Will time still be relative if...

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Ocius

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Will time still be relative if...
« on: March 15, 2009, 11:04:09 PM »
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« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 09:44:14 PM by Andrew »

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Raist

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2009, 11:15:54 PM »
Yes.......

Will pancakes still be yummy if we invent a way to transport syrup quicker?

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Jack

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2009, 11:39:54 PM »
...we discover a way to teleport matter any distance we wish, instantly?
How does teleporting matter have anything to do with time being relative?

Also, physicists have succeeded in teleporting individual small particles in small distances. It will take at least a hundred years before physicists manage to teleport every single atom of a human from point A to point B, regardless of distances. In the physics of teleportation, as described in Physics of the Impossible, a particle teleports to its new destination and its original copy is destroyed; in other words, a new copy of the particle is reproduced at point B after its original copy is removed. If the original copy is not destroyed, two possible scenarios will happen: either the particle is overly-stretched, or there are two separately identical particle.

There is a philosophical question. If we have technology able to teleport humans, is the "soul" (no, not those paranormal things, more like personality or "essence" according to Socrates) of the new body the same as the soul from the originally destroyed body? Am I still the same Jack from the original copy?


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Raist

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2009, 12:03:01 AM »
Again that has nothing to do with time being relative. Time being relative means it can go at different rates for different observers.

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Raist

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 01:58:54 AM »
Again that has nothing to do with time being relative. Time being relative means it can go at different rates for different observers.

Doesn't that require being able to travel at the speed of light?

No. It requires that you can somehow move from one position to another, it doesn't require you to move through any positions in between if done in certain ways. Also time would still be relative even if you were traveling faster than the speed of light, though you may be traveling backwards in time, (that would certainly make it relative)

Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 10:24:08 AM »
I do not believe that we can teleport a particle, we can 'teleport' quantum numbers. Even this is a bit of a lie as its not really teleportation its just a variation on entanglement.

Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 12:12:58 PM »
I wasn't saying it won't be possible. All I was saying is that what is often called teleportation in the popular press is not what Star Trek means by teleportation.

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Raist

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 01:54:19 PM »
I wasn't saying it won't be possible. All I was saying is that what is often called teleportation in the popular press is not what Star Trek means by teleportation.

Star Trek is not God. It does not predict the future of scientific advances either.

Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2009, 04:46:02 PM »
No i'm aware of that. But im also very aware that when people think of teleportation they think of one object being taken from one place and moved to another. The techniques experimented with so far are more like photocopies. Although both these descriptions are massive overstatements. What we do now it just pass on quantum numbers by entanglement, I don't see how it could be applied to any macroscopic (or microscopic) object anytime soon. Im sure something will come along one day but i'd be quite surprised if it comes out of what we are playing with now.

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Raist

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2009, 04:49:24 PM »
No i'm aware of that. But im also very aware that when people think of teleportation they think of one object being taken from one place and moved to another. The techniques experimented with so far are more like photocopies. Although both these descriptions are massive overstatements. What we do now it just pass on quantum numbers by entanglement, I don't see how it could be applied to any macroscopic (or microscopic) object anytime soon. Im sure something will come along one day but i'd be quite surprised if it comes out of what we are playing with now.

Yes I know about both theories. The only reasonable one is not the one that is similar to a photocopy, thanks to the uncertainly principle that says we can never know the location and velocity of an electron. It'd be kind of inconvenient to assemble someone only to have them spontaneously dissolve as all their chemical bonds disappear.

The current ideas on it have to do with either warping spacetime to move faster, or wormholes.

Still the teleporter would not make time not relative. Time IS relative. that is pretty much a done statement. Perhaps the question needs rethought.

Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2009, 05:07:58 PM »
Fair enough 'quantum teleportation' is the only one I have any kind of formal education in. If you have any information about that whole worm hole teleportation you were talking about I would be very interested in reading. I've on really looked at Einstein-Rosen bridges and things which a obviously a form of transportation, theoretically highly controversial at that.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2009, 05:29:04 PM »
The real question is: would we want to be teleported if it meant being vaporised and rebuilt? Plus how would we stop people cloning us from our stored teleporter signal?

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Raist

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2009, 05:34:28 PM »
That's what I'd have done. I'd just have a copy of me made without destroying me. And have the copy sent there. Then I'd force the copy to support me.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2009, 05:42:18 PM »
But what if Raist II and the rest of your clones revolt against Raist Alpha?

Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2009, 05:49:20 PM »
Ah Michio Kaku, I like his writing and I have a couple of his books , very good at explaining exotic phenomena to a general audience. I do feel he suffers a bit from what I sometimes call theorists optimism. By this I mean if something is theoretically possible its probably trivial if you can find a sober engineer, a length of string and an old washing up bottle. You are right in that quantum teleportation is based around entangled particles currently photons mostly, I believe it has been done with electron spin. The world record for keeping a coherent entangled state maybe 100 miles though I doubt individual photons have been measured over that distance though its possible I guess. I suspect quantum cryptography experiments probably hold the record for entanglement distances. Though the problem of coherence is just one of the numerous that have to be overcome before a single elementary particle can be completely copied.

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Raist

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2009, 06:19:53 PM »
But what if Raist II and the rest of your clones revolt against Raist Alpha?

Why would they do that. I created them. I'd treat them well too. When they asked why they had to do work I'd remind them they wouldn't exist without me. My natural guilt would send my clones back to their jobs.

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midgard

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2009, 06:14:04 AM »
But what if Raist II and the rest of your clones revolt against Raist Alpha?

Why would they do that. I created them. I'd treat them well too. When they asked why they had to do work I'd remind them they wouldn't exist without me. My natural guilt would send my clones back to their jobs.

Natural guilt? Where is your natural guilt for living off the work done by your clones?

If your clones are like you I'd say they'd be more interested in making their own clones of themselves and trying to convince the clone clones to do work for them (who in turn would only be interested in making clones in an attempt to get rich quick).

How much money are you giving to your parents and grandparents?

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Raist

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2009, 06:46:11 AM »
But what if Raist II and the rest of your clones revolt against Raist Alpha?

Why would they do that. I created them. I'd treat them well too. When they asked why they had to do work I'd remind them they wouldn't exist without me. My natural guilt would send my clones back to their jobs.

Natural guilt? Where is your natural guilt for living off the work done by your clones?

If your clones are like you I'd say they'd be more interested in making their own clones of themselves and trying to convince the clone clones to do work for them (who in turn would only be interested in making clones in an attempt to get rich quick).

How much money are you giving to your parents and grandparents?

Actually my parents can guilt me into pretty much anything. Hence the natural guilt. I feel no guilt towards the clones because I made them. I never said I wanted to get rich either. I just want to live my life. Drive across America.

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cmdshft

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2009, 08:31:51 AM »
One of the reasons that no one mentioned as to why relativity has no effect on the instantaneous teleportation stuff is because relativity is based on both mass and gravity.

When you accelerate a mass, that mass becomes more "massive" (heavier). It requires more and more energy to keep accelerating towards the speed of light, therefore taking long and longer. Clocks on a ship will slow down because increase in mass is directly relates to the increase of gravity and has the same effect on space-time as a gravity well does (e.g. a star, planet, etc). Teleportation requires no acceleration at all, therefore no mass gain and no gravitic increase to affect space-time and invoke the laws of relativity.

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Parsifal

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2009, 08:33:15 AM »
When you accelerate a mass, that mass becomes more "massive" (heavier).

So if you accelerate a mass moving at 0.99c in the opposite direction to that in which it is moving, it will become more massive?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Raist

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2009, 08:34:18 AM »
Relative to another object going .99 c in the same direction? Yes.

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Parsifal

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2009, 08:36:45 AM »
Relative to another object going .99 c in the same direction? Yes.

Relative to the frame of reference assumed in the question.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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cmdshft

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2009, 08:38:30 AM »
When you accelerate a mass, that mass becomes more "massive" (heavier).

So if you accelerate a mass moving at 0.99c in the opposite direction to that in which it is moving, it will become more massive?

You're question is vague. Is the mass already moving at 0.99c and then apply negative acceleration or are you applying negative acceleration to the mass in the opposite direction to accelerate to 0.99c again?

If it's the first, then I would suspect that applying 0.99c would lower it's mass quite significantly, possibly near the equivalent of light (light quanta still have mass). If it's the second, then you would be effectively lowering it's mass and then increasing it again due to the change in velocity.

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Parsifal

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2009, 08:41:13 AM »
You're question is vague. Is the mass already moving at 0.99c and then apply negative acceleration or are you applying negative acceleration to the mass in the opposite direction to accelerate to 0.99c again?

If it's the first, then I would suspect that applying 0.99c would lower it's mass quite significantly, possibly near the equivalent of light (light quanta still have mass). If it's the second, then you would be effectively lowering it's mass and then increasing it again due to the change in velocity.

I see my trolling is lost on you. I will make sure to troll harder next time.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2009, 05:53:04 PM »
But what if Raist II and the rest of your clones revolt against Raist Alpha?

Why would they do that. I created them. I'd treat them well too. When they asked why they had to do work I'd remind them they wouldn't exist without me. My natural guilt would send my clones back to their jobs.

Your natural tyranny would also cause them to rise up against their oppressor. Damn!

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Raist

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Re: Will time still be relative if...
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2009, 08:16:26 PM »
But what if Raist II and the rest of your clones revolt against Raist Alpha?

Why would they do that. I created them. I'd treat them well too. When they asked why they had to do work I'd remind them they wouldn't exist without me. My natural guilt would send my clones back to their jobs.

Your natural tyranny would also cause them to rise up against their oppressor. Damn!

In what way is that tyrannical? Asking the people I made to support me? That's at the same level as those "tyrannical" old folks at the retirement home. ::)