A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« on: March 15, 2009, 09:13:50 AM »
So my idea is kind of out there and I don't really believe it to be true but I thought it was thought-provoking.

So atoms are extremely small. Electrons travel around the nucleus. It is kind of like a solar system except at an extremely small level. Planets have numerous atoms [understatement]. They travel around the Sun. Look at an even larger picture and our solar system is a part of many that form a galaxy. The stars travel around the galaxy like an electron to an atomic nucleus or a planet to a star. If we look at an even bigger scope of things, is the universe just another small part of a larger picture? What if universes revolve around something even larger, and that body created a sort of solar system except with unverses comprising its "planets". Is it possible this increasingly vast scale of orders could go on forever? So that maybe life in a much larger scale would view our universe as an atom. Or our own atoms were the "universes" of a much smaller orde.? Just throwing this out there, tell me what you think.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Mykael

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2009, 03:00:14 PM »
At least we can be sure that one thing is infinitely small.
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=27691.0

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2009, 04:20:36 PM »
So my idea is kind of out there and I don't really believe it to be true but I thought it was thought-provoking.

So atoms are extremely small. Electrons travel around the nucleus. It is kind of like a solar system except at an extremely small level. Planets have numerous atoms [understatement]. They travel around the Sun. Look at an even larger picture and our solar system is a part of many that form a galaxy. The stars travel around the galaxy like an electron to an atomic nucleus or a planet to a star. If we look at an even bigger scope of things, is the universe just another small part of a larger picture? What if universes revolve around something even larger, and that body created a sort of solar system except with unverses comprising its "planets". Is it possible this increasingly vast scale of orders could go on forever? So that maybe life in a much larger scale would view our universe as an atom. Or our own atoms were the "universes" of a much smaller orde.? Just throwing this out there, tell me what you think.

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Raist

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2009, 05:22:33 PM »
So my idea is kind of out there and I don't really believe it to be true but I thought it was thought-provoking.

So atoms are extremely small. Electrons travel around the nucleus. It is kind of like a solar system except at an extremely small level. Planets have numerous atoms [understatement]. They travel around the Sun. Look at an even larger picture and our solar system is a part of many that form a galaxy. The stars travel around the galaxy like an electron to an atomic nucleus or a planet to a star. If we look at an even bigger scope of things, is the universe just another small part of a larger picture? What if universes revolve around something even larger, and that body created a sort of solar system except with unverses comprising its "planets". Is it possible this increasingly vast scale of orders could go on forever? So that maybe life in a much larger scale would view our universe as an atom. Or our own atoms were the "universes" of a much smaller orde.? Just throwing this out there, tell me what you think.

Electrons don't orbit. They kind of randomly exist in tiny patches near the nucleus. Also, I'd hate to live on something that doesn't have a known location and velocity. It would suck.

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cmdshft

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2009, 08:04:45 PM »
The smallest length in space-time is plank length. Wonderful stuff is said to occur in quantum mechanics at this length.

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midgard

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 02:17:33 AM »
Electrons travel around the nucleus. It is kind of like a solar system except at an extremely small level.

Lies to children.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 01:24:37 PM »
Lies to children.
Gotta love oversimplification.

I recall an 'experiment' in elementary school where the teacher put ice in a glass of water and hid it behind folders standing upright. The students had to predict what would happen.

About 90% of the class thought that when the ice melted, the glass would overflow. Maybe 2 or 3 other kids wrote predictions that the water level would stay the same. I put that the water level would decrease because ice takes up more space than water.

My paper was marked down, because it wasn't the answer she was looking for. Bitch.
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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 03:05:42 PM »
I realize they don't orbit. I was just looking to try and connect them with larger scales of order
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Raist

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2009, 03:21:21 PM »
I realize they don't orbit. I was just looking to try and connect them with larger scales of order

Behavior changes as you get extremely large or extremely small. Size is not relative.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2009, 03:46:36 PM »
well i mean they still travel about the nucleus even if not as "orderly" (in our perception) as planets and such in respect to the sun. Sorry I'm still not explaining what I mean well.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Raist

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2009, 04:34:57 PM »
well i mean they still travel about the nucleus even if not as "orderly" (in our perception) as planets and such in respect to the sun. Sorry I'm still not explaining what I mean well.

No they don't. In fact they aren't even particles as you understand. They simply have high odds of being in a certain area near the nucleus. The in no way circle it, and in fact are just as likely to be half way across the earth as making a circuit around the nucleus.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2009, 04:39:36 PM »
Sorry I'm lacking in my chem. They have an equal chance of being across the earth than being somewhere near the nucleus? I'm confused.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Raist

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2009, 04:41:05 PM »
Sorry I'm lacking in my chem. They have an equal chance of being across the earth than being somewhere near the nucleus? I'm confused.

Electrons have orbitals, little areas near the nucleus where they are most likely to be. Outside of these orbitals the odds of them existing there are much much much lower. An electron going in a circle around the nucleus would be a very odd occurrence, and certainly not the norm.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2009, 04:45:50 PM »
well i mean they still travel about the nucleus even if not as "orderly" (in our perception) as planets and such in respect to the sun. Sorry I'm still not explaining what I mean well.
srry-I should have put near instead of about. I didn't mean to imply they're going around in circles.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Raist

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2009, 04:50:21 PM »
well i mean they still travel about the nucleus even if not as "orderly" (in our perception) as planets and such in respect to the sun. Sorry I'm still not explaining what I mean well.
srry-I should have put near instead of about. I didn't mean to imply they're going around in circles.

Oh ok, but an electron is substantially different from a planet.

Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2009, 05:11:39 PM »
Ok your point about spheres in nature is not without a point. Classical fields (electromagnetism and gravitation) do strongly favor spherical objects. A detailed analysis with the quantum physics of the atom brings one to Bessel functions so only the lowest electron wavefunctions are totally spherically symmetric. In short yes nature does like spheres, in practice particularly at the small scale this is very much an approximation.

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cmdshft

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2009, 08:38:29 PM »
Sorry I'm lacking in my chem. They have an equal chance of being across the earth than being somewhere near the nucleus? I'm confused.

Electrons have orbitals, little areas near the nucleus where they are most likely to be. Outside of these orbitals the odds of them existing there are much much much lower. An electron going in a circle around the nucleus would be a very odd occurrence, and certainly not the norm.

Actually, you can't know if the electron is or is not doing such an action, as to know this you need to know the velocity AND location of the electron at all times, which is impossible.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 08:58:14 PM by Hara Taiki »

Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2009, 08:44:06 PM »
Sorry I'm lacking in my chem. They have an equal chance of being across the earth than being somewhere near the nucleus? I'm confused.

Electrons have orbitals, little areas near the nucleus where they are most likely to be. Outside of these orbitals the odds of them existing there are much much much lower. An electron going in a circle around the nucleus would be a very odd occurrence, and certainly not the norm.

Actually, you can't know if they electron is or is not doing such an action, as to know this you need to know the velocity AND location of the electron at all times, which is impossible.
True but that just because you don't know when it happens doesn't mean it is likely to happen.
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cmdshft

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2009, 08:59:19 PM »
Sorry I'm lacking in my chem. They have an equal chance of being across the earth than being somewhere near the nucleus? I'm confused.

Electrons have orbitals, little areas near the nucleus where they are most likely to be. Outside of these orbitals the odds of them existing there are much much much lower. An electron going in a circle around the nucleus would be a very odd occurrence, and certainly not the norm.

Actually, you can't know if they electron is or is not doing such an action, as to know this you need to know the velocity AND location of the electron at all times, which is impossible.
True but that just because you don't know when it happens doesn't mean it is likely to happen.

Please research the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2009, 09:09:51 PM »
The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle says we can not know when this happens, it does not mean that it won't happen or how likely it is to happen. Please read my post and educate yourself on what you are talking about.
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cmdshft

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2009, 10:39:45 PM »
The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle says we can not know when this happens, it does not mean that it won't happen or how likely it is to happen. Please read my post and educate yourself on what you are talking about.

Wrong. It says we cannot know both the velocity and location at the same moment, only one or the other. Had you actually understood the principle, you would have known this. Thus, we cannot know what shape an electrons orbit will be. It may not ever even be an orbit at all.

But please, go on. Your knowledge on physics and chemistry is astounding, just like your amazing insight into the tachyon thread. ::)
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 10:41:18 PM by Hara Taiki »

Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2009, 10:59:14 PM »
The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle says we can not know when this happens, it does not mean that it won't happen or how likely it is to happen. Please read my post and educate yourself on what you are talking about.

Wrong. It says we cannot know both the velocity and location at the same moment, only one or the other. Had you actually understood the principle, you would have known this. Thus, we cannot know what shape an electrons orbit will be. It may not ever even be an orbit at all.

But please, go on. Your knowledge on physics and chemistry is astounding, just like your amazing insight into the tachyon thread. ::)
It seems to me that he does understand the principle.  He never said that we can know both, I don't see how his statement was wrong.  You can still predict where electrons are most likely to be.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one" - Albert Einstein

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cmdshft

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2009, 11:07:18 PM »
That's not the point. The statement of having a circular orbit (and even at that, an orbit at all) was made in the factual sense, which is a natural fallacy. You can predict either the velocity or the location, but never know both.

Based on that, you cannot truly know if the electron is in a circular orbit or an orbit at all. You can only predict it. That's the point I was trying to make. Yet again, another misunderstanding of obvious things (similar, again, to the black hole analogy I made in another thread).

I really wish people would do at least a bit of review before trying to engage in these things.

Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2009, 11:13:47 PM »
Optimistcynic never said anything about knowing both velocity and location or about electrons having an orbit.  You accused him of being wrong.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle says we can not know when this happens, it does not mean that it won't happen or how likely it is to happen. Please read my post and educate yourself on what you are talking about.
How does any of this contradict what you have said?

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one" - Albert Einstein

Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2009, 04:46:16 AM »
Can I buy some pot from you?
Damn, beat me to it!  ;D

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cmdshft

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2009, 05:27:55 AM »
Optimistcynic never said anything about knowing both velocity and location or about electrons having an orbit.  You accused him of being wrong.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle says we can not know when this happens, it does not mean that it won't happen or how likely it is to happen. Please read my post and educate yourself on what you are talking about.
How does any of this contradict what you have said?


I never said that he made the statement. Please read the thread, and follow the quoting.

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Nomad

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2009, 08:54:42 AM »
So my idea is kind of out there and I don't really believe it to be true but I thought it was thought-provoking.

So atoms are extremely small. Electrons travel around the nucleus. It is kind of like a solar system except at an extremely small level. Planets have numerous atoms [understatement]. They travel around the Sun. Look at an even larger picture and our solar system is a part of many that form a galaxy. The stars travel around the galaxy like an electron to an atomic nucleus or a planet to a star. If we look at an even bigger scope of things, is the universe just another small part of a larger picture? What if universes revolve around something even larger, and that body created a sort of solar system except with unverses comprising its "planets". Is it possible this increasingly vast scale of orders could go on forever? So that maybe life in a much larger scale would view our universe as an atom. Or our own atoms were the "universes" of a much smaller orde.? Just throwing this out there, tell me what you think.

I once read one of those Choose Your Own Adventure books where you could shrink to a size smaller than an atom and eventually found yourself back on earth.  It was a spiritual time in my life.
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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2009, 09:12:25 AM »
Listen to what I posted. I never said I would know if they were going in a circular orbit. I agreed with someone who said the odds of it going in a perfectly circular orbit are low. However we would never know if it did go in a circular orbit because of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. That does not mean it doesn't happen. We were arguing about whether this happens not whether we can see it happen or even tell if it happens.

Second of all your argument on the tachyon thread was wrong. I had the same argument with Jack on "If tomorrow was the end thread". stuff does not stop at the edge of the event horizon. it appears to stop. That is caused by relativity's affect on the light not its affect on the object falling into it.
You can't outrun death forever
But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2009, 09:55:09 AM »
Ok just to clarify the Heisenberg uncertainty principle says that if two quantum operators do not commute than both quantities can not be known to arbitrary accuracy. The commutator can be used to determine the uncertainty between two operators, although this number has a habit of being hbar/2 sometimes multiplied by something, It should also be noted that this is not an expression of the experimental precision that can be achieved, it is a theoretical statement about the 'preparation of states'.

A police office pulls over Heisenberg on day;
Officer: DO you know how fast you were travelling?
Hesenberg: No, but I know exactly where I am.

Fantastic stuff.

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Raist

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Re: A random idea I had about things. Infinitely small?
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2009, 11:31:02 AM »
The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle says we can not know when this happens, it does not mean that it won't happen or how likely it is to happen. Please read my post and educate yourself on what you are talking about.

Wrong. It says we cannot know both the velocity and location at the same moment, only one or the other. Had you actually understood the principle, you would have known this. Thus, we cannot know what shape an electrons orbit will be. It may not ever even be an orbit at all.

But please, go on. Your knowledge on physics and chemistry is astounding, just like your amazing insight into the tachyon thread. ::)

Hara, orbitals are not orbits. Orbitals are simply areas that are most likely to contain an electron at any given time, and they are known.