religeon good or bad

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religeon good or bad
« on: March 18, 2009, 09:15:22 PM »
has religion been a positive or a negative influence in the world as a whole? Has it saved more lives then it has killed? all religions not just one in particular.
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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2009, 09:26:15 PM »
Personally I don't believe the human race would be were it is with out religion. primitive tribes needed a god to make them work for a common goal. people often disagree with each other and primitive tribes probably wouldn't have gotten very big without them. you don't need to listen to someone in a far off part of the land because they sent you a message to do something if they aren't around to threaten you. However if your god wants you to do something well you better do it. It aloud large groups of people to build a civilization together. without it we would probably still be living in mud huts listening to the person that is the best fighter.
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Pongo

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2009, 10:11:28 PM »



This pic is from the complete nonsense page.  posted by LT I think.
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=26829.860

Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2009, 10:48:32 PM »
I do agree that religion was an important motivator for early tribes and it was useful to explain things when technology was insufficient to.  The problem is that it can motivate people to do bad things as well as good.  I think that it really doesn't do much good these days, except for giving hope to the hopeless.  So I guess it is more beneficial for the individual, not really for society as a whole.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2009, 10:57:13 PM »



This pic is from the complete nonsense page.  posted by LT I think.
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=26829.860

The problem with that pic is its only looking at Western advancement. There was no 'hole' in technological and scientific advancement at that time in China yet we're still not exploring the galaxy yet.
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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2009, 11:06:23 PM »
However if your god wants you to do something well you better do it. It aloud large groups of people to build a civilization together.
That's nonsense. These two sentences don't follow. We can still build a civilization together without God.

Personally I don't believe the human race would be were it is with out religion
Humans would have been better off without religion.


A real case on the Superconducting Super Collider, when CERN plans to build it in Texas:

Congressman: Can we find God with this thing?

Physicist: (Doesn't know what to say)... No, but we can find the Higgs Boson.

In the next day, the project was canceled.

 The problem is that it can motivate people to do bad things as well as good. 
This is true. Religion does not teach us about morality. We use morality to interpret the teachings of religion, according to philosopher John Arthur. It's the other way around.

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2009, 11:07:04 PM »
The problem with that pic is its only looking at Western advancement. There was no 'hole' in technological and scientific advancement at that time in China yet we're still not exploring the galaxy yet.

Ohhh sick burn!

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Pongo

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2009, 11:58:27 PM »
The problem with that pic is its only looking at Western advancement. There was no 'hole' in technological and scientific advancement at that time in China yet we're still not exploring the galaxy yet.

Ohhh sick burn!


Ok, granted, that pic only addresses Christianity's influence on the stifling of religion, but there are most certainly gaps caused by other religions.  Genghis Khan and his progeny were instrumental in the destruction of the Arab culture.  They wrecked that place, they came in and completely devastated their ability to grow crops by destroying irrigation systems and burning libraries to the ground.  What does that have to do with religion suppressing the advancement of technology?  Not much, a minor set back at best.  But the institutions that followed are still suppressing technology to this day.  That's what happened after the fall of Rome.  As for the stagnation of Chinese technological development, it was again clearly a matter of religion.  Joseph Needham wrote in Science and Civilization of China:

"It was not that there was no order in nature for the Chinese, but rather that it was not an order ordained by a rational personal being, and hence there was no conviction that rational personal beings would be able to spell out in their lesser earthly languages the divine code of laws which he had decreed aforetime. The Taoists, indeed, would have scorned such an idea as being too naive for the subtlety and complexity of the universe as they intuited it."

To summarize, the religious structure of the Chinese elites scorned any ideas that contradicted their beliefs.

Christians retarded Europe, Muslims retarded Arabia, Taoists retarded China.  These are facts.



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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2009, 07:22:01 AM »
Erm I'm pretty sure Ghengis Khan wasn't destroying Arab culture because of religion.
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Pongo

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2009, 08:05:49 AM »
I'm sorry if my post mislead you, that's not the point I was trying to make.  What I was trying to say was that warlords set back tech advancement, religion cripples it.

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2009, 08:08:17 AM »
Ah right
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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2009, 08:11:26 AM »
However if your god wants you to do something well you better do it. It aloud large groups of people to build a civilization together.
That's nonsense. These two sentences don't follow. We can still build a civilization together without God.



I would like an example of a primitive culture that didn't at least worship the sun. Yes a group of intelligent people can build a working civilization without a god. However could a group of primitives do it? If they can please give an example.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 08:19:30 AM by optimisticcynic »
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Pongo

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2009, 09:48:25 AM »
http://richarddawkins.net/article,3373,Why-we-believe-in-gods,J-Anderson-Thomson

Very long video, I don't recommend you clicking it unless you are very interested in the topic.

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Raist

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2009, 11:10:24 AM »



This pic is from the complete nonsense page.  posted by LT I think.
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=26829.860

That chart is misleading. Technology did not go up in one curve. The greeks caused new technology then the muslims stole their ideas after burning some of their library to heat the greek hot baths. After this the muslims became the technological center of the world and improved technology and reason. The Christian church actually is responsible for saving some greek history/ideas that fled to Europe and were protected there.

That graph is probably complete bullshit. At most the dark ages put Europe back some time, but Europe had lost its great centers of knowledge long before this.

Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2009, 12:16:19 PM »
the church does seem to try to stop advancement of science. It fears them finding something that goes against their doctrine.
Galileo being a prime example.
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Raist

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2009, 12:17:51 PM »
They feared nothing. They agreed with galileo and said he was right. They only asked him for a few years before he released it to the general public. They wanted to be able to slowly shift their doctrine to match his findings, he wasn't punished for what he believed but for not cooperating.

Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2009, 12:30:38 PM »
If I remember right they officially admitted Galileo was right in the 80s. that is a long time to wait to shift your doctrine.
Second he got permission from the church to publish it before hand. it is when people started paying attention to it that they made him say he was wrong. And isn't that the point that religion slowed down scientific advancement.
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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2009, 01:22:51 PM »
However if your god wants you to do something well you better do it. It aloud large groups of people to build a civilization together.
That's nonsense. These two sentences don't follow. We can still build a civilization together without God.



I would like an example of a primitive culture that didn't at least worship the sun. Yes a group of intelligent people can build a working civilization without a god. However could a group of primitives do it? If they can please give an example.

I can't think of any examples offhand, but even if there are none, that doesn't prove that religion was responsible for their success.  All it proves is the ubiquity of religion.  There may be no examples of successful, atheistic, primitive tribes, but are there any examples of tribes that failed because of their lack of religion?

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Pongo

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2009, 01:24:29 PM »
Of course it's a bull shit picture.  Are you all retarded? It's meant to illustrate the suppression of technology directly brought on by the doctrine of Christianity.  It's NOT meant to be the definitive time line of all technological advancement of every fold and facet of humanity.  Religion suppressed technology in the past and they are trying to do it today with stem cell research, evolution, astronomy, and other fields.  They aren't killing people for conducting scientific experiments, but they are indoctrinating children into archaic belief structures and teaching them to reject certain area's of science.  Something that is tantamount to child abuse.  Religion might have helped primitive humanity off the grasslands, I have not read into the topic enough to decide (one could effectively argue that the ubiquity of religion might indicate some sort of genetic predisposition to the concept), but organized religion has been obsolete for more than 60,000 years.

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Raist

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2009, 01:43:10 PM »
If I remember right they officially admitted Galileo was right in the 80s. that is a long time to wait to shift your doctrine.
Second he got permission from the church to publish it before hand. it is when people started paying attention to it that they made him say he was wrong. And isn't that the point that religion slowed down scientific advancement.

The church admitting to someone they are right and officially recognizing something are two different thigns, also, it wasn't that they admitted he was right in the eighties, they gave him an officially apology in the 80's. He was punished for perhaps heresy, but they had asked him to wait a few years to release his work.

As for religion slowing down science, it is more totalitarian governments of any kind slow down scientific advance. Anyone that requires complete control over their people also needs intellectual control.

Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2009, 01:47:18 PM »
that's only a wild guess with no evidence to back it up (so don't ask for it) but did religion really slow scientific progress? i personally work harder if there's an "enemy" to fight. couldn't that apply also to the religion - science relationship? eg without religion maybe slow but steady advancement, with religion eras of fast development and eras of slow development.

Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2009, 03:28:47 PM »
that's only a wild guess with no evidence to back it up (so don't ask for it) but did religion really slow scientific progress? i personally work harder if there's an "enemy" to fight. couldn't that apply also to the religion - science relationship? eg without religion maybe slow but steady advancement, with religion eras of fast development and eras of slow development.
I really don't think scientists need religion to motivate them.  I think they continue to search for answers simply because they don't have them, not because they are trying to disprove god.  I still stick to my original statement that most religions do more harm than good, though that's not to say they don't do any good at all. 

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2009, 05:29:49 PM »
It depends on what outcome you desire for humanity. It can only be considered "good" or "bad" in its level of effectiveness in achieving such an outcome. Many do not consider scientific advancement to be the sole measure of a civilization.

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Raist

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2009, 06:08:49 PM »
If fucked up porn is the indicator you use, japan has reached unprecedented levels of greatness. Surpassing the greeks even.

Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2009, 07:26:53 PM »
However if your god wants you to do something well you better do it. It aloud large groups of people to build a civilization together.
That's nonsense. These two sentences don't follow. We can still build a civilization together without God.



I would like an example of a primitive culture that didn't at least worship the sun. Yes a group of intelligent people can build a working civilization without a god. However could a group of primitives do it? If they can please give an example.

I can't think of any examples offhand, but even if there are none, that doesn't prove that religion was responsible for their success.  All it proves is the ubiquity of religion.  There may be no examples of successful, atheistic, primitive tribes, but are there any examples of tribes that failed because of their lack of religion?

I am saying without religion in the primitive tribes would never have become more then a few members. cowmen belief is something that allows large groups of people to work towards a common goal regardless of problems. There are other things that can do this but most of them would not work with a primitive tribe.

And to Raist Totalitarian governments have less to fear from science. Religions can be proven to have parts of it be wrong. if people start to doubt one part of the religion they may start to doubt the rest of the religion. Totalitarian governments don't necessarily slow down research. Russians science program was pretty good during the cold war.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 07:30:34 PM by optimisticcynic »
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Wendy

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2009, 07:30:11 PM »
There is no definitive overall good or bad when discussing matters like this. It's like asking "weapons - good or bad" or "government - good or bad".
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2009, 07:32:58 PM »
ok lets go with good being a country that functions well has people being overall happy and a low morality rate.
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Raist

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2009, 07:35:33 PM »
Morality is not caused by religion and is overall a good thing. (as far as people's happiness is concerned it is spawned by empathy)

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Wendy

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Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2009, 08:01:34 PM »
I think he meant mortality.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

Re: religeon good or bad
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2009, 08:02:48 PM »
Yes I did. sorry.
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