Evolution didn't happen

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EnigmaZV

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #210 on: July 11, 2009, 08:29:23 AM »
I knew someone who had 2 of the 3 lobes of their right lung removed due to lung cancer.  They were plenty alive, they just couldn't engage in strenuous activities like walking up stairs.
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.

Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #211 on: July 11, 2009, 08:45:12 AM »
There is no reason to having more than one organ doing the same thing, therefor, if evolution didn't happen there would be redundancy.

So it's bad to have 2 kidneys?
funny you should mention 2 kidneys you dont need both of them...of all the organs you do not need both of them, even the lungs.


So than why do we have them?
(and you really cant live with only one lung)


Because it makes things easier, and you really can live with one lung.

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Villyer

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #212 on: July 11, 2009, 08:51:33 AM »
There is no reason to having more than one organ doing the same thing, therefor, if evolution didn't happen there would be redundancy.

So it's bad to have 2 kidneys?
funny you should mention 2 kidneys you dont need both of them...of all the organs you do not need both of them, even the lungs.


So than why do we have them?
(and you really cant live with only one lung)


Because it makes things easier, and you really can live with one lung.


You can only live with one lung if you never participate in any physical movement.
Like, say you only had one lung and you went for a jog, you would probably die from lack of oxygen in the grain, since oxygen cannot iffuse into your blood fast enough.


But ignoring lungs...

If evolution didnt happen, why did things evolve over the time humans were here?

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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #213 on: July 11, 2009, 05:58:53 PM »
There is no reason to having more than one organ doing the same thing, therefor, if evolution didn't happen there would be redundancy.

So it's bad to have 2 kidneys?
funny you should mention 2 kidneys you dont need both of them...of all the organs you do not need both of them, even the lungs.


So than why do we have them?
(and you really cant live with only one lung)


Because it makes things easier, and you really can live with one lung.

Having two testicles makes no difference. A lot of dual organs are unneeded. They do not make things any easier at all.

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Soze

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #214 on: July 11, 2009, 07:55:38 PM »
Having two testicles makes no difference. They do not make things any easier at all.
I do hope you aren't speaking from experience.

Also, try doing anything with only one finger.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 07:57:57 PM by Soze »

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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #215 on: July 11, 2009, 10:42:47 PM »
Having two testicles makes no difference. They do not make things any easier at all.
I do hope you aren't speaking from experience.

Also, try doing anything with only one finger.

Fingers are not a redundancy, each performs a separate task.

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ogeitla

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #216 on: July 11, 2009, 11:34:18 PM »
Raist, I've never seen someone argue that "Evolution didn't happen" and win a debate.

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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #217 on: July 11, 2009, 11:39:53 PM »
Raist, I've never seen someone argue that "Evolution didn't happen" and win a debate.

I know, if done right there really is no chance for an argument. If it gets to that stage the person is obviously an idiot and will lose.

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Pongo

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #218 on: July 12, 2009, 12:52:11 AM »
It's not that we deny the evidence for evolution, we just interpret it differently.  

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ogeitla

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #219 on: July 12, 2009, 12:57:28 AM »
It's not that we deny the evidence for evolution, we just interpret it differently.  

Can't argue with that. You should have Raist's mod position.

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Pongo

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #220 on: July 12, 2009, 01:03:22 AM »
It's not that we deny the evidence for evolution, we just interpret it differently.  

Can't argue with that. You should have Raist's mod position.

All of evolution is basically unarguable.  No one was there to observe it so it's simply not science.  Also, here is some insight for you...


The proper way to troll is to horrify them, but make them want to help you.

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ogeitla

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #221 on: July 12, 2009, 01:34:10 AM »

All of evolution is basically unarguable.  No one was there to observe it so it's simply not science.  Also, here is some insight for you...


I was agreeing with you. Though macroevolution has been observed, use google and lurk moar.

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Pongo

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #222 on: July 12, 2009, 01:40:28 AM »
Macro-evolution is not repeatable and therefore not science.  To qualify as science your experiments must be repeatable.  I think you meant to say that micro-evolution has been observed but supports no conclusive evidence that it can lead to macro-evolution. 

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ogeitla

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #223 on: July 12, 2009, 01:56:57 AM »
Sorry I meant microevolution, but that it leads to macroevolution. sadly the video has been votebotted by creationists, it was 5 stars last time i checked.

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Pongo

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #224 on: July 12, 2009, 02:10:54 AM »
All that video proves is that micro-evolution is hypothesized to lead to macro-evolution.  Spoiler: it dosen't.  Usually Raist has come in by now to back me up, he's better at this than I.

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Delthan

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #225 on: July 12, 2009, 03:31:36 AM »
All that video proves is that micro-evolution is hypothesized to lead to macro-evolution.  Spoiler: it dosen't.  Usually Raist has come in by now to back me up, he's better at this than I.

And you know this for sure?
Clothes are proof evolution never happened.

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ogeitla

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #226 on: July 12, 2009, 04:42:28 AM »
Pongo please tell me you are not a christian  :-\

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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #227 on: July 12, 2009, 09:39:21 AM »
Sorry I meant microevolution, but that it leads to macroevolution. sadly the video has been votebotted by creationists, it was 5 stars last time i checked.

No one cares about stars.

Here is macro evolution being observed, only idiots believe that there is no direct observation of speciation, in fact I'll put 20 bucks on the fact that you've never been formally educated in biology. You should really give up.

http://news.mongabay.com/2009/0315-hance_whiteyes.html

What I don't get is idiots that believe in evolution for no more reason than idiots that believe in creationism, neither one knows enough facts either way to actually form a belief, so they religiously follow one or the other.

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Jeffs

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #228 on: July 12, 2009, 10:31:28 AM »
This whole argument is the retarded spawn of a real scientific debate. The micro/macro evolutionary debate was based on the dispute over whether evolution happened in large macro mutations separated by large gaps in time or by small micro mutations which were more frequent. The argument on one side was that small micro mutations aren't sufficient in influencing natural selection due to the tiny advantages such small changes might make, the argument from the other was that macro mutations are rarer and due to the nature of large mutations they are unlikely to become an advantage to the mutated organism.

But to say that micro evolution is possible is to say that cells don't copy DNA perfectly, meaning that when a cell divides the chance of it being a perfect copy isn't 100%. To say there's a chance that a type writer might make a small error surely is also to say there's a possibility that the type writer might make a large error. Similarly it also makes sense to say macro evolution could take place, admittedly less often. So it really doesn't make sense to argue over which happens as if only one can, but it does make sense to argue which has the most influence.

To look at this arguement imagine a microscope being used to look at an object, let's say this microscope is completely out of focus and plays the role of our organism. The random turns in the focusing dial on the side of the microscope play as our macro and micro mutations. A turn in this dial can go either way and therefore can turn to make the focus worse or can turn to make it better, if the dial makes a turn which causes the focus to be clearer then it stays, otherwise it turns back and this force is representing natural selection. Let's first imagine a macro mutation in this dial, if the dial turns a large amount it will either go in the direction it wants to in order to make the focus clear or not. But because this is a macro mutation there's also a chance that if it goes in the right direction it will go too far, this means the chance of this mutation being an advantage is less easily predictable. However, looking at micro mutation, if the dial only turns a tiny amount then the chance of it over turning in the right direction is much less and it scales with how small the mutation is, when the turns get small enough the chance of this change being an advantage becomes almost exactly 50%. Imagine lots of these changes over a long period of time and it's easy to imagine that the microscope becomes perfectly focused with simply random mutations.

With that point made I hope you can see how both could participate in evolution, and no good biologist will tell you that only one of the two scales of mutation exist. The main point though is that as this debate between scientists continued there were various quotes in the debate which were stolen out of context by creationists who misunderstood the argument. The whole dispute over whether macro mutation is possible is a horrible consequence of die hard creationists and novice evolutionists who were unaware. If you see a quote by a respected scientist in any creationist propaganda you really do need to look it up properly.


I love you EiZ <3

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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #229 on: July 12, 2009, 12:26:52 PM »
Macroevolution when used in the context of this debate, meaning evolution at a scale large enough to cause speciation. It does not mean a single mutation of a large scale but multiple mutation leading up to a point that 2 groups that used to be a single species will no longer interbreed.

This has been observed in many situations. In fact, some London rats that had stowed away on the HMS Beagle found their way onto several islands. They have mutated to the point that they will no longer interbreed with London rats. Saying macroevolution is not proven is simply going along with creationist propaganda.

Your analogy is also very unfit. You are talking about rate of mutation interchangeably with number of mutations.

I may be mistaken, and I hope I am, you seemed to go both ways in this. To clear this up, evolution refers to species changing over time due to their genetics dealing with external forces, mutations are the change in the DNA due to mistakes during they copying process.

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Jeffs

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #230 on: July 12, 2009, 01:19:58 PM »
Macroevolution when used in the context of this debate, meaning evolution at a scale large enough to cause speciation. It does not mean a single mutation of a large scale but multiple mutation leading up to a point that 2 groups that used to be a single species will no longer interbreed.

This has been observed in many situations. In fact, some London rats that had stowed away on the HMS Beagle found their way onto several islands. They have mutated to the point that they will no longer interbreed with London rats. Saying macroevolution is not proven is simply going along with creationist propaganda.

Your analogy is also very unfit. You are talking about rate of mutation interchangeably with number of mutations.

I may be mistaken, and I hope I am, you seemed to go both ways in this. To clear this up, evolution refers to species changing over time due to their genetics dealing with external forces, mutations are the change in the DNA due to mistakes during they copying process.

Indeed my post was focused on mutation rather than evolution, I'm just pointing out where the creationist defences of macro evolution origionated, it's the creationists who have confused evolution with mutation somewhere along the line. The analogy was just a short example of some of the ideas and aspects involved in the arguements between macro and micro mutation, rate of mutation and number of mutations weren't taken into account intentionally. I only added it as simplified evidence that the debate did take place and it's an aspect of evolution which should be discussed by biologists, rather than just forcing you to take my word for it.

But back onto the actual debate. Both micro and macro evolution have evidence backing them, but even when ignoring the evidence it makes no sense to dispute macro evolution if you understand evolution at all.


I love you EiZ <3

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #231 on: July 12, 2009, 06:07:53 PM »
It's not that we deny the evidence for evolution, we just interpret it differently.  

It would certainly help creationist more if they could produce positive evidence for their theory, instead of disputing evidence of another.

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Soze

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #232 on: July 12, 2009, 07:53:21 PM »
Fingers are not a redundancy, each performs a separate task.
What does your right thumb do that your left thumb doesn't?

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Pongo

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #233 on: July 12, 2009, 08:48:33 PM »
Having two operating thumbs is a clear advantage to having just one.  Having two operating testicles is marginally better. 

Things my right thumb can do that my left can't:
Properly shake a hand.
Throttle a motorcycle.
Stimulate a clitoris while my index and middle fingers are in the vaginal canal and left thumb is in the anus.



Also, ummmmmm. Ok, here's a gem...
The eye, just like many organs, is irreducibly complex.  This is proof of a designer.

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Proleg

Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #234 on: July 12, 2009, 09:07:37 PM »
The eye, just like many organs, is irreducibly complex.
Precisely. Belief in evolution requires just as much faith.

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Parsifal

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #235 on: July 12, 2009, 09:11:07 PM »
Things my right thumb can do that my left can't:
Stimulate a clitoris while my index and middle fingers are in the vaginal canal and left thumb is in the anus.

And that is clearly an enormous reproductive advantage over having to use a penis.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Pongo

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #236 on: July 12, 2009, 10:02:21 PM »
It helps compensate for various problems including small penis size and premature ejaculation.  Also, the ambiguity of the anus' owner was intentionally left open.

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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #237 on: July 12, 2009, 10:46:24 PM »
Fingers are not a redundancy, each performs a separate task.
What does your right thumb do that your left thumb doesn't?

I was replying to try doing something with only one finger, not try doing anything with just one hand.

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Soze

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #238 on: July 12, 2009, 10:52:13 PM »
I was replying to try doing something with only one finger, not try doing anything with just one hand.
Okay... lift something heavy with one finger.
Also, a hand example is just effective as demonstrating my point. I cannot climb many trees with only one hand.

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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #239 on: July 12, 2009, 11:07:25 PM »
I was replying to try doing something with only one finger, not try doing anything with just one hand.
Okay... lift something heavy with one finger.
Also, a hand example is just effective as demonstrating my point. I cannot climb many trees with only one hand.

Therefore hands also have separate tasks. You are arguing this incorrectly.