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Evolution didn't happen

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Raist

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Evolution didn't happen
« on: March 12, 2009, 10:28:41 PM »
If evolution happened we would see much more redundancy in the animal kingdom. We would see many animals that shared most of their DNA and only had a few differences. On top of this we would see redundant systems in animals, perhaps several organs performing the same function. Humans have no such organs, even the appendix does the job of fighting off bacteria.

If humans evolved from primates wouldn't we see many different kind of monkeys instead of just apes?

Finally, fish do not crawl out of water, there is obviously no fish that can breath air, maybe a "lung fish."
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 10:35:19 PM by Raist »
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Proleg

Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2009, 10:34:53 PM »
Quote from: Raist on March 12, 2009, 10:28:41 PM
On top of this we would redundant systems in animals...
Would we really though?
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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2009, 10:36:23 PM »
Quote from: Proleg on March 12, 2009, 10:34:53 PM
Quote from: Raist on March 12, 2009, 10:28:41 PM
On top of this we would redundant systems in animals...
Would we really though?
Pointing out grammatical errors should be done in a serious way thank you.

And yes we would see redundant systems in animals. If both systems provided a needed benefit then there is no reason one would be lost.
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Pongo

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2009, 01:17:06 AM »
Are you being seriously?  There is all sorts of redundancy in the animal kingdom, how come every vertebrate animal has a rib cage (there might be rare exceptions to this, I can't think of one off hand).  Chimps have 97% the same DNA as we do.  We have two lungs and two kidneys both preforming the same tasks (and you can survive with only one of either AKA: redundant).  These facts are so blatantly obvious that I think you are posting this as a joke.  Look up perches and mudskippers, they crawl out of water all the time.

Quote
If humans evolved from primates wouldn't we see many different kind of monkeys instead of just apes?
I don't understand what you're saying here. 
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Mykael

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2009, 07:37:48 AM »
Quote from: Pongo on March 13, 2009, 01:17:06 AM
These facts are so blatantly obvious that I think you are posting this as a joke.
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optimisticcynic

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2009, 08:55:06 AM »
If one organ does the same job as another organ and does it better then it would be in the animals best interest to get rid of the under preforming organ. it would be a waste of energy to create it as the body develops since they have a different organ that does the task better.
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2009, 08:56:20 AM »
Clothes are proof evolution never happened.
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iznih

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2009, 09:23:15 AM »
Quote from: Raist on March 12, 2009, 10:28:41 PM
Finally, fish do not crawl out of water, there is obviously no fish that can breath air, maybe a "lung fish."

a fish that can breath air: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lungfish
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2009, 09:24:29 AM »
Got a wiki link for fish that wear clothes?  No, didn't think so.
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Moonlit

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2009, 09:45:43 AM »
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on March 13, 2009, 08:56:20 AM
Clothes are proof evolution never happened.
Please....explain....
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You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2009, 10:06:01 AM »
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 09:45:43 AM
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on March 13, 2009, 08:56:20 AM
Clothes are proof evolution never happened.
Please....explain....

Why were humans the only animal to evolve into clothing.
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Moonlit

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2009, 10:29:04 AM »
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on March 13, 2009, 10:06:01 AM
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 09:45:43 AM
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on March 13, 2009, 08:56:20 AM
Clothes are proof evolution never happened.
Please....explain....
Why were humans the only animal to evolve into clothing.
That's like asking why were humans the only ones to invent anything and that also being proof of evolution not occuring.
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on October 02, 2010, 01:44:40 PM
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?
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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2009, 11:58:57 AM »
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on March 13, 2009, 10:06:01 AM
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 09:45:43 AM
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on March 13, 2009, 08:56:20 AM
Clothes are proof evolution never happened.
Please....explain....

Why were humans the only animal to evolve into clothing.

Exactly, just because we have a brain devoted to using tools does not mean we would wear clothing. I mean even though the concept of a tool and clothing is basically the same, clothing IS NOT A TOOL!

Why don't reptiles wear sweaters? Who better to wear a turtle neck than a turtle? Also, if clothing was not an inherent trait made only for humans we would see an evolution of clothing, perhaps clothing would become more complex as we became more skilled at making it. You see NO evidence for this. Also, you would see things like chimps using leaves to shield themselves from the rain.

Finally all other intelligent animals live in warm climates, or aquatic ones. It would make no sense for them to have clothing in such environments. If they were meant to have clothing too they would obviously live in much colder climates.

Warrdog is finally starting to think unlike you sheeple.
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Moonlit

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2009, 12:15:29 PM »
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 11:58:57 AM
Exactly, just because we have a brain devoted to using tools does not mean we would wear clothing. I mean even though the concept of a tool and clothing is basically the same, clothing IS NOT A TOOL!

Why don't reptiles wear sweaters? Who better to wear a turtle neck than a turtle? Also, if clothing was not an inherent trait made only for humans we would see an evolution of clothing, perhaps clothing would become more complex as we became more skilled at making it. You see NO evidence for this. Also, you would see things like chimps using leaves to shield themselves from the rain.

Finally all other intelligent animals live in warm climates, or aquatic ones. It would make no sense for them to have clothing in such environments. If they were meant to have clothing too they would obviously live in much colder climates.

Warrdog is finally starting to think unlike you sheeple.
Wait a second.  Are you saying that there are other creatures who have the feeling of modesty?  That, I find hard to believe.  And if you aren't then are you telling me that modesty could not be an evolved trait?  That, I also find hard to believe.

It has always been to my understanding that humans began wearing clothing when they developed complex emotions such as modesty and love.  Love developed from the need to have a partner to care for our young.  I've always assumed that somewhere along that line is where we began wearing clothes.  
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on October 02, 2010, 01:44:40 PM
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?
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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2009, 12:27:27 PM »
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 12:15:29 PM
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 11:58:57 AM
Exactly, just because we have a brain devoted to using tools does not mean we would wear clothing. I mean even though the concept of a tool and clothing is basically the same, clothing IS NOT A TOOL!

Why don't reptiles wear sweaters? Who better to wear a turtle neck than a turtle? Also, if clothing was not an inherent trait made only for humans we would see an evolution of clothing, perhaps clothing would become more complex as we became more skilled at making it. You see NO evidence for this. Also, you would see things like chimps using leaves to shield themselves from the rain.

Finally all other intelligent animals live in warm climates, or aquatic ones. It would make no sense for them to have clothing in such environments. If they were meant to have clothing too they would obviously live in much colder climates.

Warrdog is finally starting to think unlike you sheeple.
Wait a second.  Are you saying that there are other creatures who have the feeling of modesty?  That, I find hard to believe.  And if you aren't then are you telling me that modesty could not be an evolved trait?  That, I also find hard to believe.

It has always been to my understanding that humans began wearing clothing when they developed complex emotions such as modesty and love.  Love developed from the need to have a partner to care for our young.  I've always assumed that somewhere along that line is where we began wearing clothes.  

(You'd be wrong there. You are confusing evolution with the bible. All evolutionary theories say nudity is only frowned upon culturally. You will find many naked tribes in areas that are warm enough to not require clothing.)


So you admit that we wear clothing because of modesty? HA, how come no other animals are modest? Most will have sex in front of anyone. This is also proof that God wants blacks to be lower down, because african cultures put less value on clothing. If modesty is a trait it is a god instilled one.

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iznih

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2009, 12:34:17 PM »
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 11:58:57 AM
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on March 13, 2009, 10:06:01 AM
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 09:45:43 AM
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on March 13, 2009, 08:56:20 AM
Clothes are proof evolution never happened.
Please....explain....

Why were humans the only animal to evolve into clothing.

I mean even though the concept of a tool and clothing is basically the same, clothing IS NOT A TOOL!

could you explain that? what is the difference between a tool and clothing?
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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2009, 12:37:01 PM »
Quote from: iznih on March 13, 2009, 12:34:17 PM
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 11:58:57 AM
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on March 13, 2009, 10:06:01 AM
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 09:45:43 AM
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on March 13, 2009, 08:56:20 AM
Clothes are proof evolution never happened.
Please....explain....

Why were humans the only animal to evolve into clothing.

I mean even though the concept of a tool and clothing is basically the same, clothing IS NOT A TOOL!

could you explain that? what is the difference between a tool and clothing?


No one would wear a hammer. Wearing a clock might be considered ok, but a hammer? Seriously.
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Moonlit

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2009, 12:45:22 PM »
I would say clothing is a tool if you think about all the things it is worn for.  (ie. sex, title, warmth....) 

Also, okay, so some cultures wear little clothing but they still cover up parts of themselves.  I haven't seen a single tribe that hadn't been wearing at least some clothing in some form.  Yes they may be bare-breasted but the women still wear loincloths. 

And other animals aren't modest because they haven't developed that complex of emotions.  They may feel pain, happiness, sadness and fear.  But that's all basic.
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on October 02, 2010, 01:44:40 PM
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?
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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2009, 12:48:07 PM »
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 12:45:22 PM
I would say clothing is a tool if you think about all the things it is worn for.  (ie. sex, title, warmth....) 

Also, okay, so some cultures wear little clothing but they still cover up parts of themselves.  I haven't seen a single tribe that hadn't been wearing at least some clothing in some form.  Yes they may be bare-breasted but the women still wear loincloths. 

And other animals aren't modest because they haven't developed that complex of emotions.  They may feel pain, happiness, sadness and fear.  But that's all basic.

Modesty is a social complex. People are not born modest, and you will notice that until kids are taught otherwise they are basically streakers. How often did your child care about putting on some pants before running around the house when you had company over?

There are some cultures that people wear nothing at all. At most they will wear symbols for luck or out of tradition.
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Moonlit

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2009, 12:52:34 PM »
I see what you're saying Raist but I still don't understand something.  How do you get "evolution does not exist" out of most people wear clothing?  Unless, you really are trolling and don't believe anything  you just said.  In which case, :P.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 01:59:03 AM by Jack »
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on October 02, 2010, 01:44:40 PM
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?
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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2009, 12:57:15 PM »
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 12:52:34 PM
I see what you're saying Raist but I still don't understand something.  How do you get "evolution does not exist" out of most people wear clothing?  Unless, you really are trolling and don't believe anything  you just said.  In which case, :P.

The socratic method says you ask your students questions and get the answers from them. In the process you let them learn logically. I believe in the approach of challenging people to prove me wrong. Perhaps giving them hints along the way. Evolution is one of the most misunderstood concepts in the world (by misunderstood I mean people assume they do understand it) and anything I can do to clear up misunderstandings I will.

That being stated, evolution didn't happen. This can be seen by frogs. They grow gills in the second stage of their life, if they didn't they would drown in the air, meaning they are irreducibly complex.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 01:59:19 AM by Jack »
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Moonlit

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2009, 01:01:08 PM »
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 12:57:15 PM
That being stated, evolution didn't happen. This can be seen by frogs. They grow gills in the second stage of their life, if they didn't they would drown in the air, meaning they are irreducibly complex.
Evolution didn't happen because of frogs?  :-\
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on October 02, 2010, 01:44:40 PM
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?
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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2009, 01:02:20 PM »
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 01:01:08 PM
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 12:57:15 PM
That being stated, evolution didn't happen. This can be seen by frogs. They grow gills in the second stage of their life, if they didn't they would drown in the air, meaning they are irreducibly complex.
Evolution didn't happen because of frogs?  :-\

Yeah. If they didn't grow lungs they would drown in the air. And if they didn't grow legs, they would drown in the water.

Irreducibly complex.
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Moonlit

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2009, 01:04:59 PM »
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 01:02:20 PM
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 01:01:08 PM
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 12:57:15 PM
That being stated, evolution didn't happen. This can be seen by frogs. They grow gills in the second stage of their life, if they didn't they would drown in the air, meaning they are irreducibly complex.
Evolution didn't happen because of frogs?  :-\
Yeah. If they didn't grow lungs they would drown in the air. And if they didn't grow legs, they would drown in the water.

Irreducibly complex.
So, just because they evolved differently, evolution didn't happen.  What about platypuses?  They lay eggs and have bills.
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on October 02, 2010, 01:44:40 PM
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?
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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2009, 01:07:07 PM »
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 01:04:59 PM
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 01:02:20 PM
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 01:01:08 PM
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 12:57:15 PM
That being stated, evolution didn't happen. This can be seen by frogs. They grow gills in the second stage of their life, if they didn't they would drown in the air, meaning they are irreducibly complex.
Evolution didn't happen because of frogs?  :-\
Yeah. If they didn't grow lungs they would drown in the air. And if they didn't grow legs, they would drown in the water.

Irreducibly complex.
So, just because they evolved differently, evolution didn't happen.  What about platypuses?  They lay eggs and have bills.

Uhhh neither of those things would kill a platypus. Are you posting high again?
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iznih

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2009, 01:08:52 PM »
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 12:57:15 PM
They grow gills in the second stage of their life, if they didn't they would drown in the air, meaning they are irreducibly complex.

i'd say it the other way round: all "frogs" that didn't grow gills have died, so only frogs with that special feature survived till now in the form we know them. actually eidence in favour of evolution.

btw interesting approach to teach something
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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2009, 01:10:40 PM »
Isn't it? I call it trollecation. (though it gets hard when they take a wrong turn to correct them, because you try to prove them wrong whether they are right or wrong)


I meant they grow lungs but you got the idea so it is unimportant.

My question is, how did the first ones gain the ability to grow lungs without already having the ability to go on land?
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Moonlit

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2009, 01:14:42 PM »
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 01:07:07 PM
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 01:04:59 PM
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 01:02:20 PM
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 01:01:08 PM
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 12:57:15 PM
That being stated, evolution didn't happen. This can be seen by frogs. They grow gills in the second stage of their life, if they didn't they would drown in the air, meaning they are irreducibly complex.
Evolution didn't happen because of frogs?  :-\
Yeah. If they didn't grow lungs they would drown in the air. And if they didn't grow legs, they would drown in the water.

Irreducibly complex.
So, just because they evolved differently, evolution didn't happen.  What about platypuses?  They lay eggs and have bills.
Uhhh neither of those things would kill a platypus. Are you posting high again?
No but, we're talking about an animal that shows traits of two different groups.  You have your frog who is mostly anphibian but shows characteristics of a fish.  You also have a platypus who's mostly mammal but shows charactaristics of a reptile and/or bird.

And on your more specific question:  They were probably evolved from a species that already had the ability to go on land but went back into the water for a number of possible reasons.
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on October 02, 2010, 01:44:40 PM
You think that a photograph is indisputable evidence?  Would you like me to show you a photograph of Barack Obama having sex with a gorilla?
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iznih

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2009, 01:24:19 PM »
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 01:10:40 PM
Isn't it? I call it trollecation. (though it gets hard when they take a wrong turn to correct them, because you try to prove them wrong whether they are right or wrong)
fitting name. i think sometimes (in a case you described) it can be quite frustrating because no matter what answer they give it appears to be flawed. as a side effect they learn debating.
Quote
My question is, how did the first ones gain the ability to grow lungs without already having the ability to go on land?

how do you know it happend that way? there could have been individuals with the ability to go on land and no lungs (perhaps quite deadly). the cause of both modifications in first place, maybe a random mutation?

i think moonlits point only puts the whole problem to a different time and animal.
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Raist

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Re: Evolution didn't happen
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2009, 01:38:19 PM »
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 01:14:42 PM
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 01:07:07 PM
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 01:04:59 PM
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 01:02:20 PM
Quote from: Moonlit on March 13, 2009, 01:01:08 PM
Quote from: Raist on March 13, 2009, 12:57:15 PM
That being stated, evolution didn't happen. This can be seen by frogs. They grow gills in the second stage of their life, if they didn't they would drown in the air, meaning they are irreducibly complex.
Evolution didn't happen because of frogs?  :-\
Yeah. If they didn't grow lungs they would drown in the air. And if they didn't grow legs, they would drown in the water.

Irreducibly complex.
So, just because they evolved differently, evolution didn't happen.  What about platypuses?  They lay eggs and have bills.
Uhhh neither of those things would kill a platypus. Are you posting high again?
No but, we're talking about an animal that shows traits of two different groups.  You have your frog who is mostly anphibian but shows characteristics of a fish.  You also have a platypus who's mostly mammal but shows charactaristics of a reptile and/or bird.

And on your more specific question:  They were probably evolved from a species that already had the ability to go on land but went back into the water for a number of possible reasons.

But they don't go back in the water. Maybe you should look for a frog that breaths air but doesn't leave the water.
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