Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2009, 01:15:35 PM »
The entire cell didn't spontaneously form. And I showed an amino acid chain of 32 amino acids that self replicated. It was also considered a protein.

No one said it was average proteins self replicating.

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2009, 01:16:45 PM »
I'm just saying the number you gave had almost no numbers backing up your statement the chance of a self replicating protein being 10^260.
You just showed how much proteins you could make if you used 200 amino acids. that does not show either A. that it needs to be 200 long in order to replicate, or B. that there is only one way of making a protein that has 200 units long that can replicate. So I agree with raist unless you can find evidence to support both A. and B. then that number is meaningless in this argument.
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Eddy Baby

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2009, 01:22:10 PM »
I'm just saying the number you gave had almost no numbers backing up your statement the chance of a self replicating protein being 10^260.
You just showed how much proteins you could make if you used 200 amino acids. that does not show either A. that it needs to be 200 long in order to replicate, or B. that there is only one way of making a protein that has 200 units long that can replicate. So I agree with raist unless you can find evidence to support both A. and B. then that number is meaningless in this argument.

TBH I don't know why you don't all get this.

Someone a long long time ago said that there was a very small chance of creationism being correct. I then mentioned the apparent chance of life forming on its own, if it had been like this. Please understand.

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2009, 01:40:57 PM »
We all get what you are saying, what you aren't understanding is that we are saying that the number you quoted, and indeed the entire argument of the chance of life forming (in regards to someone throwing out a large number and implying logically that abiogenesis is wrong because of it) is irrelevant.

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2009, 01:52:01 PM »
Care to elaborate? I really really want to stop posting on this thread now.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2009, 01:58:02 PM »
I'll elaborate for you.  Humans did not evolve up from a single string of amino acid proteins, or whateverthefuck their called.

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2009, 01:58:58 PM »
I'll elaborate for you.  Humans did not evolve up from a single string of amino acid proteins, or whateverthefuck their called.

The proper term is they're.

Ok, so prove it.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2009, 02:04:13 PM »
I'll elaborate for you.  Humans did not evolve up from a single string of amino acid proteins, or whateverthefuck their called.

The proper term is they're.

Ok, so prove it.
'

Fuck, I hate it when I miss those.


You prove yours first, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that your aminos formed the way you say they did 45 billion years ago.  End results don't count as proof.

In fact I'd rather not even have you prove that.  Prove to me how water got on the planet 45 billion years ago.  If you can prove that I will be willing to examine abiogensis a little closer.

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2009, 02:10:40 PM »
4.5 billion. the universe isn't 45 billion old.
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2009, 02:13:43 PM »
Fine, would you like me to edit my post?

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2009, 02:17:13 PM »
Well you just started arguing and all ready proved you don't know that much about the topic.
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2009, 02:18:10 PM »
Well you just started arguing and all ready proved you don't know that much about the topic.

I don't know much about Batman and Robin either, doesn't make them real now does it?

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2009, 02:19:44 PM »
Well you just started arguing and all ready proved you don't know that much about the topic.

Everyone should contribute what little they know. Just because they don't know much doesn't mean they'll abandon logic when talking about it...

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2009, 02:41:42 PM »
hydrogen is the most common element in the solar system, oxygen is the third most common. H2O is the common molucule. How could it not have been there?

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2009, 02:47:02 PM »
I'll elaborate for you.  Humans did not evolve up from a single string of amino acid proteins, or whateverthefuck their called.

The proper term is they're.

Ok, so prove it.
'

Fuck, I hate it when I miss those.


You prove yours first, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that your aminos formed the way you say they did 45 billion years ago.  End results don't count as proof.

In fact I'd rather not even have you prove that.  Prove to me how water got on the planet 45 billion years ago.  If you can prove that I will be willing to examine abiogensis a little closer.

Most of the universe is hydrogen. That part is easy. Stars form oxygen through fusion in the later parts of their life.

Supernovas form a nebula. The nebula had hydrogen and oxygen. Our planet formed along with the sun in this nebula. It pulled oxygen and hydrogen in various forms to the earth. They combined.
Heating up hydrogen in the presence of oxygen causes water. This can be seen fairly easily.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #75 on: April 02, 2009, 03:10:00 PM »
hydrogen is the most common element in the solar system, oxygen is the third most common. H2O is the common molucule. How could it not have been there?

Interesting, considering we are the only known planet to have water.


Most of the universe is hydrogen. That part is easy. Stars form oxygen through fusion in the later parts of their life.

Supernovas form a nebula. The nebula had hydrogen and oxygen. Our planet formed along with the sun in this nebula. It pulled oxygen and hydrogen in various forms to the earth. They combined.
Heating up hydrogen in the presence of oxygen causes water. This can be seen fairly easily.

So did 8 other planets.  (fuck you scientists, pluto counts.)  Yet none of the others have it.   Thats still just a hypothesis on how water formed here.  Not proof.  Ive read some scientists believe comets coming close by or even crashing into earth may have caused it.  Hypothesis.  (whats the plural for hypothesis anyway?)

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Isaac

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2009, 03:12:48 PM »
hydrogen is the most common element in the solar system, oxygen is the third most common. H2O is the common molucule. How could it not have been there?

Interesting, considering we are the only known planet to have water.


Most of the universe is hydrogen. That part is easy. Stars form oxygen through fusion in the later parts of their life.

Supernovas form a nebula. The nebula had hydrogen and oxygen. Our planet formed along with the sun in this nebula. It pulled oxygen and hydrogen in various forms to the earth. They combined.
Heating up hydrogen in the presence of oxygen causes water. This can be seen fairly easily.

So did 8 other planets.  (fuck you scientists, pluto counts.)  Yet none of the others have it.   Thats still just a hypothesis on how water formed here.  Not proof.  Ive read some scientists believe comets coming close by or even crashing into earth may have caused it.  Hypothesis.  (whats the plural for hypothesis anyway?)

I'm totally on your side dude, but Mars has known ice caps.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #77 on: April 02, 2009, 03:15:09 PM »
hydrogen is the most common element in the solar system, oxygen is the third most common. H2O is the common molucule. How could it not have been there?

Interesting, considering we are the only known planet to have water.


Most of the universe is hydrogen. That part is easy. Stars form oxygen through fusion in the later parts of their life.

Supernovas form a nebula. The nebula had hydrogen and oxygen. Our planet formed along with the sun in this nebula. It pulled oxygen and hydrogen in various forms to the earth. They combined.
Heating up hydrogen in the presence of oxygen causes water. This can be seen fairly easily.

So did 8 other planets.  (fuck you scientists, pluto counts.)  Yet none of the others have it.   Thats still just a hypothesis on how water formed here.  Not proof.  Ive read some scientists believe comets coming close by or even crashing into earth may have caused it.  Hypothesis.  (whats the plural for hypothesis anyway?)

I'm totally on your side dude, but Mars has known ice caps.

Im glad you are on my side, but you need to read up.  Mars' polar caps are frozen CO2 or "dry ice".

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2009, 03:16:16 PM »
I'm at work now typing on my phone so I soooooo hope Raist owns you. You really should fact check before posting.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #79 on: April 02, 2009, 03:20:16 PM »
Why, because some radar thing says that there might be water under the 8 foot of CO2 ice that sits on top of the poles?  Until we go there and do a direct analysis we will never know for sure.

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EnigmaZV

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #80 on: April 02, 2009, 03:56:35 PM »
I believe Jupiter's moon Europa has been found to have water on it.

Also,

Quote
When the probe took photos of a ditch it had dug four days before, scientists noticed that about eight small crumbs of a bright material had disappeared. They concluded those crumbs had been water ice buried under a thin layer of dirt that vaporized when Phoenix exposed them to the air...

...Phoenix's robotic arm first revealed the crumbs about 5 cm deep in the trench called "Dodo-Goldilocks" on June 15. By June 19, they had vanished. If the crumbs had been salt, they wouldn't have disappeared, scientists said, and if the ice had been made of carbon dioxide, they wouldn't have vaporized.

Source:http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080620-phoenix-ice-update.html

I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #81 on: April 02, 2009, 05:20:35 PM »
hydrogen is the most common element in the solar system, oxygen is the third most common. H2O is the common molucule. How could it not have been there?

Interesting, considering we are the only known planet to have water.


Most of the universe is hydrogen. That part is easy. Stars form oxygen through fusion in the later parts of their life.

Supernovas form a nebula. The nebula had hydrogen and oxygen. Our planet formed along with the sun in this nebula. It pulled oxygen and hydrogen in various forms to the earth. They combined.
Heating up hydrogen in the presence of oxygen causes water. This can be seen fairly easily.

So did 8 other planets.  (fuck you scientists, pluto counts.)  Yet none of the others have it.   Thats still just a hypothesis on how water formed here.  Not proof.  Ive read some scientists believe comets coming close by or even crashing into earth may have caused it.  Hypothesis.  (whats the plural for hypothesis anyway?)


Water is on mars. Sucks for you.

The temperature on the rest could be prohibitive to water formation. Like mercury, where it is so hot water separates to hydrogen and oxygen.

Before you ask why it formed here unlike other planets, just realize if it hadn't formed here we wouldn't be having this debate so it is pointless.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/799552.stm

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12026

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/20/mars-frozen-water.html


And the radar you are referring to has been tested on Earth many times to find liquid water.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 05:22:58 PM by Raist »

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #82 on: April 02, 2009, 07:20:07 PM »
I believe Jupiter's moon Europa has been found to have water on it.

Also,

Quote
When the probe took photos of a ditch it had dug four days before, scientists noticed that about eight small crumbs of a bright material had disappeared. They concluded those crumbs had been water ice buried under a thin layer of dirt that vaporized when Phoenix exposed them to the air...

...Phoenix's robotic arm first revealed the crumbs about 5 cm deep in the trench called "Dodo-Goldilocks" on June 15. By June 19, they had vanished. If the crumbs had been salt, they wouldn't have disappeared, scientists said, and if the ice had been made of carbon dioxide, they wouldn't have vaporized.

Source:http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080620-phoenix-ice-update.html



Here let me highlight some of your "evidence"    They concluded those crumbs had been water ice   Hmmm, they concluded.  Not proved, not for sure, they guessed.   Sounds like a hypothesis to me.


Water is on mars. Sucks for you.

The temperature on the rest could be prohibitive to water formation. Like mercury, where it is so hot water separates to hydrogen and oxygen.

Before you ask why it formed here unlike other planets, just realize if it hadn't formed here we wouldn't be having this debate so it is pointless.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/799552.stm

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12026

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/20/mars-frozen-water.html


And the radar you are referring to has been tested on Earth many times to find liquid water.

Here's some quotes from your articles,

The first one - The images show what appears to be brackish water seeping from beneath the Martian surface.  The discovery, if confirmed, will mark a turning point in our exploration of the Red Planet

Oops, that one didn't work, lets go to the next one.

Second article - Updated June '07: The researchers have retracted their claim about the possibility of standing water on Mars after readers pointed out the terrain lies on the sloped wall of a crater. 

Uhoh, that's strike two.  Shall we go for the Trifecta?

Third article - "A key question is 'How did the ice get there in the first place?

While I didn't find a smoking gun, so to speak, in this article I did find the same question I asked about the planet earth.  These are scientists here, you would think they would know about all this O2 and H floating around in the universe just waiting to collide a bond making H2O.

Im sorry Raist but your evidence is extremely lacking and definately not what I would call proof by any sense of the word.


So from this we can say that your original argument of it "just happened" isn't going to work.  Are we going to start debating comets now?

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #83 on: April 02, 2009, 07:22:04 PM »
I'm at work now typing on my phone so I soooooo hope Raist owns you. You really should fact check before posting.

I guess that didn't work out as well as you hoped, did it? 

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #84 on: April 02, 2009, 08:02:21 PM »
Okay four of the 9 planets are gas giants. so they couldn't have water.
two of the planets are too hot too have liquid water.
We don't know what composes Pluto  surface, and mars doesn't have enough gravity two hold onto an atmosphere. without an atmosphere all the water would evaporate and get blown away by the solar wind. in fact the only molecule  that seems to be able to stay on mars in a gas phase is CO2 which is over twice as heavy as H20. So although there is no water on the surface of any of any of the planets there is a logical reason for it.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 08:17:01 PM by optimisticcynic »
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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #85 on: April 02, 2009, 08:15:55 PM »
I believe Jupiter's moon Europa has been found to have water on it.

Also,

Quote
When the probe took photos of a ditch it had dug four days before, scientists noticed that about eight small crumbs of a bright material had disappeared. They concluded those crumbs had been water ice buried under a thin layer of dirt that vaporized when Phoenix exposed them to the air...

...Phoenix's robotic arm first revealed the crumbs about 5 cm deep in the trench called "Dodo-Goldilocks" on June 15. By June 19, they had vanished. If the crumbs had been salt, they wouldn't have disappeared, scientists said, and if the ice had been made of carbon dioxide, they wouldn't have vaporized.

Source:http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080620-phoenix-ice-update.html



Here let me highlight some of your "evidence"    They concluded those crumbs had been water ice   Hmmm, they concluded.  Not proved, not for sure, they guessed.   Sounds like a hypothesis to me.


Water is on mars. Sucks for you.

The temperature on the rest could be prohibitive to water formation. Like mercury, where it is so hot water separates to hydrogen and oxygen.

Before you ask why it formed here unlike other planets, just realize if it hadn't formed here we wouldn't be having this debate so it is pointless.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/799552.stm

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12026

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/20/mars-frozen-water.html


And the radar you are referring to has been tested on Earth many times to find liquid water.

Here's some quotes from your articles,

The first one - The images show what appears to be brackish water seeping from beneath the Martian surface.  The discovery, if confirmed, will mark a turning point in our exploration of the Red Planet

Oops, that one didn't work, lets go to the next one.

Second article - Updated June '07: The researchers have retracted their claim about the possibility of standing water on Mars after readers pointed out the terrain lies on the sloped wall of a crater. 

Uhoh, that's strike two.  Shall we go for the Trifecta?

Third article - "A key question is 'How did the ice get there in the first place?

While I didn't find a smoking gun, so to speak, in this article I did find the same question I asked about the planet earth.  These are scientists here, you would think they would know about all this O2 and H floating around in the universe just waiting to collide a bond making H2O.

Im sorry Raist but your evidence is extremely lacking and definately not what I would call proof by any sense of the word.


So from this we can say that your original argument of it "just happened" isn't going to work.  Are we going to start debating comets now?


Find a single scientist who does not know how water got here and I'll show you someone that needs to take a little more chemistry.

The reason they are doubtful about mars is because it lacks an atmosphere.

Look up jupiter's moons. One of them is covered in ice. Water ice.

http://www.solarviews.com/eng/europa.htm

Then we have comets made of ice. You are trying to make water sound like this rare chemical that only exists in select quantities in rare places. It is a compound easily made from two common atoms.

http://www.u24u.com/


this article is on water being one of the most abundant chemicals in the universe.

Water is not rare.

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #86 on: April 02, 2009, 08:20:03 PM »
Pluto is also mostly ice and its moon Charon is suspected to have water.  Hell, even the Sun is thought to have trace amounts of water vapor.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one" - Albert Einstein

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #87 on: April 02, 2009, 08:22:52 PM »
Warrdog will switch from "god made the earth special, that's why it has water" to the equally profound "god made water everywhere so Earth could exist"


I ask you this warrdog, do you seriously think god, with infinite power, infinite time, infinite wisdom, poofed the earth into existence exactly as it was 8,000 years ago, but made it look much older. Then he explained it to the people of long ago who did not really care about its age. Then we develop ways to figure out about how old it is, and he feels no need to tell us we are wrong?

Why didn't god create the universe the way it looks like it is created? Do you seriously believe he lacks the power to set up every event and miracle he wanted to happen from the beginning?

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #88 on: April 02, 2009, 08:37:59 PM »
Pluto is also mostly ice and its moon Charon is suspected to have water.  Hell, even the Sun is thought to have trace amounts of water vapor.
Do we actually know that about Pluto? I thought that was just theorized.
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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #89 on: April 02, 2009, 08:44:25 PM »
Everything I have read has stated that the ice on Pluto is at least partly composed of frozen water.  The rest is mostly frozen nitrogen, I believe.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one" - Albert Einstein