Flat Earth's world.

Ok, this seems to be the image that crops up a lot when FE's are asked about the shape or structure of their ice wall and flat Earth in general. I know there's no accepted one, but that doesn't matter, because there has to be a shape similar to this in Flat Earth, and what i'm about to discuss means that only a sphere will work with the accepted facts, it doesn't matter how much meddling you do to your "Map".

Ok: Flight times to specific destinations.



Let's say we're taking a flight from London Gatwick, to JFK In New York, USA. 
I've done this flight, and it takes about 6 hours consistetly.
Ok, now let's fly from New York to San Francisco.
I've done this too, it takes about 5 and a half hours.
According to basic Mathematics, (And unfortunately I'm going to have to assume Maths is not in on this conspiracy) using Pythagoras' theorem:

6 Squared is 36, and 5.5 Squared is 30.25, added together = 66.25.
The Square root of which should determine the hypotenuse and therefore rough flight time of Gatwick to San Francisco, 8.14.

Now, i've also flown from Gatwick on a nonstop flight to San Francisco... and do you know how long it took? 14 hours.
Now, If I can get there in 8, and Flat Earth knows this, how come in reality the quickest you can do it in in a commercial plane, is about 14 hours, 6 more than your reality takes it to be.

Why is this? And don't bullshit me saying prove it, or pick apart my sentence structure, answer the question: How is it possible.
And take into account this works the same for flights from South America to Australia, which according to that map, estimates to be about 40 hours, and it definitely does not take that long. No direct commercial flight takes more than 24 hours.
Flat Earth cannot account for this.

I must conclude the Earth is a sphere for this global truth to hold.
And no, not every single plane in the world is rigged up with gas devices that knock out pilots and passengers and detours them around to make it look like it takes a lot less time.

It's a pretty conclusive argument.

Many flights go 'though the ice wall' by the flat earth map and 'appear on the other side'

I've left Australia on a plane, flown over nothing but water, and arrived in South America. However innacurate your flat earth map may be, its completely unfeasable that this could happen on a flat earth without taking several days.

The map you referenced is only an illustration of what the flat earth looks like. It is not to scale and based off of faulty RE measurements. In flight, distance is also not the only variable in how long it takes to fly. There is weather and decisions made by the pilot.

Oh dear God man, read the post. You don't need an accurate map, there is no possible variation of a flat Earth map that would allow for the the flight times to remain constant. YOU DON'T NEED AN ACCURATE MAP.

YOU
DON'T
NEED
AN
ACCURATE
MAP.

We have data of the flight times so can approximately, show where the planes take off and land based on speed etc etc, and therefore we can approximately show that on a flat Earth, the times are NO WAY going to EVER work, therefore you have to conclude that the Earth is a sphere, seeing as an average flight's speed takes a maximum of 24 hours to get to the opposite side of any given place on the sphere. It does not take 40 hours or so, and if you move S. America closer to Australia on your hypothetical map to get it to fit in with EXPERIMENT RESULTS, then another flight time would be distorted.

It just doesn't work for flat earth.

Also see this topic: http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=26661.0


And Weather and decisions made by the pilots do not take an extra DAY to fly to Australia. I'm sorry, that's a completely ridiculous comment, that could account for maybe a plane that was an hour late, provided there was a hurricane and he decided to take a long way round. Don't be so obtuse, we can gain from this that either:

You're wrong
OR
You're so stubborn that it doesn't matter what evidence is put in front of you that is irrefutable, you will never believe that the Earth is not flat.

  Jet streams, jet streams. For example - http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=21947.msg443264#msg443264

  Jet streams, jet streams. For example - http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=21947.msg443264#msg443264

Jet streams move in only one direction.  As A -> B flight times are roughly the same as B -> A flight times we know this is not a significant factor in flight times.  Especially not enough to accidently fool the planets population into thinking the world is round.

The size of most continents is fairly well known, for a small fee one can get the train from Paris to Vladivostok (Pacific Coast of Russia) I know have a friend who did this, as an aside definitely some thing to do apparently. Ditto for the US and Canada, Australia. Its not even that uncommon for people to go from the North to the South of America, that pops up on the news from time to time. Infact cargo ship regularly sail through he southern ocean. Im pretty sure that someone would have noticed if the Earth was far from the shape we think it is. Infact now I come to think of it cruises going around the Southern Ocean are common place. Given that these are intended for elderly people its a suprise anyone has ever actually survived one given the length of their voyage.

Also the jetstreams are very narrow bands of wind a few miles wide that go aroung the world at 4 different points. Which raises more interesting questions in itself. Anyway I actually believe im writing this.

The size of most continents is fairly well known, for a small fee one can get the train from Paris to Vladivostok (Pacific Coast of Russia) I know have a friend who did this, as an aside definitely some thing to do apparently. Ditto for the US and Canada, Australia. Its not even that uncommon for people to go from the North to the South of America, that pops up on the news from time to time. Infact cargo ship regularly sail through he southern ocean. Im pretty sure that someone would have noticed if the Earth was far from the shape we think it is. Infact now I come to think of it cruises going around the Southern Ocean are common place. Given that these are intended for elderly people its a suprise anyone has ever actually survived one given the length of their voyage.

Also the jetstreams are very narrow bands of wind a few miles wide that go aroung the world at 4 different points. Which raises more interesting questions in itself. Anyway I actually believe im writing this.

The time of flight question has been seen repeatedly here and always it seems to be stuck there that Tom(or anyone else) asks flight data(depart/arrival times and who knows what else) and doesn't accept publicly available airlines data. That goes also for jet streams. Do you have actual data that they act like you say they act and not like Tom says they act? And no, wikipedia article isn't reliable source. And I guess any other scientific article. Because they are all in conspiracy...

Well I travel quite widely with my work and I have only ever encountered the jetstream on transatlantic/Northern Russia flights and over roughly North/Central Africa. I can also vouch for the flight times between Europe/North America the far East and a couple of other assorted places. That said I could be in on the conspiracy. In fact only about 20 people in the western world aren't.

No counter argument?

Counter-argument to what?

Counter-argument to what?

The argument I put forward. This is a debate forum, and this is a thread within said debate forum. What the hell did you think?

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on February 10, 2009, 10:30:59 PM

Counter-argument to what?

The argument I put forward. This is a debate forum, and this is a thread within said debate forum. What the hell did you think?

You've gotten counter-arguments.  And your argument is based on a straw man:

Now, If I can get there in 8, and Flat Earth knows this, how come in reality the quickest you can do it in in a commercial plane, is about 14 hours, 6 more than your reality takes it to be.

We never make that claim.  The bottom line is that we don't have an accurate FE map so the argument you make based on the map you used is unfounded, as has been pointed out.

Also flight times is an issue that's been done to death.  We see a "new" thread about it about once every couple days.  So excuse us for concentrating on the more concrete issues of FET and ignoring a minor issue that we've responded to countless times in the past.

We never make that claim.  The bottom line is that we don't have an accurate FE map so the argument you make based on the map you used is unfounded, as has been pointed out.

This is such a nice argument: we cannot make even an approximate map, so anything you say cannot be proved.

The correct argument would be: we cannot make a map because any attempt at doing one ends being ridiculously fraught with mistakes. If I cannot outperform the maps of navigators from the 16th century, I must have a big hole in my theory.

This has been done to death and there is no conclusion because FE theorists only want evidence that they can gather themselves, and even then they do not concede their failings.

This has been done to death

Agreed.

and there is no conclusion because FE theorists only want evidence that they can gather themselves, and even then they do not concede their failings.

I've always conceded that there are weaknesses in the theory and this is one of them (in the southern hemisphere anyway).  There are weaknesses in any scientific theory; none of them are perfect.  I just think it's unfair to say that it disproves FET without sufficient evidence that it actually does, and in my opinion that evidence has yet to be presented.

Jet streams move in only one direction.  As A -> B flight times are roughly the same as B -> A flight times we know this is not a significant factor in flight times.  Especially not enough to accidently fool the planets population into thinking the world is round.

What if there were jet streams moving in opposite directions at different altitudes?  It's well documented in the oceans and there are accepted cases in the atmosphere, so couldn't there be great circulating currents of air, counter-rotating above/below each other? Bear in mind that modern aircraft have very few discrete systems, so false altitude data to ensure the plane is in the right stream is not inconceivable.

How about a Moebius strip? Has anyone tried putting the Earth on that?

I've always conceded that there are weaknesses in the theory and this is one of them (in the southern hemisphere anyway).  There are weaknesses in any scientific theory; none of them are perfect.  I just think it's unfair to say that it disproves FET without sufficient evidence that it actually does, and in my opinion that evidence has yet to be presented.

Nice, someone who thinks the earth is flat using the word HEMISPHERE which means half sphere.  So let me wrap this up for you and put a bow on it.  You basically just said;

I've always conceded that there are weaknesses in the theory and this is one of them (in the southern half of the spherical earth anyway).  There are weaknesses in any scientific theory; none of them are perfect.  I just think it's unfair to say that it disproves FET without sufficient evidence that it actually does, and in my opinion that evidence has yet to be presented.

you know, for someone who REALLY believes the earth is flat, you would think you would get used to using the phrase "outer ring" or "southern ring" and speaking of which, i wouldnt even use the word SOUTHERN or SOUTH or any other nautical direction for on your earth it would be impossible to navigate in such a manner.

You know, for someone who clearly thinks of themselves as being pretty damned clever thanks very much, you really haven't got the point have you?

How about a Moebius strip? Has anyone tried putting the Earth on that?

Moebius strippers never show you their back sides.

Eheh fantastic stuff. I might get an FE map, can I get one with "'ere be dragons on it"?

Eheh fantastic stuff. I might get an FE map, can I get one with "'ere be dragons on it"?

Sorry, that one is sold out, but we do have the "Here thar be Monsters" version for just 19.95 plus tax and shipping....

Oooh thats tempting what scale is it?

Oooh thats tempting what scale is it?

   In what style?  The Olde Tyme Pyrate Mapp is in 1/250,000,  The Viking map that led them to America in 1362 is in the original scale.  (Which I, being only half educated so far, don't know the name of.)

You know, for someone who clearly thinks of themselves as being pretty damned clever thanks very much, you really haven't got the point have you?

You know, for someone who clearly never passed 2nd grade grammar and never contributes anything to the threads, you really should STFU... and very soon lest you look more like an ignorant twatwaffle than you already do.

Quote from: RoundSquares on February 11, 2009, 06:55:40 AM

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on February 10, 2009, 10:30:59 PM

Counter-argument to what?

The argument I put forward. This is a debate forum, and this is a thread within said debate forum. What the hell did you think?

You've gotten counter-arguments.  And your argument is based on a straw man:

Quote

Now, If I can get there in 8, and Flat Earth knows this, how come in reality the quickest you can do it in in a commercial plane, is about 14 hours, 6 more than your reality takes it to be.

We never make that claim.  The bottom line is that we don't have an accurate FE map so the argument you make based on the map you used is unfounded, as has been pointed out.

Also flight times is an issue that's been done to death.  We see a "new" thread about it about once every couple days.  So excuse us for concentrating on the more concrete issues of FET and ignoring a minor issue that we've responded to countless times in the past.

Having an accurate map is not important. In point of fact, there is data easily available to anyone who takes a bit of time to gather it. Ask you local booking agent for international flights. You just go up to them and ask: "How long is the flight from A to B?". We know that they are going to be accurate as many business people that fly internationally require accurate flight times so that they can arrange meeting. If they are going to be more than an hour or so late, then this could drastically impact their businesses and they would not stand for that (plus if they were out so much all the time, people would notice and that would not be  good for any conspiracy).

Using this you can construct a "Map" of flight times around the world.

Using this we can construct geodesics for flight times for the entire world. Putting these geodesics together will allow us to determine if we are on a flat Earth or a round Earth.

Guess what, we live on a Round Earth. There is no way that the geodesics for the flight times that actually exist can ever match that of a Flat Earth.

If I just post a diagram up, you will require me to post the data I based it on as well, then if what typically occurs happens, then you will call into question the data I posted. There is no way that I can post any data, diagram, photo, movie, or any other evidence that will convince you.

So, all I am going to do is post the METHOD by which you can gather the data, confirm the data and do the calculations for yourselves. This is actually better than just posting data, as if all I do is post data, you can't know the method by which I got that data and confirmed its validity.

In other words, if I just posted the data, you would have to do it all yourself anyway, so why make more work than necessary?

If you can show that the data that can be obtained from travel agencies when constructed into its geodesics, geometrically proves that the Earth is flat, then I will accept that the Earth is flat (but I know that they can't as I know people who have had to do this for their job and I saw the results, method and source data).

However, if you do this and get the result that show that the times that aricraft actually take completely rule out a flat Earth, will you be willing to abandon FET and accept RET? If not, then there is no further purpose to this thread.

I am willing to put my world view on the line. Are you? Do you have that confidence that you are correct? You seem to be talking like you do. So is this all bluster, or do you really believe that the Earth is Flat?

Thank you Edtharan,

To reiterate: the lack of an accurate FE map is not important. Flight times prove that Earth cannot be flat for any possible configuration of landmasses to conform to given data. Therefore, it must be wrong.

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on February 11, 2009, 01:54:31 PM

I've always conceded that there are weaknesses in the theory and this is one of them (in the southern hemisphere anyway).  There are weaknesses in any scientific theory; none of them are perfect.  I just think it's unfair to say that it disproves FET without sufficient evidence that it actually does, and in my opinion that evidence has yet to be presented.

Nice, someone who thinks the earth is flat using the word HEMISPHERE which means half sphere.  So let me wrap this up for you and put a bow on it.  You basically just said;

Quote

I've always conceded that there are weaknesses in the theory and this is one of them (in the southern half of the spherical earth anyway).  There are weaknesses in any scientific theory; none of them are perfect.  I just think it's unfair to say that it disproves FET without sufficient evidence that it actually does, and in my opinion that evidence has yet to be presented.

you know, for someone who REALLY believes the earth is flat, you would think you would get used to using the phrase "outer ring" or "southern ring" and speaking of which, i wouldnt even use the word SOUTHERN or SOUTH or any other nautical direction for on your earth it would be impossible to navigate in such a manner.

Oh, very clever. 

North is hubward, south is rimward, east is turnwise and west is widdershins.

Quote from: fenterb on February 06, 2009, 08:22:51 AM

Jet streams move in only one direction.  As A -> B flight times are roughly the same as B -> A flight times we know this is not a significant factor in flight times.  Especially not enough to accidently fool the planets population into thinking the world is round.

What if there were jet streams moving in opposite directions at different altitudes?  It's well documented in the oceans and there are accepted cases in the atmosphere, so couldn't there be great circulating currents of air, counter-rotating above/below each other? Bear in mind that modern aircraft have very few discrete systems, so false altitude data to ensure the plane is in the right stream is not inconceivable.

First, provide observational data of such jet streams. Second, show that such jet streams would solve FET's problem with arrival times in the SH. Third, show that FET is simpler and more predictive. Other than that, you demonstrated logic.