Flat Earth's world.

I'm just suggesting mechanisms to provide grounds for reasonable doubt, not necessarily a decisive case.  The merits of the scheme I suggested are open to debate, which is, after all, the whole point of this site.

I'm just suggesting mechanisms to provide grounds for reasonable doubt, not necessarily a decisive case.  The merits of the scheme I suggested are open to debate, which is, after all, the whole point of this site.

I suggest that your failing to work hard to support your claim relieves the debate of your point. When you care to provide (extraordinary) evidence to support your extraordinary claim, we'll surely reconsider your point. Until then, we have real work to do...

The Earth is flat, it's up to you guys to prove otherwise.

The Earth is flat, it's up to you guys to prove otherwise.

Well, now you've claimed that the earth is flat. Therefor you have to provide evidence for
your claim.

I've got a question. Can we add airline pilots to the list of conspirators? You know, jet streams. Presumably the pilots would have to aim for the streams, and they would technically know what direction they were going in. Unless the companies are tanking because they've been investing heavily in self-flying commercial planes.

If not, then this conspiracy is getting pretty sizable. I mean, the guards at the Ice Wall, (assuming the snowmobile supported force of over six hundred,) the required personnel to maintain and pilot any helicopters, equipment, shelters, etc, those responcible for transporting the supplies to the barren icy rim, the space agencies, at least three governments and now all the airline pilots...

Any other conspirators come to mind?

I've got a question. Can we add airline pilots to the list of conspirators? You know, jet streams. Presumably the pilots would have to aim for the streams, and they would technically know what direction they were going in. Unless the companies are tanking because they've been investing heavily in self-flying commercial planes.

If not, then this conspiracy is getting pretty sizable. I mean, the guards at the Ice Wall, (assuming the snowmobile supported force of over six hundred,) the required personnel to maintain and pilot any helicopters, equipment, shelters, etc, those responcible for transporting the supplies to the barren icy rim, the space agencies, at least three governments and now all the airline pilots...

Any other conspirators come to mind?

Oh many, but it's not that bad.  Some of those people, like the pilots who deliver supplies are like most people... they accept what they're told.

"Hey bob, you're taking a load to Barrow point.  It's at MGRS KR12345678."

"OK Joe.  See you when I get back."

Now, if he punches that number into his GPS unit and lands at Point Barrow, he assumes that it's where he was told it is...  but he doesn't know.

An excellent point, given the reliance on GPS technology, but what about before it? The earliest form of GPS could provide a navigational fix about once per hour, and that was only in 1960. Unless you also want to include the ground-based radio nav equipment, which would be early 1940s, although those needed the ground-based transmitters that were only located on, well, the ground. Unless of course a system of fake LORAN buoys. Or there was the Decca Navigator, but that was only rated for coastal waters, not sure how it would handle international.

But before the 1940s, before positioning systems that were Point and Click, where navigation required actual navigating... what? Told them maybe they were heading off to supply one of many installations that protected the South Pole's independance? Approachable only by boat, so none could see the wonders on the other side?

Wouldn't there be a record of such installations in the South Pole, to cover it up? This is assuming, as you said, that the boats weren't in on the conspiracy. Or maybe just the individuals they handed their nav logs to were in on it, and all such records were burned?

An excellent point, given the reliance on GPS technology, but what about before it? The earliest form of GPS could provide a navigational fix about once per hour, and that was only in 1960. Unless you also want to include the ground-based radio nav equipment, which would be early 1940s, although those needed the ground-based transmitters that were only located on, well, the ground. Unless of course a system of fake LORAN buoys. Or there was the Decca Navigator, but that was only rated for coastal waters, not sure how it would handle international.

But before the 1940s, before positioning systems that were Point and Click, where navigation required actual navigating... what? Told them maybe they were heading off to supply one of many installations that protected the South Pole's independance? Approachable only by boat, so none could see the wonders on the other side?

Wouldn't there be a record of such installations in the South Pole, to cover it up? This is assuming, as you said, that the boat patrols weren't in on the conspiracy.

There might be anything in the records... but all it takes is a single person to classify it TS "Need to Know Only." and not even the president can look at it without proving a need to know.

If you don't know what it is, how do you prove a need to know about it?

They told people they were going to Antarctica back then, as it is on or near the ice wall, I'm never sure which one it is.  As long as they saw ice, how would they know anything was wrong?  I'm way down south, there's some ice, this must be Antarctica.

This site is a waste of time to even read; I have no clue why I invest so much time in reading this useless stuff.

No matter what argument is brought forth, FE's will never agree with you. So, in other words, this is a website where smart people (people who believe earth is round) post, and then get put down by FE's. The problem with their theory is there is never any thing that is valid. Once again, no matter what argument you give, they will have some excuse as to why it's not valid.

Secondly, It's a good point brought forward about all of the people involved with this. There are thousands of people that would have to be involved in this to make it "work" or for it to be viable. Those thousands of people have tons of a family and friends, and you're going to sit here and tell me not one of them leaked any info? It's like if someone is sickened with a virus, they get on a plane, the virus spreads to all those people, and then travels with them to wherever they end up. It's not as simple as "keeping your mouth shut", I mean, we're talking about these people "knowing" the earth is flat. It would seem kinda serious, right?

But, again, there's no point in any argument because they're all just shot down with one reason or another. The truth is, FE's are just stubborn people who wake up every morning fighting for a theory that has no bearing whatsoever. Because so many people believe in a spherical earth, they know it just pushes our buttons when they say one of their witty little comments that you really can't respond to because they seem so freakin stupid to say what they just said.

So yea, I don't have any posts, I just come here and read around when I'm bored, or even when I'm kind of down because the stuff I read around this website actually makes me crack up a lot of times.

One of the last things I'd like to mention is the FE's here that are really hardcore FE's. They use this site as a tactic to feed their addiction to this retarded theory. I will GUARANTEE that not one of these ignorant people go around in their day to day life talking about how they believe the earth is flat. Why? Because if you said that to pretty much anyone besides the few around here who think the earth is flat, any normal person would look at you and think you're out of your freakin mind.

End of story. Enjoy arguing for years and years and fighting for a wasted cause that won't ever get anywhere.

Quote from: Zanten on March 09, 2009, 03:42:44 PM

An excellent point, given the reliance on GPS technology, but what about before it? The earliest form of GPS could provide a navigational fix about once per hour, and that was only in 1960. Unless you also want to include the ground-based radio nav equipment, which would be early 1940s, although those needed the ground-based transmitters that were only located on, well, the ground. Unless of course a system of fake LORAN buoys. Or there was the Decca Navigator, but that was only rated for coastal waters, not sure how it would handle international.

But before the 1940s, before positioning systems that were Point and Click, where navigation required actual navigating... what? Told them maybe they were heading off to supply one of many installations that protected the South Pole's independance? Approachable only by boat, so none could see the wonders on the other side?

Wouldn't there be a record of such installations in the South Pole, to cover it up? This is assuming, as you said, that the boat patrols weren't in on the conspiracy.

There might be anything in the records... but all it takes is a single person to classify it TS "Need to Know Only." and not even the president can look at it without proving a need to know.

If you don't know what it is, how do you prove a need to know about it?

They told people they were going to Antarctica back then, as it is on or near the ice wall, I'm never sure which one it is.  As long as they saw ice, how would they know anything was wrong?  I'm way down south, there's some ice, this must be Antarctica.

Right, because you clearly would know how the insider of the government works. Do you not realize how ignorant and dumb you look by saying things like this? You sound like a 20 yr old idiot who still lives in his moms basement thinking your in some fantasy land where you know how the world works and you know how the deep insides of the government works.

lol.

Quote from: Zanten on March 09, 2009, 03:42:44 PM

An excellent point, given the reliance on GPS technology, but what about before it? The earliest form of GPS could provide a navigational fix about once per hour, and that was only in 1960. Unless you also want to include the ground-based radio nav equipment, which would be early 1940s, although those needed the ground-based transmitters that were only located on, well, the ground. Unless of course a system of fake LORAN buoys. Or there was the Decca Navigator, but that was only rated for coastal waters, not sure how it would handle international.

But before the 1940s, before positioning systems that were Point and Click, where navigation required actual navigating... what? Told them maybe they were heading off to supply one of many installations that protected the South Pole's independance? Approachable only by boat, so none could see the wonders on the other side?

Wouldn't there be a record of such installations in the South Pole, to cover it up? This is assuming, as you said, that the boat patrols weren't in on the conspiracy.

There might be anything in the records... but all it takes is a single person to classify it TS "Need to Know Only." and not even the president can look at it without proving a need to know.

If you don't know what it is, how do you prove a need to know about it?

They told people they were going to Antarctica back then, as it is on or near the ice wall, I'm never sure which one it is.  As long as they saw ice, how would they know anything was wrong?  I'm way down south, there's some ice, this must be Antarctica.

So, to summarize, the first suggestion is that 'There Is No Evidence That There Is A Conspiracy, And So There Must Be A Conspiracy?' I might have misread, but you're suggesting that all the evidence about the conspiracy has been cleverly hidden, leaving no actual evidence exposed. So, any proof about the conspiracy has been hidden by the conspiracy? That could theoretically apply to every conspiracy ever formulated by anyone, even if these conspiracies contradict each other.

For the second one to be valid, there would still need to be evidence of shipments to Antarctica, to hide the... hiding... *shakes head* Anyway, so presumably the second point is meant to reinforce the first, that any such documents would be classified Top Secret, and therefore hidden.

This site is a waste of time to even read; I have no clue why I invest so much time in reading this useless stuff.

No matter what argument is brought forth, FE's will never agree with you. So, in other words, this is a website where smart people (people who believe earth is round) post, and then get put down by FE's. The problem with their theory is there is never any thing that is valid. Once again, no matter what argument you give, they will have some excuse as to why it's not valid.

Secondly, It's a good point brought forward about all of the people involved with this. There are thousands of people that would have to be involved in this to make it "work" or for it to be viable. Those thousands of people have tons of a family and friends, and you're going to sit here and tell me not one of them leaked any info? It's like if someone is sickened with a virus, they get on a plane, the virus spreads to all those people, and then travels with them to wherever they end up. It's not as simple as "keeping your mouth shut", I mean, we're talking about these people "knowing" the earth is flat. It would seem kinda serious, right?

But, again, there's no point in any argument because they're all just shot down with one reason or another. The truth is, FE's are just stubborn people who wake up every morning fighting for a theory that has no bearing whatsoever. Because so many people believe in a spherical earth, they know it just pushes our buttons when they say one of their witty little comments that you really can't respond to because they seem so freakin stupid to say what they just said.

So yea, I don't have any posts, I just come here and read around when I'm bored, or even when I'm kind of down because the stuff I read around this website actually makes me crack up a lot of times.

One of the last things I'd like to mention is the FE's here that are really hardcore FE's. They use this site as a tactic to feed their addiction to this retarded theory. I will GUARANTEE that not one of these ignorant people go around in their day to day life talking about how they believe the earth is flat. Why? Because if you said that to pretty much anyone besides the few around here who think the earth is flat, any normal person would look at you and think you're out of your freakin mind.

End of story. Enjoy arguing for years and years and fighting for a wasted cause that won't ever get anywhere.

It's actually why I'm here. ^_^ As I've mentioned in another thread, the more dedicated a group is to a theory I disagree with, and the less likely any resolution is, the more I enjoy debating about it. And, to be fair, there are some intelligent individuals on the site. Just because I don't agree with their theory doesn't mean I think any less of them.

No one has yet attempted to respond to my proposal about how flight times can allow us to make a map of the Earth (even if not 100% accurate, but close enough to indicate the shape of the Earth). Remember, the important thing is the Geometries that the map produces, there is a very big difference between the map that would be produced if the Earth was flat as compared to the map that would be produced if the Earth is round.

There is no way such real world data can be faked, unless every person who gets on an international flight is part of the conspiracy (which includes any hard core FEers who board an international flight  ).

We know that the times that the Travel agencies state for flight times has to be correct because if it wasn't then any passenger that left at a certain time and arrived at a time different to what the Travel Agency stated would be very annoyed as they would ahve made arrangements for certain times and would not be off their itinerary.

Because flight times are checked by millions of independent sources that have a vested interest in them being accurate, we can be certain that the flight times are as accurate as they can be. Even if there is a conspiracy, it can't involve all these millions of people (as the conspiracy is supposed to be for profit and the bribes they would have to give for this many people would bankrupt them), and even then if flight times were inaccurate it would be impossible to keep that a complete secret (all one would need is to have people in the start and destination terminals to log the times of departure and arrivals of aircraft to break it).

So, unless the FEers can come up with a feasible method by which the times of an international flight can be faked (in both directions, which rules out any jet stream effect), then they have to conclude that flight times are a valid source of data for determining the shape of the Earth.

The jet stream effect is a perfectly valid explanation, provided you account for the fact that every jet stream comes paired with another - either above or below it, in the opposite direction.

The jet stream effect is a perfectly valid explanation, provided you account for the fact that every jet stream comes paired with another - either above or below it, in the opposite direction.

Again, you loose all credibility. You present: "the fact that every jet stream comes paired with another - either above or below it, in the opposite direction" without any supporting evidence. Furthermore your conclusion is not fully supported. You must show that the additive effect of these second jet streams (or even the primary jet streams in climes when none have been recorded.) would be enough first.

Overall, your efforts are consistently wanting in accuracy and completeness.

The jet stream effect is a perfectly valid explanation, provided you account for the fact that every jet stream comes paired with another - either above or below it, in the opposite direction.

They would be perfectly valid explanation if they existed. Do they? Any observations about them, data, pictures?

Quote from: Robosteve on March 17, 2009, 07:26:45 PM

The jet stream effect is a perfectly valid explanation, provided you account for the fact that every jet stream comes paired with another - either above or below it, in the opposite direction.

They would be perfectly valid explanation if they existed. Do they? Any observations about them, data, pictures?

To RS: Oh, and while you're working on evidence to support your wild speculation, don't forget the jet streams are relatively narrow bands that flow in only one direction, often serpentine, and moving north-to-south-to-north-again with the seasons. Oh, and don't forget to calculate the speed at which they must flow to resolve FE's problem.

The jet stream effect is a perfectly valid explanation, provided you account for the fact that every jet stream comes paired with another - either above or below it, in the opposite direction.

Do you have any evidence of this? There must be evidence that these paired jet streams exist or the airlines would never have found out about them in the first place (and they would ahve had to find out about them before they sent planes up there because right form the start planes were flying in both directions from the start).

Actually one way would be to study clouds. As this was how jet streams were actually discovered, you would think that it would be capable of allowing us to discover jet streams.

However, if you use this data (ie go out and do the observations yourself), you find that jet streams only go in one direction and not only that, they go in the direction predicted by RET.

My conclusion is that you invented this paired jet streams on the spot with no supporting evidence and no knowledge about the actual evidence that exists and has been gathered for over 200 years (well people have been looking at the sky for a lot longer and trying to figure out how it all works - one way is to observe birds in flight, snow geese in particular fligh quite high - higher than mount Everest in fact).

Two streams of air, even if separated by relatively still air, will produce turbulence (basic fluid dynamics that you can replicate for under $1000). This turbulence can easily be detected (launch a balloon, or just look at the motion of clouds - well you could also use a balloon to directly measure any jet stream motions).

So you ahve absolutely no evidence to support your claim, and all the evidence that exists (and can be easily verified by anyone who wishes to) states that you are wrong.

lrn2think.