Evolution didn't happen

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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1080 on: November 10, 2009, 09:55:36 PM »
In 1990 biologist Mary Schweitzer discovered soft tissue-including blood vessels and even whole cells when it was necessary to break a supposedly 65 million-year-old tyrannosaurus rex huge thigh bone that was found in Montana's Hell Creek Formation. Schweitzer said that the vessels were flexible and some could even be squeezed. After extensive testing, there was confirmation that this T. rex bone even had hemoglobin (red blood cells). This was surprising because the blood should have completely disintegrated if the bones were really 65 million years old.

a) I don't believe this happened

b) prove it should have disintegrated

c) that is not disproof of evolution, but perhaps proof of a t-rex that was around a few hundred years ago

You really need to stay on topic warrdog and stop bringing up retarded unrelated shit.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1081 on: November 10, 2009, 09:55:43 PM »
Actually no, that is really true.  That is how they were actually able to determine that the T-Rex's closest living ancestor is the chicken.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1083 on: November 10, 2009, 09:57:57 PM »
Actually no, that is really true.  That is how they were actually able to determine that the T-Rex's closest living ancestor is the chicken.

Read part b.

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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1084 on: November 10, 2009, 10:00:01 PM »
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur.html

Has nothing to do with the process of accumulating mutations or their effects on phenotypes so not evolution.


Riddle me this, why is the proof checking mechanism in our DNA polymerase less effective than it could be? Scientists have proven that with only a few mutations it can become much more accurate eliminating errors from 1/10,000,000 to 1/ 10's of billions.

This obviously means that god designed us fucking retarded, or perhaps the ability to mutate is beneficial because it allows us to adapt to our environment.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1085 on: November 10, 2009, 10:03:08 PM »
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur.html

Yep, we actually have soft tissue and partial DNA of a T-REX.

http://www.youtube.com/user/djarm67#g/c/7848E22F140FE7DF

This was a show on Animal planet unveiling the discovery.  It was shown recently, but actually this has been known for many years.

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Pete

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1086 on: November 10, 2009, 10:03:25 PM »
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur.html

From. Your. Own. Article.


Quote
Meanwhile, Schweitzer?s research has been hijacked by ?young earth? creationists, who insist that dinosaur soft tissue couldn?t possibly survive millions of years. They claim her discoveries support their belief, based on their interpretation of Genesis, that the earth is only a few thousand years old. Of course, it?s not unusual for a paleontologist to differ with creationists. But when creationists misrepresent Schweitzer?s data, she takes it personally: she describes herself as ?a complete and total Christian.? On a shelf in her office is a plaque bearing an Old Testament verse: ?For I know the plans I have for you,? declares the Lord, ?plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."


Wow. You fail.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1087 on: November 10, 2009, 10:07:16 PM »
Actually no, that is really true.  That is how they were actually able to determine that the T-Rex's closest living ancestor is the chicken.

Read part b.

I am not contesting part B, all I am saying is that we really have found T-Rex DNA, many years ago.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1088 on: November 10, 2009, 10:32:25 PM »
or perhaps the ability to mutate is beneficial because it allows us to adapt to our environment.

This.


That doesn't mean we evolve to a new species.

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Pete

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1089 on: November 10, 2009, 10:33:10 PM »
or perhaps the ability to mutate is beneficial because it allows us to adapt to our environment.

This.


That doesn't mean we evolve to a new species.

You are confusing Evolution with speciation. Again. Thats alright though, we're used to it from Creationists. They seem to think its a pretty good straw man.

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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1090 on: November 10, 2009, 10:43:30 PM »
or perhaps the ability to mutate is beneficial because it allows us to adapt to our environment.

This.


That doesn't mean we evolve to a new species.

No, it does not. It does mean though that our genes are changing. The only thing separating us from other species is our genes. I'd say it is a fairly small jump in logic to assume we do eventually produce a new "species" an artificial category we designate to different types of organisms.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1091 on: November 10, 2009, 10:46:42 PM »
I'd say it is a fairly small jump in logic to assume we do eventually produce a new "species" an artificial category we designate to different types of organisms.

Would you call it a leap in faith?

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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1092 on: November 10, 2009, 10:58:20 PM »
I'd say it is a fairly small jump in logic to assume we do eventually produce a new "species" an artificial category we designate to different types of organisms.

Would you call it a leap in faith?

No, I wouldn't. It's following a pattern. If you some pennies in your pocket each day and put them in a jar, is it a leap of faith to assume you'd eventually have a dollar in the jar? Or would it be following basic logic?

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Pete

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1093 on: November 10, 2009, 11:04:24 PM »
I'd say it is a fairly small jump in logic to assume we do eventually produce a new "species" an artificial category we designate to different types of organisms.

Would you call it a leap in faith?

No, I wouldn't. It's following a pattern. If you some pennies in your pocket each day and put them in a jar, is it a leap of faith to assume you'd eventually have a dollar in the jar? Or would it be following basic logic?

No, because God will magically intervene. When you go to count the pennies and find a whole dollar, its because God used magic to poof it into existence.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1094 on: November 10, 2009, 11:06:33 PM »
Or would it be following basic logic?

No, that would be basic math.  A totally different proof than scientific proof.  You know that Raist.  I'm dissapointed.

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Masterchef

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1095 on: November 10, 2009, 11:07:05 PM »
So Wardogg, do you believe that the genes involved in reproduction are somehow immune to mutation?

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1096 on: November 10, 2009, 11:10:57 PM »
So Wardogg, do you believe that the genes involved in reproduction are somehow immune to mutation?

Uhhh no, and I think Ive stated as much.  I'm not sure where you are going with this but mutation/adaptation does not prove evolution.  Also this is no where near my area of expertise so basically anything I have on this is copypasta.

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Pete

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1097 on: November 10, 2009, 11:20:14 PM »
So Wardogg, do you believe that the genes involved in reproduction are somehow immune to mutation?

Uhhh no, and I think Ive stated as much.  I'm not sure where you are going with this but mutation/adaptation does not prove evolution.  Also this is no where near my area of expertise so basically anything I have on this is copypasta.

Yes, the do, because mutation is the very mechanism of evolution. Evolution is the development of different phenotypes through mutations and genetic drift. Something that is easily verifiable, and has been verified in repeated studies.

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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1098 on: November 10, 2009, 11:24:17 PM »
So Wardogg, do you believe that the genes involved in reproduction are somehow immune to mutation?

Uhhh no, and I think Ive stated as much.  I'm not sure where you are going with this but mutation/adaptation does not prove evolution.  Also this is no where near my area of expertise so basically anything I have on this is copypasta.

mutation adaptation IS evolution. Perhaps if you weren't copy pasta'ing from people too dumb to actually get into the field they write about you would realize this.

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Masterchef

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1099 on: November 10, 2009, 11:50:36 PM »
Uhhh no, and I think Ive stated as much.  I'm not sure where you are going with this but mutation/adaptation does not prove evolution.  Also this is no where near my area of expertise so basically anything I have on this is copypasta.
So you understand that absolutely everything about a creature is written in their genes?
And you also accept that all of those genes are vulnerable to mutation when they are replicated?

So what exactly is your problem with Evolution again?

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1100 on: November 10, 2009, 11:55:06 PM »
Mutations do not produce new species.

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Pete

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1101 on: November 11, 2009, 12:29:12 AM »
Mutations do not produce new species.


Yes, they do. Mutations produce a phenotypic change, so eventually, they will reach the point where the result is unrecognizable from your starting point.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1102 on: November 11, 2009, 12:30:20 AM »
Mutations do not produce new species.


Yes, they do. Mutations produce a phenotypic change, so eventually, they will reach the point where the result is unrecognizable from your starting point.

Proof?

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Pete

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1103 on: November 11, 2009, 01:11:02 AM »
Mutations do not produce new species.


Yes, they do. Mutations produce a phenotypic change, so eventually, they will reach the point where the result is unrecognizable from your starting point.

Proof?

Ok. Do you really think I can't come up with any? Just curious. If you do, your sadly out of touch with reality.


http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/content/abstract/169/2/R1

"The Booroola (FecB) phenotype is associated with a mutation in the bone morphogenetic receptor type 1 B (BMPR1B) gene" CJ Souza et al, Journal of Endocrinology, Vol 169, Issue 2, R1-R6


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WSS-4D5VRMH-M&_user=4293052&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000062711&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=4293052&md5=f826659bffa50cb5423d53f0df441dfb

"Mutations affecting growth cone guidance in drosophila: Genes necessary for guidance toward or away from the midline" Mark Seegar et al, Neuron, Volume 10, Issue 3, March 1993, Pages 409-426


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v180/n4581/abs/180326a0.html

"Gene Mutations in Human H?moglobin: the Chemical Difference Between Normal and Sickle Cell H?moglobin" V. M. Ingram, Nature 180, 326 - 328 (17 August 1957); doi:10.1038/180326a0



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Pete

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1104 on: November 11, 2009, 01:13:09 AM »
Mutations do not produce new species.


Yes, they do. Mutations produce a phenotypic change, so eventually, they will reach the point where the result is unrecognizable from your starting point.

Proof?


Oh. And I forgot to mention common sense and logic. You have yet to prove the existence of any magical force that would restrict the mutations. Burden of Proof is on you since you are the one making the non-parsimonious argument.... Have fun looking for research that proves the existence of God, and that proves he directly intervenes to restrict mutations.  ;)

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1105 on: November 11, 2009, 01:27:17 AM »
Great job at failing.  None of that showed proof of a mutation creating a NEW species. 

You showed me that mutations can and do occur.  Wonderful.


Oh. And I forgot to mention common sense and logic. You have yet to prove the existence of any magical force that would restrict the mutations. Burden of Proof is on you since you are the one making the non-parsimonious argument.... Have fun looking for research that proves the existence of God, and that proves he directly intervenes to restrict mutations.  ;)


The point is...if you had PROOF we wouldn't be having this debate at all...now would we.

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Pete

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1106 on: November 11, 2009, 01:33:46 AM »
Great job at failing.  None of that showed proof of a mutation creating a NEW species.

Great job of failing. I don't have to. If mutations happen, and lead to phenotypic changes, eventually new species result. This is simple, parsimonious logic, based in the fossil record. Burden of proof is on you to show that this is an incorrect assumption. And besides, evolution isn't speciation. For the 5th time.   ::)


The point is...if you had PROOF we wouldn't be having this debate at all...now would we.

I've posted proof repeatedly. But your only response is to go: "Llalalalalalalalalalalalal! I'm not listening! Science doesn't count unless I say so! lalalalalalal not listening!!!!"

There's nothing I can do to stop you from sticking your head in the sand, besides pity you.

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Nord

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1107 on: November 11, 2009, 03:08:52 AM »
Great job at failing.  None of that showed proof of a mutation creating a NEW species. 

Of course he fails, he also believes skin is a genetic mutation as areeyes, yet provides no evidence for this claim (or any of his claims for that matter). He just spams this place up with links from athest websites. Very hypocritical of him to discredit the creationist links you provided since his logic is just filling this place up with atheist or evolutionist webpages.

So far i see this thread is 50 or so more pages. I only commented from a few pages back, however these evolutionists have failed to proves evolution for over 50 pages. what an embarrassment on their behalf.

Also, evolutionists will avoid the question of origins/abiogenesis since it was disproven by louis Pasteur.

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Nord

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1108 on: November 11, 2009, 03:23:19 AM »

THE ALTOGETHER MISSING EVIDENCE

No Evolution at Present.

The lack of a case for evolution is most clearly recognized by the fact that no one has ever seen it happen.

"Evolution, at least in the sense that Darwin speaks of it, cannot be detected within the lifetime of a single observer." 1

 A process which has never been observed to occur, in all human history, should not be called scientific.

No New Species

Charles Darwin is popularly supposed to have solved the problem of "the origin of species," in his famous 1859 book of that title.

However, as the eminent Harvard biologist, Ernst Mayr, one of the nation's top evolutionists, has observed:

"Darwin never really did discuss the origin of species in his On the Origin of Species."2

Not only could Darwin not cite a single example of a new species originating, but neither has anyone else, in all the subsequent century of evolutionary study.

"No one has ever produced a species by mechanisms of natural selection. No one has gotten near it. . . ." 3

No Known Mechanism of Evolution.
 
It is also a very curious fact that no one understands how evolution works. Evolutionists commonly protest that they know evolution is true, but they can't seem to determine its mechanism.

"Evolution is . . . troubled from within by the troubling complexities of genetic and developmental mechanisms and new questions about the central mystery--speciation itself." 4

One would think that in the 125 years following Darwin, with thousands of trained biologists studying the problem and using millions of dollars worth of complex lab equipment, they would have worked it out by now, but the mechanism which originates new species is still "the central mystery."

No Fossil Evidence.

It used to be claimed that the best evidence for evolution was the fossil record, but the fact is that the billions of known fossils have not yet yielded a single unequivocal transitional form with transitional structures in the process of evolving.

"The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphologic transition. . . ." 5

This ubiquitous absence of intermediate forms is true not only for "major morphologic transitions," but even for most species.

As even evolutionists admit (but with their imaginary millions of years):

"As is now well known, most fossil species appear instantaneously in the fossil record, persist for some millions of years virtually unchanged, only to disappear abruptly. . . ." 6

As a result, many modern evolutionists agree with the following assessment:

"In any case, no real evolutionist . . . uses the fossil record as evidence in favor of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation. . . ." 7

No Order in the Fossils.

Not only are there no true transitional forms in the fossils; there is not even any general evidence of evolutionary progression in the actual fossil sequences:

"The fossil record of evolution is amenable to a wide variety of models ranging from completely deterministic to completely stochastic." 8

"I regard the failure to find a clear "vector of progress" in life's history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record. . . . we have sought to impose a pattern that we hoped to find on a world that does not really display it." 9

The superficial appearance of an evolutionary pattern in the fossil record has actually been imposed on it by the fact that the rocks containing the fossils have themselves been "dated" by their fossils.

"And this poses something of a problem: If we date the rocks by their fossils, how can we then turn around and talk about patterns of evolutionary change through time in the fossil record?"10

"A circular argument arises: Interpret the fossil record in the terms of a particular theory of evolution, inspect the interpretation, and note that it confirms the theory. Well, it would, wouldn't it?" 11

No Evidence That Evolution Is Possible.
 
The basic reason why there is no scientific evidence of evolution in either the present or the past is that the law of increasing entropy, or the second law of thermodynamics, contradicts the very premise of evolution. The evolutionist assumes that the whole universe has evolved upward from a single primeval particle to human beings, but the second law (one of the best-proved laws of science) says that the whole universe is running down into complete disorder.

"How can the forces of biological development and the forces of physical degeneration be operating at cross purposes? It would take, of course, a far greater mind than mine even to attempt to penetrate this riddle. I can only pose the question. . . ." 12

Evolutionists commonly attempt to sidestep this question by asserting that the second law applies only to isolated systems. But this is wrong!

". . . the quantity of entropy generated locally cannot be negative irrespective of whether the system is isolated or not." 13

"Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems." 14

Entropy can be forced to decrease in an open system, if enough organizing energy and information is applied to it from outside the system. This externally introduced complexity would have to be adequate to overcome the normal internal increase in entropy when raw energy is added from outside. However, no such external source of organized and energized information is available to the supposed evolutionary process. Raw solar energy is not organized information!

No Evidence From Similarities.

The existence of similarities between organisms--whether in external morphology or internal biochemistry--is easily explained as the Creator's design of similar systems for similar functions, but such similarities are not explicable by common evolutionary descent.

"It is now clear that the pride with which it was assumed that the inheritance of homologous structures from a common ancestor explained homology was misplaced. 15

The really significant finding that comes to light from comparing the proteins' amino acid sequences is that it is impossible to arrange them in any sort of an evolutionary series." 16

No Recapitulation or Vestigial Organs.

The old arguments for evolution based on the recapitulation theory (the idea that embryonic development in the womb recapitulates the evolution of the species) and vestigial organs ("useless" organs believed to have been useful in an earlier stage of evolution) have long been discredited.

". . . the theory of recapitulation . . . should be defunct today." 17

"An analysis of the difficulties in unambiguously identifying functionless structures . . . leads to the conclusion that "vestigial organs" provide no evidence for evolutionary theory." 18

REFERENCES
1 David Kits, "Paleontology and Evolutionary Theory," Evolution (vol. 28; September 1974), p. 466.
2 In Mayr's book Systematics and the Origin of Species (1942), as cited by a prominent modern evolutionist, Niles Eldredge, in his book, Time Frames: The Rethinking of Darwinian Evolution and the Theory of Punctuated Equilibria (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1985), p. 33.
3 Colin Patterson, "Cladistics." Interview on BBC, March 4, 1982. Dr. Patterson is the senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History.
4 Keith S. Thompson, "The Meanings of Evolution," American Scientist (vol. 70, September/October 1982), p. 529.
5 Steven M. Stanley, Macroevolution: Pattern and Process (San Francisco: W.M. Freeman and Co., 1979), p. 39.
6 Tom Kemp, "A Fresh Look at the Fossil Record," New Scientist (Vol. 108; December 5, 1985), p. 67. Dr. Kemp is Curator of the University Museum at Oxford University.
7 Mark Ridley, "Who Doubts Evolution?" New Scientist (vol. 90; June 25, 1981), p. 831. Dr. Ridley is Professor of Zoology at Oxford University.
8 David M. Raup, "Probabilistic Models in Evolutionary Biology" American Scientist (vol. 166. January/February 1977), p. 57.
9 Stephen Jay Gould, "The Ediacaran Experiment," Natural History (vol. 93; February 1984), p. 23. Dr. Gould, Professor of Geology at Harvard, is arguably the nation's most prominent modern evolutionist.
10 Niles Eldredge, op. cit., p. 52.
11 Tom Kemp, op. cit., p. 66.
12 Sydney Harris, "Second Law of Thermodynamics." This nationally syndicated column appeared in the San Francisco Examiner on January 27, 1984.
13 Arnold Sommerfeld, Thermodynamics and Statistical Mechanics (New York: Academic Press, 1956), p. 155.
14 John Ross, Letter-to-the-Editor, Chemical and Engineering News (July 7, 1980), p. 40. Ross is at Harvard University.
15 Sir Gavin de Beer, Homology, an Unsolved Problem (London: Oxford University Press, 1971), p. 15. Sir Gavin is a leading European evolutionist.
16 Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (London: Burnett Books, 1985), p. 289. Denton is a research microbiologist in Australia.
17 Stephen Jay Gould, "Dr. Down's Syndrome," Natural History (April 1980), p. 144.
18 S.R. Scadding, "Do `Vestigial Organs' Provide Evidence for Evolution?" Evolutionary Theory (vol. 5, May 1981), p. 173.

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Crustinator

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1109 on: November 11, 2009, 03:54:26 AM »
Also this is no where near my area of expertise so basically anything I have on this is copypasta.

And that's a good thing because...?