War Crimes

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #180 on: February 06, 2009, 03:08:25 PM »
Quote
In the wild it's called natural selection.


Most policy is set by urban dwelling folk. Are you suggesting that we are actually wild beasts with only delusions of humanity?
 believe that; the Earth is flat until such time as I stand within the Space Station and personally see that it is a Globe.
or that the Earth is a sphere until such time as I stand upon the Icewall and personally see that it is a Flat Disk.

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Raist

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #181 on: February 06, 2009, 03:18:34 PM »
Quote
In the wild it's called natural selection.


Most policy is set by urban dwelling folk. Are you suggesting that we are actually wild beasts with only delusions of humanity?

I'd say that's a fairly good way to put it.

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Ravenwood240

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #182 on: February 06, 2009, 03:18:49 PM »
Quote
In the wild it's called natural selection.


Most policy is set by urban dwelling folk. Are you suggesting that we are actually wild beasts with only delusions of humanity?


Why, yes.  It takes very little to make a single person violent, very little more to make a mob violent.

Do a google search for the stats on acts of aggression daily world wide.

Then come back and tell me that humans aren't animals with a thin veneer of humanity.
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

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Cinlef

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #183 on: February 06, 2009, 03:35:48 PM »
Quote
In the wild it's called natural selection.


Most policy is set by urban dwelling folk. Are you suggesting that we are actually wild beasts with only delusions of humanity?


Why, yes.  It takes very little to make a single person violent, very little more to make a mob violent.

Do a google search for the stats on acts of aggression daily world wide.

Then come back and tell me that humans aren't animals with a thin veneer of humanity.

Naturalistic Fallacy: Just because it occurs in nature does not mean it is good and ought to be permitted.

Also I find your switch from a denial of war crimes to a might makes right so the fact we committed war crimes perspective deeply troubling

A appalled
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

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Ravenwood240

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #184 on: February 06, 2009, 03:42:45 PM »
Quote
In the wild it's called natural selection.


Most policy is set by urban dwelling folk. Are you suggesting that we are actually wild beasts with only delusions of humanity?


Why, yes.  It takes very little to make a single person violent, very little more to make a mob violent.

Do a google search for the stats on acts of aggression daily world wide.

Then come back and tell me that humans aren't animals with a thin veneer of humanity.

Naturalistic Fallacy: Just because it occurs in nature does not mean it is good and ought to be permitted.

Also I find your switch from a denial of war crimes to a might makes right so the fact we committed war crimes perspective deeply troubling

A appalled
Cinlef

I've got to go but huh?
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

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theonlydann

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #185 on: February 06, 2009, 03:45:28 PM »
Raven your post seems to be missing
commands, not sure if it is the button or if they were unitentionally deleted but add that behind the existing
and it should be fixed

 [/off topic digression]

Friendly neighborhood mod
Cinlef

That would make me feel so much better if I was deleting, changing or moving anything.  Since I'm not and my knowledge of code is only larger than my knowledge of quantum physics, it doesn't help much.

If you like I can use my mod powers to fix your posts and put your responses outside the quote boxes

Friendly neighborhood mod
Cinlef
[/quote]

No... I'll get Greeneyes to figure out what I'm doing wrong after she gets out of class.

That will let her help me, which makes her feel good, which means I'll get to feel good for making her feel good... ahh, never mind.  I can see Dann drooling already.
[/quote]Lesbians in real life do not really do it for me. Lesbians on film on the other hand... totally hot.

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Proleg

Re: War Crimes
« Reply #186 on: February 06, 2009, 04:10:15 PM »
There's a huge difference, Proleg.  There were no laws then, no deeds or ownership, none of that.  
There were, they were just ignored. The treaties were violated, the land stolen, the people either relocated or slaughtered...all in the name of Manifest Destiny.

Considering that the King of England had given the land out before anyone ever saw it, I would say that any treaty made prior to 1776 was either illegal or England's problem.

I believe the Spaniards divvied up the Southern part of the American continent that way as well.
So?

Montana entered the union, officially becoming a state November 8,1889.

My people were not responsible for any wrongs done before then.  And since, as a Salish, my people gave (had stolen from them) the 81 million acres of Montana to... my ancestors, I'm going to sit up here and laugh.

Sorry, but I find this obsession with crimes committed so long ago that no one alive was there just a bit silly.

Doesn't the world have enough current problems, without dredging up this crap?

Make sure it doesn't happen again, yes...

Lay blame for it?  I'll tell you what.  You show me one living person that stole land from the Indians, broke treaties with them or otherwise was responsible for the Trail of Tears, The Bitterroot March or any other hardship and I will join you in calling for legal action.

Until then, know the history, learn from it, but stop wallowing in it.

If my Grandmother, who was a full blooded Salish could get over it, everyone else can.
You were the one condemning Arabs for crimes committed centuries ago...

The effects of American atrocities are just as evident to this day. Ever been to one of the pathetic, dwindling reservations? It's not just Natives either; blacks are also still trying to get over the ordeals of their ancestors. This "crap" doesn't need to be "dredged up". We live amongst it every day.

The United States' shit does not smell better than any other country's. Just because the rest of the world is shoving each other into meat grinders does not mean you can simply whitewash US crimes. This unwarranted feeling of superiority and self-importance is one of the many reasons the world hates the USA. I respect and admire many US institutions as well as the emphasis placed on individual liberty. I am proud of many American achievements (the US is still the only truly secular state in the world) just as I am proud of many Canadian, British, French, German, Chinese (etc.) achievements. I hold the US to the same standards as any other country. It's time Americans did the same.

Re: War Crimes
« Reply #187 on: February 06, 2009, 04:29:30 PM »
Really Native Americans are still being helpd back alon with Blacks? What they hell are you talking about
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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Proleg

Re: War Crimes
« Reply #188 on: February 06, 2009, 04:36:23 PM »
No, they're not. That's the point.

Re: War Crimes
« Reply #189 on: February 06, 2009, 04:40:28 PM »
No, they're not. That's the point.
Reread your post I see your point now forget my earlier post
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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Cinlef

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #190 on: February 06, 2009, 04:48:06 PM »
To refocus the thread the issue initially being discussed was not all previous actions by the USA but whether or not the Bush administration had committed war crimes/ broken US laws and whether or not they should be put on trial

So far the main objection to this (aside from US exceptionalism) is that waterboarding is not "severe enough to constitute torture?

So lets discuss that and/or can anyone find evidence or torture mroe severe than waterboarding that went on under the Bush administration?

A focused
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

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Raist

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #191 on: February 06, 2009, 04:53:26 PM »
To refocus the thread the issue initially being discussed was not all previous actions by the USA but whether or not the Bush administration had committed war crimes/ broken US laws and whether or not they should be put on trial

So far the main objection to this (aside from US exceptionalism) is that waterboarding is not "severe enough to constitute torture?

So lets discuss that and/or can anyone find evidence or torture mroe severe than waterboarding that went on under the Bush administration?

A focused
Cinlef

Perhaps you can't say that waterboarding isn't torture, but if we group all these abusive things under the same law it becomes unfair. Does sleep demand the same punishment as tearing off someone's fingernails? Or breaking their arms, and tearing the tendons in their arms?

The law needs to redefine torture, and then make a lower form for prisoner abuse. These two separate crimes would be easier to define than just the term torture.

?

Cinlef

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #192 on: February 06, 2009, 04:56:46 PM »
To refocus the thread the issue initially being discussed was not all previous actions by the USA but whether or not the Bush administration had committed war crimes/ broken US laws and whether or not they should be put on trial

So far the main objection to this (aside from US exceptionalism) is that waterboarding is not "severe enough to constitute torture?

So lets discuss that and/or can anyone find evidence or torture mroe severe than waterboarding that went on under the Bush administration?

A focused
Cinlef

Perhaps you can't say that waterboarding isn't torture, but if we group all these abusive things under the same law it becomes unfair. Does sleep demand the same punishment as tearing off someone's fingernails? Or breaking their arms, and tearing the tendons in their arms?

The law needs to redefine torture, and then make a lower form for prisoner abuse. These two separate crimes would be easier to define than just the term torture.

What criteria do you propose to differentiate "torture" from "prisoner abuse"?

A curious
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

*

Raist

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #193 on: February 06, 2009, 04:58:00 PM »
To refocus the thread the issue initially being discussed was not all previous actions by the USA but whether or not the Bush administration had committed war crimes/ broken US laws and whether or not they should be put on trial

So far the main objection to this (aside from US exceptionalism) is that waterboarding is not "severe enough to constitute torture?

So lets discuss that and/or can anyone find evidence or torture mroe severe than waterboarding that went on under the Bush administration?

A focused
Cinlef

Perhaps you can't say that waterboarding isn't torture, but if we group all these abusive things under the same law it becomes unfair. Does sleep demand the same punishment as tearing off someone's fingernails? Or breaking their arms, and tearing the tendons in their arms?

The law needs to redefine torture, and then make a lower form for prisoner abuse. These two separate crimes would be easier to define than just the term torture.

What criteria do you propose to differentiate "torture" from "prisoner abuse"?

A curious
Cinlef
Me? I wouldn't even attempt to try to define that. I'd say it'd be fairly easy to define what is abusive and what is actual torture.

?

Cinlef

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #194 on: February 06, 2009, 05:01:14 PM »
To refocus the thread the issue initially being discussed was not all previous actions by the USA but whether or not the Bush administration had committed war crimes/ broken US laws and whether or not they should be put on trial

So far the main objection to this (aside from US exceptionalism) is that waterboarding is not "severe enough to constitute torture?

So lets discuss that and/or can anyone find evidence or torture mroe severe than waterboarding that went on under the Bush administration?

A focused
Cinlef

Perhaps you can't say that waterboarding isn't torture, but if we group all these abusive things under the same law it becomes unfair. Does sleep demand the same punishment as tearing off someone's fingernails? Or breaking their arms, and tearing the tendons in their arms?

The law needs to redefine torture, and then make a lower form for prisoner abuse. These two separate crimes would be easier to define than just the term torture.

What criteria do you propose to differentiate "torture" from "prisoner abuse"?

A curious
Cinlef
Me? I wouldn't even attempt to try to define that. I'd say it'd be fairly easy to define what is abusive and what is actual torture.

It is easy but you won't attempt it?

A puzzled
Cinef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

Re: War Crimes
« Reply #195 on: February 06, 2009, 05:02:18 PM »
To refocus the thread the issue initially being discussed was not all previous actions by the USA but whether or not the Bush administration had committed war crimes/ broken US laws and whether or not they should be put on trial

So far the main objection to this (aside from US exceptionalism) is that waterboarding is not "severe enough to constitute torture?

So lets discuss that and/or can anyone find evidence or torture mroe severe than waterboarding that went on under the Bush administration?

A focused
Cinlef

Perhaps you can't say that waterboarding isn't torture, but if we group all these abusive things under the same law it becomes unfair. Does sleep demand the same punishment as tearing off someone's fingernails? Or breaking their arms, and tearing the tendons in their arms?

The law needs to redefine torture, and then make a lower form for prisoner abuse. These two separate crimes would be easier to define than just the term torture.

What criteria do you propose to differentiate "torture" from "prisoner abuse"?

A curious
Cinlef
Me? I wouldn't even attempt to try to define that. I'd say it'd be fairly easy to define what is abusive and what is actual torture.
I think it should be a combination of things, for one thing if someone is hurting prisoners for ne reason that chould be considered abuse and/or torture ther should also be a requirement of progessive interrogation techniques used ie. cant start right with the worst have to buile up to it.
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

?

Cinlef

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #196 on: February 06, 2009, 05:20:35 PM »
To refocus the thread the issue initially being discussed was not all previous actions by the USA but whether or not the Bush administration had committed war crimes/ broken US laws and whether or not they should be put on trial

So far the main objection to this (aside from US exceptionalism) is that waterboarding is not "severe enough to constitute torture?

So lets discuss that and/or can anyone find evidence or torture mroe severe than waterboarding that went on under the Bush administration?

A focused
Cinlef

Perhaps you can't say that waterboarding isn't torture, but if we group all these abusive things under the same law it becomes unfair. Does sleep demand the same punishment as tearing off someone's fingernails? Or breaking their arms, and tearing the tendons in their arms?

The law needs to redefine torture, and then make a lower form for prisoner abuse. These two separate crimes would be easier to define than just the term torture.

What criteria do you propose to differentiate "torture" from "prisoner abuse"?

A curious
Cinlef
Me? I wouldn't even attempt to try to define that. I'd say it'd be fairly easy to define what is abusive and what is actual torture.
I think it should be a combination of things, for one thing if someone is hurting prisoners for ne reason that chould be considered abuse and/or torture ther should also be a requirement of progessive interrogation techniques used ie. cant start right with the worst have to buile up to it.
cbarnett97would you mind clarifying your comments, I don't follow

A confused
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

*

Raist

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #197 on: February 06, 2009, 05:22:07 PM »
To refocus the thread the issue initially being discussed was not all previous actions by the USA but whether or not the Bush administration had committed war crimes/ broken US laws and whether or not they should be put on trial

So far the main objection to this (aside from US exceptionalism) is that waterboarding is not "severe enough to constitute torture?

So lets discuss that and/or can anyone find evidence or torture mroe severe than waterboarding that went on under the Bush administration?

A focused
Cinlef

Perhaps you can't say that waterboarding isn't torture, but if we group all these abusive things under the same law it becomes unfair. Does sleep demand the same punishment as tearing off someone's fingernails? Or breaking their arms, and tearing the tendons in their arms?

The law needs to redefine torture, and then make a lower form for prisoner abuse. These two separate crimes would be easier to define than just the term torture.

What criteria do you propose to differentiate "torture" from "prisoner abuse"?

A curious
Cinlef
Me? I wouldn't even attempt to try to define that. I'd say it'd be fairly easy to define what is abusive and what is actual torture.

It is easy but you won't attempt it?

A puzzled
Cinef

Lawyers write and define laws, I am definitely not a lawyer.

It would be easy for them.

Re: War Crimes
« Reply #198 on: February 06, 2009, 05:27:26 PM »
I will try because it is just a very rough idea that popped into my head but I think that it should be approached like this everyone should realize that prisoners need to be questioned and in many cases those prisoners are not just going to spill their guts because someone asks them. Realizing that then it countries must be able to use more extreme questioning tactics to get information but they should have to have a procedure of progressively harsher and harsher methods. That way you cannot in my opinion ever use excessive force because the prisoner basicall dictates how much he needs, if he knows the next method will be worst and he is willing to take it on how can you say the he is being tortured. And on the abuse front I think that anything done to a prisoner that causes any harm that is not a clear effort at getting information should be considered abuse and those people should face a very harsh punishment.
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

Re: War Crimes
« Reply #199 on: February 06, 2009, 09:14:50 PM »
OK.

One more fucking time for those who either didn't read this or did and somehow failed to apprehend or comprehend;

Definition of torture
Article 1 of the Convention defines torture as:
Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
? Convention Against Torture, Article 1.1
Actions which fall short of torture may still constitute cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment under Article 16

Ban on torture and cruel and degrading treatment
Article 2 of the convention prohibits torture, and requires parties to take effective measures to prevent it in any territory under its jurisdiction. This prohibition is absolute and non-derogable. "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever may be invoked to justify torture, including war, threat of war, internal political instability, public emergency, terrorist acts, violent crime, or any form of armed conflict. Torture cannot be justified as a means to protect public safety or prevent emergencies. Neither can it be justified by orders from superior officers or public officials. The prohibition on torture applies to all territories under a party's effective jurisdiction, and protects all people under its effective control, regardless of citizenship or how that control is exercised. Since the Conventions entry into force, this absolute prohibition has become accepted as a principle of customary international law.
Because it is often difficult to distinguish between cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment and torture, the Committee regards Article 16's prohibition of such treatment as similarly absolute and non-derogable.
The other articles of part I lay out specific obligations intended to implement this absolute prohibition by preventing, investigating and punishing acts of torture.

Ban on refoulement
Article 3 prohibits parties from returning, extraditing or refouling any person to a state "where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture". The Committee against Torture has held that this danger must be assessed not just for the initial receiving state, but also to states to which the person may be subsequently expelled, returned or extradited.

Is this not defined clearly enough for all of you chicken-hawks who are trying to split hairs on what is torture and what isn't? It's all Illegal!!

So; The US, under the Bush Admin, has clearly violated International Law (to which we are signitors)and any of the personal "lay" opinions mounted as contrary argument here are totally moot and completely fucking irrelevant.

The current US Admin has clearly stated that we have engaged in torture. The only question left here is; will we now uphold our obligations, conduct the necessary investigations and prosecute trials as are indicated to hold those responsible to account.

Btw; the failure to keep adequate record of the "detainees" at Gitmo also constitutes a violation of Law.
 believe that; the Earth is flat until such time as I stand within the Space Station and personally see that it is a Globe.
or that the Earth is a sphere until such time as I stand upon the Icewall and personally see that it is a Flat Disk.

?

Cinlef

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #200 on: February 07, 2009, 10:39:39 AM »
OK.

One more fucking time for those who either didn't read this or did and somehow failed to apprehend or comprehend;

Definition of torture
Article 1 of the Convention defines torture as:
Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
? Convention Against Torture, Article 1.1
Actions which fall short of torture may still constitute cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment under Article 16

Ban on torture and cruel and degrading treatment
Article 2 of the convention prohibits torture, and requires parties to take effective measures to prevent it in any territory under its jurisdiction. This prohibition is absolute and non-derogable. "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever may be invoked to justify torture, including war, threat of war, internal political instability, public emergency, terrorist acts, violent crime, or any form of armed conflict. Torture cannot be justified as a means to protect public safety or prevent emergencies. Neither can it be justified by orders from superior officers or public officials. The prohibition on torture applies to all territories under a party's effective jurisdiction, and protects all people under its effective control, regardless of citizenship or how that control is exercised. Since the Conventions entry into force, this absolute prohibition has become accepted as a principle of customary international law.
Because it is often difficult to distinguish between cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment and torture, the Committee regards Article 16's prohibition of such treatment as similarly absolute and non-derogable.
The other articles of part I lay out specific obligations intended to implement this absolute prohibition by preventing, investigating and punishing acts of torture.

Ban on refoulement
Article 3 prohibits parties from returning, extraditing or refouling any person to a state "where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture". The Committee against Torture has held that this danger must be assessed not just for the initial receiving state, but also to states to which the person may be subsequently expelled, returned or extradited.

Is this not defined clearly enough for all of you chicken-hawks who are trying to split hairs on what is torture and what isn't? It's all Illegal!!

So; The US, under the Bush Admin, has clearly violated International Law (to which we are signitors)and any of the personal "lay" opinions mounted as contrary argument here are totally moot and completely fucking irrelevant.

The current US Admin has clearly stated that we have engaged in torture. The only question left here is; will we now uphold our obligations, conduct the necessary investigations and prosecute trials as are indicated to hold those responsible to account.

Btw; the failure to keep adequate record of the "detainees" at Gitmo also constitutes a violation of Law.

Mythix I've directly quoted the treaty too, I believe people's issue is what constitutes severe.....

A replying
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

?

Ravenwood240

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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #201 on: February 07, 2009, 10:51:30 AM »
Mythix I've directly quoted the treaty too, I believe people's issue is what constitutes severe.....

A replying
Cinlef

Thank you Cinlef... I've only been asking that for like three pages now. ::)

The problem is that when the water based interrogation techniques were looked at, only some of them were declared to be torture, but I can't find a list of what those techniques are, either as torture or of the acceptable variants.

The second problem comes in finding a definition that all countries can accept.  In many areas the removal of a hand for theft is not severe....  But I think about half the USA would have a fit if you tried it here.

Given the cultural, social and religious differences between the western and eastern worlds, between the Middle East and Europe... can there be one single definition of "severe" torture that fits every nation?

And Cinlef... I can't find any single technique used that isn't a bit iffy as to if it's torture or not.  I think the standing for hours with loud pop music is torture, by my opinion, but I hate loud sounds, period.

I think, in the long run, that we'll find that Bush used the AG skillfully and has no knowledge of anything that can be called severe torture in court.

Could some of his underlings have exceeded the mandates and committed torture?  Oh yeah, but you'll never get Bush or any higher ups on those charges.  They'll have their asses covered.
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

Re: War Crimes
« Reply #202 on: February 08, 2009, 06:17:10 AM »
Quote
[I've only been asking that for like three pages now. ::)

Hey, Kids. Here's a big chunk to chew on.

A/RES/39/46 10 December 1984 Meeting no. 93 Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

Article 13 Each State Party shall ensure that any individual who alleges he has been subjected to torture in any territory under its jurisdiction has the right to complain to, and to have his case promptly and impartially examined by, its competent authorities. Steps shall be taken to ensure that the complainant and witnesses are protected against all ill-treatment or intimidation as a consequence of his complaint or any evidence given.

Article 16 1. Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article 1, when such acts are committed by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. In particular, the obligations contained in articles 10, 11, 12 and 13 shall apply with the substitution for references to torture of references to other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

However;
I. The Senate's advice and consent is subject to the following reservations:
(1) That the United States considers itself bound by the obligation under article 16 to prevent `cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment', only insofar as the term `cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment' means the cruel, unusual and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States.

Quote
But does waterboarding constitute "severe" suffering? It doesn't matter why they did it, or even what they did, if it doesn't meet that criteria first.

Severe: Causing great discomfort, damage, or distress.
Cruel: willfully or knowingly causing pain or distress to others. causing or marked by great pain or distress
Inhumane: lacking and reflecting lack of pity or compassion
Degrading: to lower in dignity or estimation. to reduce (someone) to a lower rank, degree, etc.; deprive of office, rank, status, or title. To lower in moral or intellectual character; debase.
Debase. To reduce from a higher to a lower state or grade of worth, dignity, purity, station, etc. to humiliate or shame, as by injury to one's pride or self-respect.
Humiliate: to cause (a person) a painful loss of pride, self-respect, or dignity; mortify.

Status: the standing of a person before the law.
Station: the position, as of persons or things, in a scale of estimation, rank, or dignity; standing.

Thus; by all accounts, every technique used at Abu Graib and Gitmo would seem to fall under at least one of these definitions and would seem meet the criteria under any Article or Amendment.

Also;

FM 34-52 (U.S.. Army Field Manual0
HEADQUARTERS
DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY
Washington, DC, 8 May 1987

PROHIBITION AGAINST USE OF FORCE
The use of force, mental torture, threats, insults, or exposure to unpleasant and inhumane treatment of any kind is prohibited by law and is neither authorized nor. condoned by the US Government. Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. However, the use of force is not to be confused with psychological ploys, verbal trickery, or other nonviolent and noncoercive ruses used by the interrogator in questioning hesitant or uncooperative sources.
The psychological techniques and principles outlined should neither be confused with, nor construed to be synonymous with, unauthorized techniques such as brainwashing, mental torture, or any other form of mental coercion to include drugs. These techniques and principles are intended to serve as guides in obtaining the willing cooperation of a source. The absence of threats in interrogation is intentional, as their enforcement and use normally constitute violations of international law and may result in prosecution under the UCMJ.

Seems clear enough along with this:

The United States Supreme Court ruled in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld ( 000 U.S. 05-184 ) that Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions applied to the War on Terrorism.

War Crimes Act of 1996 TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 118 > ? 2441
? 2441. War crimes

(a) Offense.? Whoever, whether inside or outside the United States, commits a war crime, in any of the circumstances described in subsection (b), shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for life or any term of years, or both, and if death results to the victim, shall also be subject to the penalty of death.
(b) Circumstances.? The circumstances referred to in subsection (a) are that the person committing such war crime or the victim of such war crime is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act).
(c) Definition.? As used in this section the term ?war crime? means any conduct?
(3) which constitutes a grave breach of common Article 3 (as defined in subsection (d)) when committed in the context of and in association with an armed conflict not of an international character.
(d) Common Article 3 Violations.?
(1) Prohibited conduct.? In subsection (c)(3), the term ?grave breach of common Article 3? means any conduct (such conduct constituting a grave breach of common Article 3 of the international conventions done at Geneva August 12, 1949), as follows:
(A) Torture.? The act of a person who commits, or conspires or attempts to commit, an act specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control for the purpose of obtaining information or a confession, punishment, intimidation, coercion, or any reason based on discrimination of any kind.
(B) Cruel or inhuman treatment.? The act of a person who commits, or conspires or attempts to commit, an act intended to inflict severe or serious physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions), including serious physical abuse, upon another within his custody or control.

And This:
TITLE X--MATTERS RELATING TO DETAINEES
SEC. 1001. SHORT TITLE.

This title may be cited as the `Detainee Treatment Act of 2005'.
SEC. 1002. UNIFORM STANDARDS FOR THE INTERROGATION OF PERSONS UNDER THE DETENTION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE.

(a) In General- No person in the custody or under the effective control of the Department of Defense or under detention in a Department of Defense facility shall be subject to any treatment or technique of interrogation not authorized by and listed in the United States Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation.

SEC. 1003. PROHIBITION ON CRUEL, INHUMAN, OR DEGRADING TREATMENT OR PUNISHMENT OF PERSONS UNDER CUSTODY OR CONTROL OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

(a) In General- No individual in the custody or under the physical control of the United States Government, regardless of nationality or physical location, shall be subject to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.

SEC. 1004. PROTECTION OF UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PERSONNEL ENGAGED IN AUTHORIZED INTERROGATIONS

Good faith reliance on advice of counsel should be an important factor, among others, to consider in assessing whether a person of ordinary sense and understanding would have known the practices to be unlawful.


This ?a person of ordinary sense and understanding? is the wording upon which everything should ultimately hinge. This could be used as the main thrust in prosecuting any and all  persons who either authorized or engaged in any and all enhanced interrogation techniques.

So, logically, in their defense, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al must each make claim of ?legal status? either as ?a person of ordinary sense and understanding? or as ?a person of non-ordinary sense and understanding? , fully aware of  the spirit and the letter of both US Law and Geneva Conventions and therefore; knowingly in clear violation of both in providing any ?authorization? of  ?legal validity? . 

Or they must claim ?legal status? either as ?a person of ordinary sense and non-understanding? or as ?a person of non-ordinary sense and non-understanding? , fully or partially ignorant of either US Law or Geneva Conventions or both, who relied solely upon Legal Council, who themselves must likewise make the same claim to the same either/ or ?legal status?.

Simply put; each is either a knowing violator of the Law or each is an ignorant violator of the Law.

Whatever combination of possible claims of ?legal status? which any or all may choose to be recognized as, there is not any single claim of ?legal status? which places any of these persons in a position which is above or beyond either set of Laws, as each and all of these laws within both sets are also predicated upon this very concept of  ?ordinary sense and understanding?

ordinary  (adj.)

c.1460, "belonging to the usual order or course," from O.Fr. ordinarie, from L. ordinarius "customary, regular, usual, orderly," from ordo (gen. ordinis) "order" (see order).
That which is so common, or continued, as to be considered a settled establishment or institution.

The only wiggle here will be on what the courts "deem" to constitute a legal definition.

Of course, that could end up being something none of us might ever recognize. :'(






 believe that; the Earth is flat until such time as I stand within the Space Station and personally see that it is a Globe.
or that the Earth is a sphere until such time as I stand upon the Icewall and personally see that it is a Flat Disk.

?

Cinlef

  • The Elder Ones
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Re: War Crimes
« Reply #203 on: February 09, 2009, 06:22:34 PM »
Obama drops the ball on renditions and torture

Ave bossa nova similis bossa seneca to use dog Latin


A disgusted
Cinlef
Truth is great and will prevail-Thomas Jefferson

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cinlef is the bestest!

Melior est sapientia quam vires-Wisdom

Re: War Crimes
« Reply #204 on: February 09, 2009, 08:24:17 PM »
No gusto for sure.

Unfortunately, The Who's "Don't get fooled again" does yet apply.

Todays' ruling is especially dischordant as President Obama reitterates that, "No one is above the law", during his 1st Press Conferance.

This "state secrets" privilege essentially renders all  obligations under Law moot by effectively halting any and all relevent cases from being heard.

And yet, AG Holder indicates that DoJ will will fully investigate all cases wherein this privilege is being invoked.

It seems as their strategy may be that of "playing both sides against the middle".

 believe that; the Earth is flat until such time as I stand within the Space Station and personally see that it is a Globe.
or that the Earth is a sphere until such time as I stand upon the Icewall and personally see that it is a Flat Disk.