Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« on: March 31, 2009, 10:20:06 AM »
A great series of videos that explains in depth the many problems with the foundations of creationism:


If you are a creationist, please bear with me and watch it anyways. Being open minded to examine the a logical argument is never harmful. It starts off condescending, so brace yourself.  ;)
...If you are not a creationist, you may still enjoy the series anyways.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 10:29:21 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2009, 11:02:24 AM »
The video doesn't load for me.  The little circle jsut spins, and spins, and spins, and spins, and spins, I think I just fell out of my chair...............*thump*

Plus it looks like there is 15 of them at 10 min a piece.  How many do I need to watch?

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2009, 02:43:36 PM »
Plus it looks like there is 15 of them at 10 min a piece.  How many do I need to watch?
Need to watch? I'm not forcing you to watch them, but the more the better.
The same way I have not watch all the creationist videos out there, because I'm afraid I'll have a brain aneurysm, I don't expect you to finish all of them. It doesn't really matter if they won't load though.  :-\
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2009, 05:04:09 PM »
I just watched the first video.  Interesting stuff.  There is one thing I have a problem with, though.  He insists that creationism is ridiculous because it involves a god creating all life through "magic".  My issue with this is that if a god were to exist, such a being would exist outside of our universe and not be bound by its laws.  Why would an infinitely powerful god not be able to "poof" life into existence? 

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one" - Albert Einstein

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2009, 08:10:25 PM »
I just watched the first video.  Interesting stuff.  There is one thing I have a problem with, though.  He insists that creationism is ridiculous because it involves a god creating all life through "magic".  My issue with this is that if a god were to exist, such a being would exist outside of our universe and not be bound by its laws.  Why would an infinitely powerful god not be able to "poof" life into existence? 
Isn't magic just another word for supernatural?
'Super' meaning above or beyond, and 'natural' meaning the physics and laws of our universe.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2009, 08:20:46 PM »
It seemed as if he was discounting the possibility altogether.  Why wouldn't god be able to create everything at once?  Granted evolution makes much more sense, but its still possible.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one" - Albert Einstein

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2009, 08:32:29 PM »
.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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000000000000000000000000001% chance is still possible.  Yet that does not add credibility to an argument.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2009, 08:37:45 PM »
.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000001% chance is still possible.  Yet that does not add credibility to an argument.

That's funny, that's the same percentage I give an single cell hanging out by a volcanic vent turning into a Human 40 billion years later.  I've just never seen it written down before, thanx!

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2009, 08:38:45 PM »
.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000001% chance is still possible.  Yet that does not add credibility to an argument.

That's funny, that's the same percentage I give an single cell hanging out by a volcanic vent turning into a Human 40 billion years later.  I've just never seen it written down before, thanx!

The exact same number?!!? Damn, what are the odds?

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2009, 08:39:49 PM »
I'm not sure, but I bet there would be alot of zeros involved.  ;)

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2009, 08:42:53 PM »
Ok, now for the serious response.  I bet you would be surprised to know that every biologist on the planet would actually give the chances of a single celled organism evolving into a human over the course of ~40 bill years nearly an infinitely smaller chance of occurring.  Your failure resides in you having fundamentally flawed assumptions about evolution.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2009, 08:44:33 PM »
Ok, now for the serious response.  I bet you would be surprised to know that every biologist on the planet would actually give the chances of a single celled organism evolving into a human over the course of ~40 bill years nearly an infinitely smaller chance of occurring.  Your failure resides in you having fundamentally flawed assumptions about evolution.

You are correct apparently my assumptions are flawed.  Where did humans come from then if not from single celled organisms.

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2009, 08:51:47 PM »
Let me elaborate so you don't get confused.  The track record for single celled organisms evolving into humans is 1:1.  Yet the chances of it evolving into a human, as opposed to any other possible being, is infinitesimally small.  Logically, this is a moot point to argue because it does not add weight to the creationist argument.  It's like trying to say that the chances of Jupiter's mass being what it is, is 1 in 100^100^100^100^100.  Besides being impossible to actually calculate, it doesn't matter because that's what Jupiter's mass is.  Does that make sense?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 08:54:09 PM by Pongo »

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2009, 09:51:48 PM »
Let me elaborate so you don't get confused.  The track record for single celled organisms evolving into humans is 1:1.  Yet the chances of it evolving into a human, as opposed to any other possible being, is infinitesimally small.  Logically, this is a moot point to argue because it does not add weight to the creationist argument.  It's like trying to say that the chances of Jupiter's mass being what it is, is 1 in 100^100^100^100^100.  Besides being impossible to actually calculate, it doesn't matter because that's what Jupiter's mass is.  Does that make sense?

I think the point is there are so many chances and possibilities out there not to have someone "driving the bus" so to speak.  You bring up Jupiter.  Do you know Jupiter, and the other large planets out there, act as an asteroid and comet shield for earth?  Man good thing for that.  Good thing that single cell organism developed into a human instead of it just becoming a fungus.  Fungus are so boring.  The shear mathematics for all these chance happenings is just too great in my mind. 

The moon for example, what are the odds that the moon would rotate at the exact rate it takes to orbit around the earth?  What other moon in the solar system does that?  Astronomical odds.

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Proleg

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2009, 11:01:39 PM »
The video doesn't load for me.
Reload current page.

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2009, 11:08:11 PM »
Let me elaborate so you don't get confused.  The track record for single celled organisms evolving into humans is 1:1.  Yet the chances of it evolving into a human, as opposed to any other possible being, is infinitesimally small.  Logically, this is a moot point to argue because it does not add weight to the creationist argument.  It's like trying to say that the chances of Jupiter's mass being what it is, is 1 in 100^100^100^100^100.  Besides being impossible to actually calculate, it doesn't matter because that's what Jupiter's mass is.  Does that make sense?

I think the point is there are so many chances and possibilities out there not to have someone "driving the bus" so to speak.  You bring up Jupiter.  Do you know Jupiter, and the other large planets out there, act as an asteroid and comet shield for earth?  Man good thing for that.  Good thing that single cell organism developed into a human instead of it just becoming a fungus.  Fungus are so boring.  The shear mathematics for all these chance happenings is just too great in my mind. 

The moon for example, what are the odds that the moon would rotate at the exact rate it takes to orbit around the earth?  What other moon in the solar system does that?  Astronomical odds.

Ok, obviously that didn't make sense to you. let me try again.  Certain conditions have to be met in order for life (as we know it) to exist.  Off the top of my head, the star in the solar system has to be a second generation star so that there is an abundance of heavier elements.  The planet in question has to have enough hydrogen and oxygen to form water.  The planet has to be within but not exceeding a certain zone in order for liquid water to form.  The core of the plant cannot have cooled.  There has to be a massive gravity well to keep comets away.  The planet has to me massive enough to hold an ozone to keep solar radiation away... That's all I can think of.  Anyways, what I'm saying is that it is pointless to try and calculate the odds of this occurring when you are here to calculate the odds of this occurring.  Everyone will agree with you that it would be rare among solar systems, but it has happened.  If you walk outside and pick up a rock, the chances of all the atoms coalescing in that exact configuration to form that rock are astronomically small.  Does that mean that the rock had a creator?  No.  Does that mean that the chances of the rock being formed are so so so small that it cannot exist?  No.  It means that while that exact rock's state is impossible to exactly duplicate, it was still nevertheless formed.

You only think that it's good that a single celled organism formed into humans because that's what happened.  If it had evolved into a super smart reptile race, they would think it fortunate that the organism evolved into them.  The over all point I'm trying to make here is that you have a misunderstanding of evolution.  You are looking at it like it has an end goal.  Yes, the chances of a cell evolving into humans is so small it's not worth calculating.  But it did.  You need to look at evolution the other way around.  A cell existed, it 'wanted' to survive.  Through natural selection it become dominate and evolved.  Through natural selection all of our genes were selected  and we became what we are today.  There are trillions and trillions of different ways that cell could have evolved, it just happened to do it this way.  So I state again, the track record for a one celled organism becoming man 1:1.  The chances of it becoming anything else?  Incalculably large.

The moon always faces the earth because of what is known as tidal locking.  Every significant moon in the solar system is tidally locked with it's plant.  Charon and Pluto(RIP) are even both tidally locked with each other.  So the odds of this happening?  I'm just guessing here, but I would say maybe 90 to 95%?  I would only call those odds astronomical because we are talking about space.

PS: You misunderstood me.  I was talking about the mass of my Lord and Savior Jupiter, king of the gods.

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2009, 12:24:59 AM »
I just watched the first video.  Interesting stuff.  There is one thing I have a problem with, though.  He insists that creationism is ridiculous because it involves a god creating all life through "magic".  My issue with this is that if a god were to exist, such a being would exist outside of our universe and not be bound by its laws.  Why would an infinitely powerful god not be able to "poof" life into existence? 

It's not that he is arguing against that possibility, he is saying why would god then manufacture all this evidence that the Earth is older and that evolution happened.

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2009, 12:43:20 AM »
I just watched the first video.  Interesting stuff.  There is one thing I have a problem with, though.  He insists that creationism is ridiculous because it involves a god creating all life through "magic".  My issue with this is that if a god were to exist, such a being would exist outside of our universe and not be bound by its laws.  Why would an infinitely powerful god not be able to "poof" life into existence? 

It's not that he is arguing against that possibility, he is saying why would god then manufacture all this evidence that the Earth is older and that evolution happened.
I re-watched it and that does seem to be the case.  I think I'll have to watch his other videos now.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one" - Albert Einstein

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2009, 01:21:09 AM »
Let me elaborate so you don't get confused.  The track record for single celled organisms evolving into humans is 1:1.  Yet the chances of it evolving into a human, as opposed to any other possible being, is infinitesimally small.  Logically, this is a moot point to argue because it does not add weight to the creationist argument.  It's like trying to say that the chances of Jupiter's mass being what it is, is 1 in 100^100^100^100^100.  Besides being impossible to actually calculate, it doesn't matter because that's what Jupiter's mass is.  Does that make sense?

I think the point is there are so many chances and possibilities out there not to have someone "driving the bus" so to speak.  You bring up Jupiter.  Do you know Jupiter, and the other large planets out there, act as an asteroid and comet shield for earth?  Man good thing for that.  Good thing that single cell organism developed into a human instead of it just becoming a fungus.  Fungus are so boring.  The shear mathematics for all these chance happenings is just too great in my mind. 

The moon for example, what are the odds that the moon would rotate at the exact rate it takes to orbit around the earth?  What other moon in the solar system does that?  Astronomical odds.

Ok, obviously that didn't make sense to you. let me try again.  Certain conditions have to be met in order for life (as we know it) to exist.  Off the top of my head, the star in the solar system has to be a second generation star so that there is an abundance of heavier elements.  The planet in question has to have enough hydrogen and oxygen to form water.  The planet has to be within but not exceeding a certain zone in order for liquid water to form.  The core of the plant cannot have cooled.  There has to be a massive gravity well to keep comets away.  The planet has to me massive enough to hold an ozone to keep solar radiation away... That's all I can think of.  Anyways, what I'm saying is that it is pointless to try and calculate the odds of this occurring when you are here to calculate the odds of this occurring.  Everyone will agree with you that it would be rare among solar systems, but it has happened.  If you walk outside and pick up a rock, the chances of all the atoms coalescing in that exact configuration to form that rock are astronomically small.  Does that mean that the rock had a creator?  No.  Does that mean that the chances of the rock being formed are so so so small that it cannot exist?  No.  It means that while that exact rock's state is impossible to exactly duplicate, it was still nevertheless formed.

You only think that it's good that a single celled organism formed into humans because that's what happened.  If it had evolved into a super smart reptile race, they would think it fortunate that the organism evolved into them.  The over all point I'm trying to make here is that you have a misunderstanding of evolution.  You are looking at it like it has an end goal.  Yes, the chances of a cell evolving into humans is so small it's not worth calculating.  But it did.  You need to look at evolution the other way around.  A cell existed, it 'wanted' to survive.  Through natural selection it become dominate and evolved.  Through natural selection all of our genes were selected  and we became what we are today.  There are trillions and trillions of different ways that cell could have evolved, it just happened to do it this way.  So I state again, the track record for a one celled organism becoming man 1:1.  The chances of it becoming anything else?  Incalculably large.

The moon always faces the earth because of what is known as tidal locking.  Every significant moon in the solar system is tidally locked with it's plant.  Charon and Pluto(RIP) are even both tidally locked with each other.  So the odds of this happening?  I'm just guessing here, but I would say maybe 90 to 95%?  I would only call those odds astronomical because we are talking about space.

PS: You misunderstood me.  I was talking about the mass of my Lord and Savior Jupiter, king of the gods.

I just read a very interesting article on tidal locking.  Thank you.

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2009, 09:11:38 AM »
Aye, it's sad to say, but you must always check facts presented to you from religiously motivated people.  Especially in regards to science.

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2009, 10:13:32 AM »
I'm not sure, but I bet there would be alot of zeros involved.  ;)

I've forgotten the exact number, but the chance of even the most simple proteins being randomly created is about 1 in 1^10xabout 2.6 billion.....

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2009, 10:32:14 AM »
Good thing proteins were never randomly created. They were assembled from amino acids that were randomly created. And by randomly created I mean created following basic rules that we observe to this day that were probably not factored in to your "random" creation.

Learn2simplebiology.

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2009, 10:55:34 AM »
I'm not sure, but I bet there would be alot of zeros involved.  ;)

I've forgotten the exact number, but the chance of even the most simple proteins being randomly created is about 1 in 1^10xabout 2.6 billion.....

Am I explaining myself poorly or are you guys not listening?

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2009, 11:49:23 AM »
I'm not sure, but I bet there would be alot of zeros involved.  ;)

I've forgotten the exact number, but the chance of even the most simple proteins being randomly created is about 1 in 1^10xabout 2.6 billion.....

Am I explaining myself poorly or are you guys not listening?

We're having a balanced debate.
Good thing proteins were never randomly created. They were assembled from amino acids that were randomly created. And by randomly created I mean created following basic rules that we observe to this day that were probably not factored in to your "random" creation.

Learn2simplebiology.

Don't state theories as if they're fact.
Also, are you suggesting that proteins are made from amino acids, but not randomly?
They knew what to do?  :o
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 11:55:04 AM by Eddy Baby »

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Pongo

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2009, 12:00:03 PM »
Aha. Wrong number of mine then. I'll just go and find out what is actually to the power of 2.6 billion, as it will have been in the same chapter of the book......

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2009, 12:00:38 PM »
Non random does not apply knowledge.

 ::)

When DNA is replicated it is not a random process, but I doubt anyone believes that genes know what to do. They follow basic rules.

Again learn2simple biology.

And yes, proteins are made up of amino acids, the amino acids can only form into certain proteins in certain configurations. A randomly formed protein means thousands of atoms randomly came together to form a protein. That would be incredible.

Also, something that is observed is a fact. We watch amino acids form proteins.

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2009, 12:01:59 PM »
Aha. Wrong number of mine then. I'll just go and find out what is actually to the power of 2.6 billion, as it will have been in the same chapter of the book......

You're missing the point.  The number is irrelevant.  Here is a video that will explain a lot for you.  It's an hour long, but it will enrich your life.  


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Eddy Baby

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2009, 12:05:08 PM »
Just for the record, my number was the amount of combinations a strand of DNA can give....


Non random does not apply knowledge.

 ::)

When DNA is replicated it is not a random process, but I doubt anyone believes that genes know what to do. They follow basic rules.

Again learn2simple biology.

And yes, proteins are made up of amino acids, the amino acids can only form into certain proteins in certain configurations. A randomly formed protein means thousands of atoms randomly came together to form a protein. That would be incredible.

Also, something that is observed is a fact. We watch amino acids form proteins.

Please stop being patronising, it's not making any friends.

I meant the concept of creating proteins, not reproducing proteins.

Nobody was alive to watch the creation of the first protein, obviously.

lrn2notbepatronisingifyoudontquiteunderstandwhattherpersonisreferringto.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 12:09:28 PM by Eddy Baby »

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2009, 12:38:13 PM »
I'm sorry, if you understood what you were talking about I wouldn't be patronizing.

The number of possible strands of DNA is irrelevant. Especially considering the length of what the originals would have to be.

And if something is only true if you were there to watch it be made that would disprove God rather quickly.