Why would so many people lie about the flat earth?

Wait, I just thought of something. One of the most agreed upon reasons for the conspiracy to exist is profit, right? Something about pocketing the budgets that would normally be spent on space travel? (Dunno if that's the popular theory, but I seem to recall reading someone talking about space travel funding being taken for personal gain.)

What would you call it?

I would call it cooperative space exploration.

So far your argument is badly structured.

Nations are competing to go to the stars.

Therefore they go to either NASA or RFSA (the competition) in order to get there.

As always, inherent contradictions are self evident.

Wait, I just thought of something. One of the most agreed upon reasons for the conspiracy to exist is profit, right? Something about pocketing the budgets that would normally be spent on space travel? (Dunno if that's the popular theory, but I seem to recall reading someone talking about space travel funding being taken for personal gain.)

Yes.  In fact, there's a whole thread about the money NASA is playing with right now.

But, in short:

The Russian space agency started the modern version of the conspiracy at some point in the two to three years before they supposedly launched the first satellite into space when they figured out that space travel was impossible.

They had several reasons for doing so:

1.  The cold war was in full swing, and "sending" a satellite into space when America couldn't do it was just another way of showing the world that communism was the better system.

2.  By getting a large head start on the rest of the world, they would have the advantages as they figured out how to use this new science model.

3.  At some point, they could reveal the truth, mocking the rest of the world for not being able to do what they could do.

Now, they faked the satellite launch and began working on the science model, expecting that it would be at least ten years before anyone would challenge their space supremacy.

The USA did the same thing after WW2.  We were certain that no one could duplicate the atomic bomb in less than twenty years, when in reality, it took the Russians less than five.

They made the same mistake.  The National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics , backed by massive amounts of money, soon found the truth.

How the two nations decided to keep the conspiracy is something that we will never know, unless one of the people that made the deal speaks up.  It can be assumed that a deal was cut.  Russia got to put the first "man in space" and America got to put the first "man on the moon."

Sometime after that, the people running the conspiracy discovered that besides knowing things no one else did, there was a great deal of money to be made in not actually having a space program.  It might have been one of those greedy Americans, or it might have been a corrupt Russian, but the Conspiracy became a billion dollar business, which is shown by the fact that no one, not even the accounting department of NASA or the outside Auditors called in to audit them can say where all their money goes.

As countries came closer to being able to push past the LEO and close to breaking the secret open, either Russian or American members of the Conspiracy would visit the nation and induct their people into the conspiracy.

There are several ways of doing this.

1.  Greed.  The Conspiracy is a multi-billion dollar business and everyone has a price.

2.  Blackmail.  Many people, not all mind you, but many of them have something in their past to hide.  When you can draw on the combined intelligence resources of the USA and Russia, you can find those little secrets.

3.  Simple threats.  If nothing else works, a simple promise to kill a man's family can work wonders, especially if you have more than enough power to do it.

There are a few more possible ways to coerce people, and I'm certain that you can all think of a couple.  The point here is that as each country reaches the point that they are coming close to the limits of space flight, somewhere around the LEO, they are brought in line with the conspiracy by one means or another.

Over the last couple of decades, the conspiracy has had to expand, to include some people that have little to do with NASA or space.


There is also a second possible reason for the conspiracy, a second hypothesis.

We claim that the primary motive for it is money...  but what if it's not?

WW2:  The Government built bomb shelters in many areas... but only to protect a selected segment of the people.

During the Cold War, they did the same thing.

All of the end time scenarios that the government has is based on the rather simple idea that they can't save everyone.

So, if space flight is not possible, that means that the human race is stuck on this planet, no matter what, correct?

The government looks at that and then looks at rising population counts.  Even China, with its draconian birth control policy, is rapidly running out of room.

In three to four more generations, the earth's resources will no longer be able to handle the human population without a very significant breakthrough or some form of relief.

When a population gets too big, ways are found to relief the stress.  War, Famine, Plague, whatever.

The Conspiracy people are planning ahead, using the funds from the Conspiracy to built secret havens, places to protect the percentage of the people that they think should be saved.

That they will also choose the people that get saved, and will probably include a majority of their families is merely a bonus.

In this model, that missing money is actually going to building and supplying the shelters that they will move into when whatever disaster afflicts the world strikes.

Now, these are not yet theories... merely hypothesizes.  When I have enough evidence to project one above the other, it will be the theory.

First of all, I thought temporary space travel was possible. You know, rocket up, rocket down. Says so in the FAQ, anyway. 

Your Conspiracy doesn't seem to keep in mind that the space program doesn't have anywhere near the funding it once did; if it's all about the bottom line, be it for personal gain or just to build those shelters, then theoretically it would be more profitable for all to just tell the truth and accept the flood of contributions from companies salivating at the thought of what they might wring out of such things as cold light and dark energy. Considering new administrations blame previous administrations for everything that goes wrong, without fail, it wouldn't be too difficult for a new administration to also seek a bit of a publicity boost by being the first ones to reveal the long-hidden truth about the Universe. I'm not speaking of a single individual, but rather one of the governments involved in the Conspiracy, like the U.S. To be terribly honest, very few people think we have a hope in hell of colonizing the moon, let alone another planet, at the rate of population growth; this would not be a new concept for anyone.

But let's assume they want to keep it a secret, for whatever reason. Even if they want funds to build shelters, if they're so powerful, (and apparently so good at covering a paper trail,) why bother with a space program at all? Especially since this program apparently balances on a lie that could theoretically be exposed at any moment; no organization, no matter how powerful, can be one hundred percent certain that they won't be found out. In fact, the bigger they are, (and your suggestion is that this is one of the largest ever assembled,) the harder they would be to hide, in every sense of the word.

They could just take the money and then blame a government scandal if they don't cover their tracks, which also happens all the time. Politicians are just replaced with more members of the Conspiracy, and life goes on until the next scandal. Adding multiple space agencies, numerous personnel and equipment... it's sloppy.

Furthermore, 'we can assume the deal was cut' seems to be a bit of a shortcut, given the unspoken reason for your argument would be 'we can assume the deal was cut because the Earth is flat.' When you have to use your theory to prove the hypothesis you're using to prove your theory...

First of all, I thought temporary space travel was possible. You know, rocket up, rocket down. Says so in the FAQ, anyway. 

Your Conspiracy doesn't seem to keep in mind that the space program doesn't have anywhere near the funding it once did; if it's all about the bottom line, be it for personal gain or just to build those shelters, then theoretically it would be more profitable for all to just tell the truth and accept the flood of contributions from companies salivating at the thought of what they might wring out of such things as cold light and dark energy. Considering new administrations blame previous administrations for everything that goes wrong, without fail, it wouldn't be too difficult for a new administration to also seek a bit of a publicity boost by being the first ones to reveal the long-hidden truth about the Universe. I'm not speaking of a single individual, but rather one of the governments involved in the Conspiracy, like the U.S. To be terribly honest, very few people think we have a hope in hell of colonizing the moon, let alone another planet, at the rate of population growth; this would not be a new concept for anyone.

But let's assume they want to keep it a secret, for whatever reason. Even if they want funds to build shelters, if they're so powerful, (and apparently so good at covering a paper trail,) why bother with a space program at all? Especially since this program apparently balances on a lie that could theoretically be exposed at any moment; no organization, no matter how powerful, can be one hundred percent certain that they won't be found out. In fact, the bigger they are, (and your suggestion is that this is one of the largest ever assembled,) the harder they would be to hide, in every sense of the word.

They could just take the money and then blame a government scandal if they don't cover their tracks, which also happens all the time. Politicians are just replaced with more members of the Conspiracy, and life goes on until the next scandal. Adding multiple space agencies, numerous personnel and equipment... it's sloppy.

Furthermore, 'we can assume the deal was cut' seems to be a bit of a shortcut, given the unspoken reason for your argument would be 'we can assume the deal was cut because the Earth is flat.' When you have to use your theory to prove the hypothesis you're using to prove your theory...

Yeah, well the second theory was a bit off the cuff.  The money angle is a much better theory.  http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/3013427  details a great many problems with NASA which have apparently been allowed to continue for 20 twenty years without anyone doing anything about it.

You should be able to find the thread where we have been discussing it for the last two days fairly easily.

I think it's all about the money.

Yes, rockets can go up and come back, it's sustained flight that they say is impossible.

So, the space program has budget problems. Truly a rare occurance in government.

I live in Canada, and recently forty billion dollars in value has been lost from the Quebec Pension Fund. There is to be no probe or investigation carried out to confirm the cause of it, which has been described as a poor return in revenue. So, as far as the government is concerned, their excuse is genuine.

The Conspiracy really, really wouldn't need the Space Program to make money. Maybe once upon a time, it was viable, with the space race and all the resulting funding, but nowadays, it's just a liability. Dangerous; as bad as it would be for people to be told that everything with a lie, it would much worse if they found out for themselves. As things stand, the government could still profit from telling the truth, and setting up an appropriate scapegoat; they sound more than organized enough to pull it off. Maintaining the deception until its bitter end will just ensure they get hunted down to the four (ahem) corners of the Earth, and the risk has pitifully little return compared to good ol' political corruption.

Anyway, I'll seek out the thread, although if it's been going for awhile and is full of posts I won't be joining the debate for awhile; I wouldn't want to repeat what's been stated, so I'll probably read through all the posts first.


http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090225/caisse_loss_090225/20090225?hub=TopStories

I read the story in my newspaper, the Ottawa Citizen. I could try and find the specific article that stated no probe would be conducted, if you wish. ^_^

So, the space program has budget problems. Truly a rare occurance in government.

I live in Canada, and recently forty billion dollars in value has been lost from the Quebec Pension Fund. There is to be no probe or investigation carried out to confirm the cause of it, which has been described as a poor return in revenue. So, as far as the government is concerned, their excuse is genuine.

The Conspiracy really, really wouldn't need the Space Program to make money. Maybe once upon a time, it was viable, with the space race and all the resulting funding, but nowadays, it's just a liability. Dangerous; as bad as it would be for people to be told that everything with a lie, it would much worse if they found out for themselves. As things stand, the government could still profit from telling the truth, and setting up an appropriate scapegoat; they sound more than organized enough to pull it off. Maintaining the deception until its bitter end will just ensure they get hunted down to the four (ahem) corners of the Earth, and the risk has pitifully little return compared to good ol' political corruption.

Anyway, I'll seek out the thread, although if it's been going for awhile and is full of posts I won't be joining the debate for awhile; I wouldn't want to repeat what's been stated, so I'll probably read through all the posts first.

It would be better to let it lapse... but how?  They started it to make money and one up the other nations and since then... well, hypothetically, if it was true, what would it do the the social/political organizations and countries to reveal that a bare handful of people has made fools of the world for fifty years?  (Bare handful compared to the numbers of people in the world.)

If you were running it today, how would you end it?

First of all, I thought temporary space travel was possible.

It is, there's nothing in Flat earth theory to prevent space travel (albeit temporary)

And one must question that if there is a mechanism to keep the moon "up", it must also be able to keep rockets "up".

If I were an established country, with a new administration, I would fulfill the time honored tradition, a political move developed ever since the first caveman stood on a prehistoric soap box.

Blame the other guys.

Sure, the rest of the countries would be in a storm of shite unlike any other, but people typically have fairly short attention spans. Sure, there would be grumbling and the prior administrations would be villified. But, in the end, the current administration of the country that talks would be seen as those dedicated to Truth and Justice, who shone the Light of Revelation, etc, etc, etc... they might still be in a bit of trouble, but it'd still be less than they would find themselves in if they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

The Conspiracy's other members would be a little busy with the aforementioned shitstorm, and limited in terms of retaliation... with them occupied, the country that caves in will have free access to any and all benefits this new flood of knowledge would bring.

There's a sociology concept called Prisoner's Dilemna; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

Sure, everyone benefits to some extent if everyone keeps quiet, but sooner or later someone (or a mini-conspiracy of someones,) will decide they can benefit more by taking their own path and so screw the whole Conspiracy over. They're willing to screw with the population, after all, what's to stop them from turning on their 'friends?' Maybe they'll be right in thinking it's the best choice for them, maybe they'll be wrong, but since when has greed been limited by common sense?

If I were an established country, with a new administration, I would fulfill the time honored tradition, a political move developed ever since the first caveman stood on a prehistoric soap box.

Blame the other guys.

Sure, the rest of the countries would be in a storm of shite unlike any other, but people typically have fairly short attention spans. Sure, there would be grumbling and the prior administrations would be villified. But, in the end, the current administration of the country that talks would be seen as those dedicated to Truth and Justice, who shone the Light of Revelation, etc, etc, etc... they might still be in a bit of trouble, but it'd still be less than they would find themselves in if they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

The Conspiracy's other members would be a little busy with the aforementioned shitstorm, and limited in terms of retaliation... with them occupied, the country that caves in will have free access to any and all benefits this new flood of knowledge would bring.

There's a sociology concept called Prisoner's Dilemna; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

Sure, everyone benefits to some extent if everyone keeps quiet, but sooner or later someone (or a mini-conspiracy of someones,) will decide they can benefit more by taking their own path. Maybe they'll be right, maybe they'll be wrong, but since when has greed been limited by common sense?

This assumes that the Admin knows about it.  Currently, the model has a few people in NASA running the conspiracy in this country while a few more in each of the space agencies of the space flight viable countries run their agency.

There are a few others involved, that have to be involved, but it is not the entire government of any nation.

Call it 300 greedy bastards who don't want their personal money train to stop until they're ready to retire.

Quote from: Zanten on March 09, 2009, 05:29:57 PM

If I were an established country, with a new administration, I would fulfill the time honored tradition, a political move developed ever since the first caveman stood on a prehistoric soap box.

Blame the other guys.

Sure, the rest of the countries would be in a storm of shite unlike any other, but people typically have fairly short attention spans. Sure, there would be grumbling and the prior administrations would be villified. But, in the end, the current administration of the country that talks would be seen as those dedicated to Truth and Justice, who shone the Light of Revelation, etc, etc, etc... they might still be in a bit of trouble, but it'd still be less than they would find themselves in if they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

The Conspiracy's other members would be a little busy with the aforementioned shitstorm, and limited in terms of retaliation... with them occupied, the country that caves in will have free access to any and all benefits this new flood of knowledge would bring.

There's a sociology concept called Prisoner's Dilemna; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

Sure, everyone benefits to some extent if everyone keeps quiet, but sooner or later someone (or a mini-conspiracy of someones,) will decide they can benefit more by taking their own path. Maybe they'll be right, maybe they'll be wrong, but since when has greed been limited by common sense?

This assumes that the Admin knows about it.  Currently, the model has a few people in NASA running the conspiracy in this country while a few more in each of the space agencies of the space flight viable countries run their agency.

There are a few others involved, that have to be involved, but it is not the entire government of any nation.

Call it 300 greedy bastards who don't want their personal money train to stop until they're ready to retire.

How old do you think the conspiracy is?

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on March 09, 2009, 05:33:41 PM

Quote from: Zanten on March 09, 2009, 05:29:57 PM

If I were an established country, with a new administration, I would fulfill the time honored tradition, a political move developed ever since the first caveman stood on a prehistoric soap box.

Blame the other guys.

Sure, the rest of the countries would be in a storm of shite unlike any other, but people typically have fairly short attention spans. Sure, there would be grumbling and the prior administrations would be villified. But, in the end, the current administration of the country that talks would be seen as those dedicated to Truth and Justice, who shone the Light of Revelation, etc, etc, etc... they might still be in a bit of trouble, but it'd still be less than they would find themselves in if they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

The Conspiracy's other members would be a little busy with the aforementioned shitstorm, and limited in terms of retaliation... with them occupied, the country that caves in will have free access to any and all benefits this new flood of knowledge would bring.

There's a sociology concept called Prisoner's Dilemna; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

Sure, everyone benefits to some extent if everyone keeps quiet, but sooner or later someone (or a mini-conspiracy of someones,) will decide they can benefit more by taking their own path. Maybe they'll be right, maybe they'll be wrong, but since when has greed been limited by common sense?

This assumes that the Admin knows about it.  Currently, the model has a few people in NASA running the conspiracy in this country while a few more in each of the space agencies of the space flight viable countries run their agency.

There are a few others involved, that have to be involved, but it is not the entire government of any nation.

Call it 300 greedy bastards who don't want their personal money train to stop until they're ready to retire.

How old do you think the conspiracy is?

The current form is just over 50, having started 1954/5/6 in Russia.

...so, when the FAQ says

'A: There exists a conspiracy among world governments claiming to have space programs and has disseminated the lie to the other governments, the media and the general public. The conspiracy hides the Earth's true shape from us for unknown objectives.'

It really means

A: There exists a conspiracy, but not among world governments, claiming to have space programs and has disseminated the lie to the other governments, the media and the general public. The conspiracy hides the Earth's true shape from us for unknown objectives.

I'm guessing that the FET isn't exactly a united front, which would likely put it on the same page as RET. Still, you might want to mention that divide on the FAQ itself, to avoid any more misunderstandings such as this one.

So, I guess the ice wall would be populated by hired mercs, as opposed to mainstream soldiers, and all transportation of resources would likely be commercial? I mean, if they want to keep the government out of it, they can hardly start using official shipping vessels, or anything that might lead the government to them.

Quote from: svenanders on March 09, 2009, 05:35:32 PM

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on March 09, 2009, 05:33:41 PM

Quote from: Zanten on March 09, 2009, 05:29:57 PM

If I were an established country, with a new administration, I would fulfill the time honored tradition, a political move developed ever since the first caveman stood on a prehistoric soap box.

Blame the other guys.

Sure, the rest of the countries would be in a storm of shite unlike any other, but people typically have fairly short attention spans. Sure, there would be grumbling and the prior administrations would be villified. But, in the end, the current administration of the country that talks would be seen as those dedicated to Truth and Justice, who shone the Light of Revelation, etc, etc, etc... they might still be in a bit of trouble, but it'd still be less than they would find themselves in if they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

The Conspiracy's other members would be a little busy with the aforementioned shitstorm, and limited in terms of retaliation... with them occupied, the country that caves in will have free access to any and all benefits this new flood of knowledge would bring.

There's a sociology concept called Prisoner's Dilemna; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

Sure, everyone benefits to some extent if everyone keeps quiet, but sooner or later someone (or a mini-conspiracy of someones,) will decide they can benefit more by taking their own path. Maybe they'll be right, maybe they'll be wrong, but since when has greed been limited by common sense?

This assumes that the Admin knows about it.  Currently, the model has a few people in NASA running the conspiracy in this country while a few more in each of the space agencies of the space flight viable countries run their agency.

There are a few others involved, that have to be involved, but it is not the entire government of any nation.

Call it 300 greedy bastards who don't want their personal money train to stop until they're ready to retire.

How old do you think the conspiracy is?

The current form is just over 50, having started 1954/5/6 in Russia.

Alright! How old do you think the people were who started this?

Quote from: svenanders on March 09, 2009, 05:35:32 PM

How old do you think the conspiracy is?

The current form is just over 50, having started 1954/5/6 in Russia.

lrn2fetheory

Bavarian Globe Makers Guild

FFS

I actually think the conspiracy started as soon as the US and Soviet Union nabbed as many Nazi rocket scientists that they could following the second world war and learned the truth from them.

I actually think the conspiracy started as soon as the US and Soviet Union nabbed as many Nazi rocket scientists that they could following the second world war and learned the truth from them.

@everyone:  Pay attention... I did say the current form.  It started with the Russians finding out... oh never mind, scroll back and read it if you want.

The FE conspiracy theory is not a unified theory by any means.  There are at least four separate hypothesis... which is why it's so confusing.

Aye, but wouldn't every seperate theory bring with it its own separate weaknesses? I mean, if the governments are not involved, then it raises the issue of how a supposedly subordinate organization could get around them so effectively. If the governments are involved, then it raises the question as how they can so smoothly trick the population, the other countries, and even their own inner departments, (including budgetary sections,) along with the question of the use of official government resources.

The problem that seems to arise is that any and all arguments against the Conspiracy are counter-acted with something chosen from one of the multiple separate hypothesis, and any additional arguments raised against that particular hypothesis is countered with a piece from another hypothesis, and so on and so forth. Be like fighting a multi-headed Hydra; every time you try and focus your attention on one of them, another one tries to take a bite at you.

I noticed you thought the idea of the Flat Earth data being falsified was just funny when it was brought up in one of the other threads. At least, I assume you did, given the sarcastic comment. Is there any specific reason?

Aye, but wouldn't every seperate theory bring with it its own separate weaknesses? I mean, if the governments are not involved, then it raises the issue of how a supposedly subordinate organization could get around them so effectively. If the governments are involved, then it raises the question as how they can so smoothly trick the population, the other countries, and even their own inner departments, (including budgetary sections,) along with the question of the use of official government resources.

The problem that seems to arise is that any and all arguments against the Conspiracy are counter-acted with something chosen from one of the multiple separate hypothesis, and any additional arguments raised against that particular hypothesis is countered with a piece from another hypothesis, and so on and so forth. Be like fighting a multi-headed Hydra; every time you try and focus your attention on one of them, another one tries to take a bite at you.

I noticed you thought the idea of the Flat Earth data being falsified was just funny when it was brought up in one of the other threads. At least, I assume you did, given the sarcastic comment. Is there any specific reason?

That's why I'm trying to make a theory that makes at least some sense before I wiki it.  I would hate to have a gaping big hole in my wiki conspiracy theory.

For the same reason the RE'ers can't understand the FE conspiracy... there doesn't appear to by a profit in it.  Daniel could make a few bucks selling shirts, maybe... but not enough to make this a viable income, unless a gimmick to bring it to higher levels of attention is found.

Who said there had to be profit involved? Cognitive Dissonance would fully explain it.

'Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously.'

For example, in 1956 a book was released detailing the formation of a Doomsday Cult under the guidance of one Marion Keech, a housewife from Chicago. According to this group, the world would end on December 21st, and that the cult would be rescued by a spacecraft. Two sociologists infiltrated this group, and had a theory; that those who believed in it most strongly, followers that had sold their houses and scattered their possessions, (NOT to Miss Keech, by the way,) would only believe more strongly when the end of the world did not (hopefully) occur.

This is the sequence of events, as stated on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

'-Prior to December 20. The group shuns publicity. Interviews are given only grudgingly. Access to Keech's house is only provided to those who can convince the group that they are true believers. The group evolves a belief system?provided by the automatic writing from the planet Clarion?to explain the details of the cataclysm, the reason for its occurrence, and the manner in which the group would be saved from the disaster.
-December 20. The group expects a visitor from outer space to call upon them at midnight and to escort them to a waiting spacecraft. As instructed, the group goes to great lengths to remove all metallic items from their persons. As midnight approaches, zippers, bra straps, and other objects are discarded. The group waits.
-12:05 A.M., December 21. No visitor. Someone in the group notices that another clock in the room shows 11:55. The group agrees that it is not yet midnight.
-12:10 A.M. The second clock strikes midnight. Still no visitor. The group sits in stunned silence. The cataclysm itself is no more than seven hours away.
-4:00 A.M. The group has been sitting in stunned silence. A few attempts at finding explanations have failed. Keech begins to cry.
-4:45 A.M. Another message by automatic writing is sent to Keech. It states, in effect, that the God of Earth has decided to spare the planet from destruction. The cataclysm has been called off: "The little group, sitting all night long, had spread so much light that God had saved the world from destruction."
-Afternoon, December 21. Newspapers are called; interviews are sought. In a reversal of its previous distaste for publicity, the group begins an urgent campaign to spread its message to as broad an audience as possible. '


So, in the face of evidence that disproved their theory, that the world didn't end, the individuals ended up finding a rationalization for the Earth's continued existence that did not necessitate a change in their beliefs.

That is the key aspect, the profit, as you yourself put it. A Conspiracy is far better to consider than the simple possibility that the Earth might not be flat, and that by extension the view you hold might be mistaken. No matter what evidence is presented that the Earth is round, the Conspiracy will enable supporters of the Flat Earth Theory to disregard it, and to avoid the unpleasant feeling that is cognitive dissonance.

The problem with that theory is that few of the people on this site truly believes in the theory in the way those people believed in their idea.

Most of the people here are far too pragmatic to believe in things.

...and the people who thought the world would end probably didn't believe it was flat. If they were told about the theories here, in an attempt to discourage them from their theory, there's a pretty good chance they would say precisely the same thing. That they were too pragmatic to believe in such things. And please join their group before God destroyed the planet.

They're wrong, obviously, because the world didn't end. But your theory about the Conspiracy seems to designed to avoid ever being proven wrong, because the Conspiracy would keep you from ever trying to take a look at it, from testing your theory in a manner that didn't involve jet streams.

I know at least one of Rowbotham's experiments, the Bedford Level experiment, have been conducted by differant groups. Of those groups, one said it proved the Earth was round, and another said it proved the Earth was concave.

...and the people who thought the world would end probably didn't believe it was flat. If they were told about the theories here, in an attempt to discourage them from their theory, there's a pretty good chance they would say precisely the same thing. That they were too pragmatic to believe in such things. And please join their group before God destroyed the planet.

They're wrong, obviously, because the world didn't end. But your theory about the Conspiracy seems to designed to avoid ever being proven wrong, because the Conspiracy would keep you from ever trying to take a look at it, from testing your theory in a manner that didn't involve jet streams.

I know at least one of Rowbotham's experiments, the Bedford Level experiment, have been conducted by differant groups. Of those groups, one said it proved the Earth was round, and another said it proved the Earth was concave.

Not really.  To be honest, my attempt to create a working conspiracy theory is simply an exercise in creative writing, to see if I can make people stop and wonder about it for a minute.

I don't believe in anything except love.

Aye, mine's taking potshots at working conspiracy theories in progress. ^_^ The delightful thing about conspiracy theories is that they're so difficult to disprove, because their entire existence is based on hiding. I've tried a Devil's Advocate role, on occasion, but it doesn't quite get my creative juices flowing.

Besides, tell me that any and all photographic evidence is inadmissable and you're pretty much stuck with me; I love frustrating challenges.

Still, you definately have your work cut out for you in assembling a working theory, in this case; again, bigger a conspiracy is, harder it becomes to hide completely, and this particularly conspiracy would evidentially have to be a big one.

Anyone can prove the local mayor is stealing while he's in office.

I've just set my sights a bit higher than that.

...such as proving something you yourself don't believe in? Isn't that a little counter-productive? If everyone decides that anyone can prove the local mayor is stealing while he's in office, and nobody actually does it because they consider it beneath them, the mayor would be the only one that benefited.

To each their own, I suppose. I imagine we could start off a new debate on this subject.

...such as proving something you yourself don't believe in? Isn't that a little counter-productive? If everyone decides that anyone can prove the local mayor is stealing while he's in office, and nobody actually does it because they consider it beneath them, the mayor would be the only one that benefited.

To each their own, I suppose. I imagine we could start off a new debate on this subject.

Why would I want to believe in it?

Believer is for the preachers.  I want to stretch my mind, not my faith.

Heh, I was right, we could make a new argument based on this.

So if you ever did prove there was a Conspiracy and the Earth was flat, you would then flip to the other side and say the Earth was round and there was a Conspiracy to prevent that as well? If critical thought is about expanding your mind and moving forward, it doesn't work so well if you decide that anything that actually gets proven should be disproven because... it got... prov...

And here come the headaches.

I suppose my basic question here is; if you yourself 'believe' in nothing, then do you solely choose the side you will support if it is the minority, or considered to be disproven? If you only choose to do so, even when the issue has been debated to the point of futility, then what are you stretching your mind towards? What good is an expanded consciousness if you solely base your conclusions on the fact that they are not the conclusions the majority hold?

I mean, if you do that, you're not letting the greater number of people decide your stance, which is good, but then you're letting the smaller number of people decide your stance, which is decidedly less positive.

Wouldn't you technically be believing that the subject is unimportant compared to the exercise? o.O

RET is an easy pill to swallow and relatively simple to maintain when you have a stranglehold over access to 'space'.

I take it that you've misspoken here: access to 'space'. You did see 'space' with the unaided eye most any clear night. You can launch a high-altitude balloon without RE's permission. You can watch the Sun rise every morning at the time RE predicts. Perhaps, you might a stranglehold over viewing the Earth from space in person.

There are allegedly only three countries that currently have human spaceflight capabilities. Of those countries' populations, only those with the "right stuff" are considered candidates; one must pursue a socially alienating education, extensive rigorous training and "strict" physical examination (and one must already be employed by the government to apply in the first place). Of such people, only those deemed satisfactory by the respective state agency may be accepted.

So, no. Not just anyone can become an astronaut.

It's pretty damn insulting to the few people that work harder than anyone else to participate in one of the most testing, demanding jobs in the world to say they are all liars and frauds.