 08:50:22 PM »


Here is a video on why you can't disprove God.  Also, that guy-girl in the video is pretty hot.

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Parsifal

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #273 on: April 12, 2009, 08:51:04 PM »
Wardogg, you're young earth?

Protip: Wardogg is a troll.

Also, tl;dr.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #274 on: April 12, 2009, 08:55:48 PM »
You need to stop trying to get Wardogg to reach the conclusion by himself. That's not what he wants. He wants your reasoning up front so he can brush it aside all at once and cop out.
Well then, I suppose it is good to have multiple people approaching this in different ways.
It's really just a personal preference to achieve the same goal.

Does the Wardogg have an actual answer?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Proleg

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #275 on: April 12, 2009, 09:00:49 PM »
You need to stop trying to get Wardogg to reach the conclusion by himself. That's not what he wants. He wants your reasoning up front so he can brush it aside all at once and cop out.
Well then, I suppose it is good to have multiple people approaching this in different ways.
It's really just a personal preference to achieve the same goal.

Does the Wardogg have an actual answer?
Yes: It was good enough for the Hebrew children and it's good enough for him.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #276 on: April 13, 2009, 02:38:20 PM »
Wardogg, you're young earth?

That truly hurts when I meet young earthers.  Like, there is a depressed feeling in my heart.  I think it's utter sympathy in its truest form.  How much evidence of the age of the earth would it take for you to be dissuaded?  

How much evidence would it take you to be dissuaded?

http://www.earthage.org/youngearthev/evidence_for_a_young_earth.htm
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/young-age-evidence
http://www.tim-thompson.com/young-earth.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c012.html
http://toptenproofs.com/article_youngearth.php
http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/yeclaims.html
http://www.creationevidence.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35
http://www.icr.org/article/1842/

Let me know if you need more.

Wardogg, you're young earth?

Protip: Wardogg is a troll.

Prove it.

You need to stop trying to get Wardogg to reach the conclusion by himself. That's not what he wants. He wants your reasoning up front so he can brush it aside all at once and cop out.
Well then, I suppose it is good to have multiple people approaching this in different ways.
It's really just a personal preference to achieve the same goal.

Does the Wardogg have an actual answer?

What was the question?

You need to stop trying to get Wardogg to reach the conclusion by himself. That's not what he wants. He wants your reasoning up front so he can brush it aside all at once and cop out.
Well then, I suppose it is good to have multiple people approaching this in different ways.
It's really just a personal preference to achieve the same goal.

Does the Wardogg have an actual answer?
Yes: It was good enough for the Hebrew children and it's good enough for him.

You know i hate jews.  Why even make jokes like that?


Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #277 on: April 13, 2009, 04:08:11 PM »
Thank you for finally finding some evidence. I look forward to finding holes in it.
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But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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Parsifal

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #278 on: April 13, 2009, 04:09:19 PM »
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #279 on: April 13, 2009, 05:02:38 PM »
Does the Wardogg have an actual answer?
What was the question?
There were really two of them.

1. Why should anyone have faith, especially since faith by definition is irrational?
2. If you were taught about Russel's teapot, and if it appeared in ancient literature, would you choose to believe it?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #280 on: April 13, 2009, 05:10:41 PM »
Thank you for finally finding some evidence. I look forward to finding holes in it.
I didn't even bother to read the first link for more than a minute, because the sources and conclusions are untrustworthy. I read that a christian mathematician says 'that the moon might have been receding at a very high rate in the past so it must not be older than a certain point'. When the sources are only originating from religious authorities, their guesstimates are not only prone to religious bias but definitional invalid as evidence... since they they don't provide the math, and just the conclusions. If they had math and observational data backing them (that I could check) then it would be different, and I'd happily listen. I'd venture a guess that none of the 'scientific proofs' for these conclusions have been revealed for the scientific community or for civilians to critique.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 05:20:54 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #281 on: April 13, 2009, 05:21:05 PM »
The gravitational pull between the Earth and Moon causes the Earth?s oceans to have tides.  The tidal friction  between the Earth?s terrestrial surface and the water moving over it causes energy to be  added  to the Moon.  This  "results in a constant yearly increase in the distance between the Earth and Moon."1 This tidal friction also causes the Earth?s rotation to slow down, but  more importantly,  the energy added to the Moon causes it to recede from  the  Earth.1,2   The rate  of recession was measured at  four centimeters per year in 1981; 3  however, according to Physicist Donald B. DeYoung: 

    "One cannot extrapolate the present 4 cm/year separation rate back into history. It has that value today, but was more rapid in the past because of tidal effects.  In fact, the separation rate depends on the distance to the 6th power, a very strong dependence ... the rate ... was perhaps 20 m/year ?long? ago, and the average is 1.2 m/year. 1

Because of this, the Moon must be less than 750 million years old -- or 20% of the supposed 4.5 billion-year age of the Earth-Moon system.4

    Note: Even though the maximum age obtained from this method is more than 10,000 years, it is nevertheless much younger than the alleged 4.5 billion year age for the Earth-Moon system proposed by evolutionists. Note also that nobody knows how the Moon got to be in its present orbit. All of the proposed theories as to where it came from have serious problems. It is a complete mystery ? unless of course it was designed that way from the beginning.



This was the closest I could find to hard numbers on it.
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But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #282 on: April 13, 2009, 05:23:31 PM »
Lol. 20 meters a year. How would that equal 10,000 years? that is only 200,000 meters. or 200 kilometers.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #283 on: April 13, 2009, 05:39:31 PM »
Does the Wardogg have an actual answer?
What was the question?
There were really two of them.

1. Why should anyone have faith, especially since faith by definition is irrational?
2. If you were taught about Russel's teapot, and if it appeared in ancient literature, would you choose to believe it?

1 Faith brings hope.
2 I don't see why not. Especially if it was taught by my parents as a truth.  And so would you.  You believe in things that are written (more current text granted) that have no proof.  Again I don't see the difference.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #284 on: April 13, 2009, 05:41:15 PM »
Lol. 20 meters a year. How would that equal 10,000 years? that is only 200,000 meters. or 200 kilometers.

Note: Even though the maximum age obtained from this method is more than 10,000 years, it is nevertheless much younger than the alleged 4.5 billion year age for the Earth-Moon system proposed by evolutionists. Note also that nobody knows how the Moon got to be in its present orbit. All of the proposed theories as to where it came from have serious problems. It is a complete mystery ? unless of course it was designed that way from the beginning.

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #285 on: April 13, 2009, 05:56:30 PM »
Ok. So even the creationists won't agree with the creation theory. This would obviously disprove the 4,000 year old bench mark or whatever the creationists currently use.


A date that was devised several hundred years ago by a man that is considered crazy by most modern religions. If this age can't be treated as fact why even assume the Earth is young? Genesis makes no mention of age.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #286 on: April 13, 2009, 06:08:14 PM »
Ok. So even the creationists won't agree with the creation theory. This would obviously disprove the 4,000 year old bench mark or whatever the creationists currently use.


A date that was devised several hundred years ago by a man that is considered crazy by most modern religions. If this age can't be treated as fact why even assume the Earth is young? Genesis makes no mention of age.

Not all creationists believe in the young earth.

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #287 on: April 13, 2009, 07:42:00 PM »
You were.

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Parsifal

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #289 on: April 13, 2009, 08:13:33 PM »
Protip so are you.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #290 on: April 13, 2009, 08:26:59 PM »
1. Why should anyone have faith, especially since faith by definition is irrational?
Faith brings hope.
So you admit that your reason for believing in god is only for emotional comfort, and not rational investigation?

2. If you were taught about Russel's teapot, and if it appeared in ancient literature, would you choose to believe it?

I don't see why not. Especially if it was taught by my parents as a truth.  And so would you.  You believe in things that are written (more current text granted) that have no proof.  Again I don't see the difference.
1. So you don't question the same things things now, that you are acknowledging you were once brainwashed to believe?

2. Actually I wouldn't, just as I don't. I was raised Christian, and I rejected the absurdities, assumptions, and circular logic found within all religious texts and religious concepts (the ones I was exposed to) when I reexamined them.

3. I only give credit to things that are written, peer reviewed, reproduced by the scientific community, and make logical sense.

A vague story passed down orally for generations, before being written by men, edited by men, and rewritten by men, with no actual factual verification, filled with obvious contradictions and absurdities has little sway over me. I filter my sources only to ensure that the messages I would be relying on are factual.

If something is not peer reviewed, I am skeptical. Even if the message makes sense to me.
If something has not been reproduced in a controlled environment, I am still skeptical.
If something doesn't make logical sense to me, I question it and pursue it further in case I have a conflicting misconception about it, or something that it fits with.

I have already mentioned that proof of almost anything is impossible. All I have is evidence.
The difference between us that you are overlooking, is our scrutinization of the source.  If you don't consider the validity of what you read, you might start believing Harry Potter is a real person, who uses magic wands to fight evil wizards at Hogwarts.

Why is it that religion is exempt from the scientific method in your mind?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 08:30:48 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #291 on: April 13, 2009, 08:28:51 PM »
Protip: Wardogg is a troll.
First of all, I don't have sufficient reason to suspect that.
And regardless of whether or not this is true, he still follows his own dependable rules with his posts, and that's all I need to work with.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #292 on: April 13, 2009, 10:03:17 PM »
Wardogg, you're young earth?

That truly hurts when I meet young earthers.  Like, there is a depressed feeling in my heart.  I think it's utter sympathy in its truest form.  How much evidence of the age of the earth would it take for you to be dissuaded?  

How much evidence would it take you to be dissuaded?

http://www.earthage.org/youngearthev/evidence_for_a_young_earth.htm
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/young-age-evidence
http://www.tim-thompson.com/young-earth.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c012.html
http://toptenproofs.com/article_youngearth.php
http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/yeclaims.html
http://www.creationevidence.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35
http://www.icr.org/article/1842/

Let me know if you need more.

Wardogg, all these links are from christian websites.  How come you didn't link any articles from scientific sources?  You don't get your medical, moral, or mathematical conclusions from the bible, why do you get your biological and geological conclusions from it?  (You will undoubtedly argue that statement and I will undeniably win.)  I do require more sources from you, but gladly I only need one more source.  Find me one repeatable experiment or observation from a scientific source that points to the age of the of the earth being young.  Make sure to check your facts, if you come at me with helium counts, magnetic fields, or metals in the ocean I will shred you.

SPOILER:  You will not find one.  If you can however debunk the age of the earth, your name will survive the ages along with Newton and Einstein.

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Taters343

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #293 on: April 13, 2009, 10:27:43 PM »
I just watched all of them in one sitting.

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #294 on: April 14, 2009, 05:05:55 AM »
I read the first link, and didn't find it too convincing.
It mentioned a few cases of finding dinosaur/ancient animal/plant remains that weren't consistent with the 4.5 billion year old Earth model.
Maybe they can't be adequately explained by Old Earth, but one or two anomalous results don't count as significant evidence.

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #295 on: April 14, 2009, 02:43:00 PM »
A great series of videos that explains in depth the many problems with the foundations of creationism:


If you are a creationist, please bear with me and watch it anyways. Being open minded to examine the a logical argument is never harmful. It starts off condescending, so brace yourself.  ;)
...If you are not a creationist, you may still enjoy the series anyways.


Fascinating. Through the first 4 so far and now simply must watch them all. Very compelling. This guy did quite a bit of work to bring these videos out. Thank you for passing this along.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #296 on: April 19, 2009, 07:49:35 PM »
1. Why should anyone have faith, especially since faith by definition is irrational?
Faith brings hope.
So you admit that your reason for believing in god is only for emotional comfort, and not rational investigation?

I don't know if I have a "why"  Rational investigation of what.  And how do you investigate something that happened 4.5 BILLION years ago?


2. If you were taught about Russel's teapot, and if it appeared in ancient literature, would you choose to believe it?

I don't see why not. Especially if it was taught by my parents as a truth.  And so would you.  You believe in things that are written (more current text granted) that have no proof.  Again I don't see the difference.
1. So you don't question the same things things now, that you are acknowledging you were once brainwashed to believe?

I acknowledge that i was taught to believe in something and I have no evidence to reject that teaching now.


2. Actually I wouldn't, just as I don't. I was raised Christian, and I rejected the absurdities, assumptions, and circular logic found within all religious texts and religious concepts (the ones I was exposed to) when I reexamined them.

At what age is my point.  And for what reasons.  Were you mad at mommy and daddy? :-\  Hell I still don't go to church.  Haven't since I was probably 14.  But the belief is still there.


3. I only give credit to things that are written, peer reviewed, reproduced by the scientific community, and make logical sense.

So propoganda in a different form then, got it, thanx.

A vague story passed down orally for generations, before being written by men, edited by men, and rewritten by men, with no actual factual verification, filled with obvious contradictions and absurdities has little sway over me. I filter my sources only to ensure that the messages I would be relying on are factual.

Yeah like ancient egypt.  Good to know those fuckers never existed either.

If something is not peer reviewed, I am skeptical. Even if the message makes sense to me.
If something has not been reproduced in a controlled environment, I am still skeptical.
If something doesn't make logical sense to me, I question it and pursue it further in case I have a conflicting misconception about it, or something that it fits with.

Yet you perform none of the experiments or do any investigating yourself.  Only taking the word of 5 scientists that told you they did, and agreed on a conclusion.  Interesting.

I have already mentioned that proof of almost anything is impossible. All I have is evidence.
The difference between us that you are overlooking, is our scrutinization of the source.  If you don't consider the validity of what you read, you might start believing Harry Potter is a real person, who uses magic wands to fight evil wizards at Hogwarts.

There very well may be people that think Harry exists.  And who are we to tell them otherwise.  This isn't russia. This isn't russia is it Danny?  The point being just becuase you can't see it or measure it doesn't always mean it doesn't exist.  IE Aliens, most people think they exist.  I am one of them.  That kind of goes against the bible doesn't it?  But we can't prove it, there is no evidence for it.  Thats what a belief is.  Faith.

Why is it that religion is exempt from the scientific method in your mind?

Its not.  Hence all the links I posted.  All evidence for the earth being created by something other than an accident.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #297 on: April 19, 2009, 08:07:05 PM »
SPOILER:  You will not find one.  If you can however debunk the age of the earth, your name will survive the ages along with Newton and Einstein.

And what was the guys name that proved 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt the age of the earth again?  Newton and Einstein I know.  But this guy seems to have slipped my mind.

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #298 on: April 19, 2009, 08:10:40 PM »
SPOILER:  You will not find one.  If you can however debunk the age of the earth, your name will survive the ages along with Newton and Einstein.

And what was the guys name that proved 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt the age of the earth again?  Newton and Einstein I know.  But this guy seems to have slipped my mind.

No one has proved it a certain age. People have shown absolute maximums and minimums, then there are other clues to the exact age. Something creationists don't understand. They started with an age calculated by some nutjob, then they search for evidence of this age.

Warrdog, there may be no exact known age for the universe, but it is certainly greater than a billion years old.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #299 on: April 19, 2009, 08:25:25 PM »
SPOILER:  You will not find one.  If you can however debunk the age of the earth, your name will survive the ages along with Newton and Einstein.

And what was the guys name that proved 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt the age of the earth again?  Newton and Einstein I know.  But this guy seems to have slipped my mind.

No one has proved it a certain age. People have shown absolute maximums and minimums, then there are other clues to the exact age. Something creationists don't understand. They started with an age calculated by some nutjob, then they search for evidence of this age.

Warrdog, there may be no exact known age for the universe, but it is certainly greater than a billion years old.

Certainly?  Interesting word.  Lets look at the number billion shall we?

1 billion is 1,000,000,000
    is 1 thousand, thousand, thousands = 2 x 103 x 103 x 103
    = 1 x 10^9
    or
    is 1 million thousands
    = 1 x 10^6 x 10^3
    = is 1 x 10^9

And now you are saying that it might not be 4 of these billions but its at least 1 of these billions.  Thats a pretty big fucking gap.  Big enough to leave me doubt to its validity.  I think my number while absurd to you, is no more or less plausible.