Vigilantism

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Secret User

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Vigilantism
« on: February 07, 2009, 08:23:13 AM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
I vote for SecretUser as supreme overlord of TFES.

condemnant quod non intellegunt

Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2009, 09:36:19 AM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?

Well, it's an interestingly worded question... I think a qualified yes is in order.

I am one of those people that feels that if someone hurt my family, I would probably kill them (slowly).

However, clearly, shooting jaywalkers from my second story window is a bit extreme.

Old testament vigilantism FTW!
"An honest god is the noblest work of man. ... God has always resembled his creators. He hated and loved what they hated and loved and he was invariably found on the side of those in power." - Robert G. Ingersoll

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Ravenwood240

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2009, 09:45:25 AM »
It depends on a lot of variables.

Have the authorities completely failed, or are they temporarily stymied by the laws?
Have you tried every legal means, including any civil possibilities to resolve the problem?

If you have tried all the legal options and they have failed, then defending yourself and your people is very much warranted.
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2009, 09:57:43 AM »
Vigilantism is ONLY appropriate when the vigilante dresses up in tight costumes and fights crime under a pseudonym

ie


In all seriousness, vigilantism could quickly degenerates into an arms race between vigilantes and criminals if there are no police to settle things down officially.

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grogberries

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2009, 01:41:21 PM »
It's only okay for me in two ways.

1. Vigilantes exclusively use bow and arrows
2. They eat what they kill.
Think hard. Think Flat.

Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2009, 01:55:07 PM »
I think this mught add a little something to the discussion

http://www.breakthematrix.com/War-on-Drugs/Civil-war-and-vigilantism-gripping-Mexico

Are these people justified?
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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grogberries

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 01:05:01 AM »
I deem it immoral sense it doesn't cohere to my 2 limitations.
Think hard. Think Flat.

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Raist

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2009, 01:32:06 AM »
I deem it immoral sense it doesn't cohere to my 2 limitations.

Your thinking of a good/nature aligned ranger. Perhaps even a druid.

Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2009, 04:29:14 AM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
No.

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Raist

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2009, 04:36:00 AM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
No.
So.... You just ride the government down like a sinking ship, or like a prom date that sort of dies but you can pretend she's still alive for like 5 more minutes?

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midgard

  • 1300
Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 05:04:47 AM »
I think it's everybody's responsibility to be a peace keeper no matter what. If you see somebody attacking somebody else, it's up to you to do something about it.

In one sense, I think having an "official" body for this makes this duty a 'commodity' and eases their mind as they shirk their responsibility to their fellow man, country and god.

Just joking, when the going gets tough I get the fuck out of dodge. There's always one more cave to hide in.

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Proleg

Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 05:51:31 AM »
Your thinking of a good/nature aligned ranger. Perhaps even a druid.
I'm actually tempted to sog this.

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Raist

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2009, 06:44:18 AM »
Your thinking of a good/nature aligned ranger. Perhaps even a druid.
I'm actually tempted to sog this.

Don't haet me just cuz I d20'd your mom.

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Wakka Wakka

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2009, 04:15:34 PM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
Normally when I'm not sure I just cop a feel.

Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2009, 04:21:24 PM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.
I hate myself for coming here

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Raist

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2009, 08:46:23 PM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.

And if those representing us/ the system we established fails, it is our job to make a new one.

Kingman, just because we made something, doesn't mean we are bound in any way to following it.

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Proleg

Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2009, 11:22:33 AM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.
What kind of Stalinist reasoning is this?

Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2009, 02:44:40 PM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.

And if those representing us/ the system we established fails, it is our job to make a new one.

Kingman, just because we made something, doesn't mean we are bound in any way to following it.
You misunderstand me. i was mostly thinking about when people say the Government caused 9/11 or covered up the Kennedy assassination, because when you think of it, who exactly hides that stuff? It probably isn't congress or the Supreme court because those are mostly average people. That just leaves The President but one man can't do that much without getting caught. I'm probably in the wrong thread for this...
I hate myself for coming here

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Raist

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2009, 02:47:07 PM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.

And if those representing us/ the system we established fails, it is our job to make a new one.

Kingman, just because we made something, doesn't mean we are bound in any way to following it.
You misunderstand me. i was mostly thinking about when people say the Government caused 9/11 or covered up the Kennedy assassination, because when you think of it, who exactly hides that stuff? It probably isn't congress or the Supreme court because those are mostly average people. That just leaves The President but one man can't do that much without getting caught. I'm probably in the wrong thread for this...

I'm pretty sure the it'd be high ranking officials and perhaps the president hiding it. We also have the head of the CIA/FBI, and thousands of agents that did small tasks that they did not understand, or were told it is part of a more important plan. There is no way random people throughout the government accomplished that.

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Sexual Harassment Panda

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2009, 02:52:23 PM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.

Average citizens my ass. Lots of them were born into rich families, and they can even get away with murder. They can vote to up their salary, and then they get a $15000/month retirement policy for them and their spouse for the rest of their life after only serving only one term.
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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2009, 04:05:45 PM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.

Much to learn have you.  Trust in government will be the end of liberty.  The government receives power at the consent of the governed, it goes much further than just voting.

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Wakka Wakka

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2009, 08:00:36 PM »
We elect parts of the government but we are not the gov't, big difference.
Normally when I'm not sure I just cop a feel.

Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2009, 08:23:32 PM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.

Much to learn have you.
Thank you, Master Yoda
I hate myself for coming here

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Benocrates

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2009, 05:22:22 AM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.

Much to learn have you.  Trust in government will be the end of liberty.  The government receives power at the consent of the governed, it goes much further than just voting.

One of my classes this semester challenges the thesis that Western liberal governments gain their legitimacy from the consent of the governed. It replaces it with a theory of bio-power and the private and public realms dissolving into the "social." It's really interesting and persuasive. Our main texts are Hannah Arendt (Human Condition) and Michelle Foucault (History of Sexuality).

I'd suggest Arendt to anyone interested in the discussion of what is uniquely human, i.e. Raist.
Quote from: President Barack Obama
Pot had helped
Get the fuck over it.

Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2009, 07:18:53 AM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.

Much to learn have you.  Trust in government will be the end of liberty.  The government receives power at the consent of the governed, it goes much further than just voting.
Well of course. By having a Government we give up natural born rights, but we trust the Government because we need someone to rule over us, to keep the Country going.
I hate myself for coming here

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2009, 09:29:00 AM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.

Much to learn have you.  Trust in government will be the end of liberty.  The government receives power at the consent of the governed, it goes much further than just voting.
Well of course. By having a Government we give up natural born rights, but we trust the Government because we need someone to rule over us, to keep the Country going.

You willingly except that?  Our founders didn't, in fact they thought quite the opposite.

From the Declaration of Independence:

Quote
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ? That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ? That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2009, 10:54:39 AM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.

Much to learn have you.  Trust in government will be the end of liberty.  The government receives power at the consent of the governed, it goes much further than just voting.
Well of course. By having a Government we give up natural born rights, but we trust the Government because we need someone to rule over us, to keep the Country going.

You willingly except that?  Our founders didn't, in fact they thought quite the opposite.

From the Declaration of Independence:

Quote
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ? That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ? That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Of course I do. They are talking about the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But if we were truly free, we would be able to do what we want. Murder, steal, rape... These are "rights" That we created governments to make sure we don't fulfill because they are wrong and some people would try to do anyways. Thats why we need government.
I hate myself for coming here

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theonlydann

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Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2009, 10:56:27 AM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.

Much to learn have you.  Trust in government will be the end of liberty.  The government receives power at the consent of the governed, it goes much further than just voting.
Well of course. By having a Government we give up natural born rights, but we trust the Government because we need someone to rule over us, to keep the Country going.

You willingly except that?  Our founders didn't, in fact they thought quite the opposite.

From the Declaration of Independence:

Quote
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ? That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ? That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Of course I do. They are talking about the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But if we were truly free, we would be able to do what we want. Murder, steal, rape... These are "rights" That we created governments to make sure we don't fulfill because they are wrong and some people would try to do anyways. Thats why we need government.
No, we do not need government for that, although one could argue that in every system, their would be a form of government...

Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2009, 10:57:29 AM »
Is it to your belief that vigilantism is justified when the government has failed to enforce the law?
If the government has become a unlawful entity seemingly beyond change then yes, this is a revolution is in order.
The Government is us. The representatives were ,or still are, average citizens. this includes everyone in the Government.

Much to learn have you.  Trust in government will be the end of liberty.  The government receives power at the consent of the governed, it goes much further than just voting.
Well of course. By having a Government we give up natural born rights, but we trust the Government because we need someone to rule over us, to keep the Country going.

You willingly except that?  Our founders didn't, in fact they thought quite the opposite.

From the Declaration of Independence:

Quote
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ? That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ? That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Of course I do. They are talking about the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But if we were truly free, we would be able to do what we want. Murder, steal, rape... These are "rights" That we created governments to make sure we don't fulfill because they are wrong and some people would try to do anyways. Thats why we need government.
No, we do not need government for that, although one could argue that in every system, their would be a form of government...
Yes we do. The Government upholds our rights that are good and suppresses the bad ones. Thats a very dumbed down sentence just FYI
I hate myself for coming here

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Proleg

Re: Vigilantism
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2009, 10:58:56 AM »
Yes we do. The Government upholds our rights that are good and suppresses the bad ones. Thats a very dumbed down sentence just FYI
If our rights are natural and inalienable, why do we need governments to protect and uphold them?